[Elemental] Cataclysm Discussion - Patch 4.3 - Page 24

Shaamah · 01/02/12, 8:10 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Fractional Mastery is always counted, same as Crit or Haste or Hit.

Do you have a source for this? I find it hard to believe blizzard would not update the tooltip inbetween 0.5 and 1 if it did behave the same as other stats?

aggixx · 01/02/12, 8:40 AM

A forum search would find proof of this easily.

Here's what I was able to find: Retesting hit table assumptions
Read to bottom of the page, if necessary.

aggixx · 01/03/12, 2:20 AM

Has anyone considered the viability of Resto 4p for Elemental use? I doubt the Resto 4p would come out on top of the Ele 2p + Ele 4p on Patchwerk (I wouldn't cross it off the list though) but for fights that have mechanics that favor the Resto 4p (high burst requirements, DPS requirements while moving), could it edge out the Ele bonuses in DPS?

Mainly speaking in regards to Hagara and Spine, although I could see it being possible on Morchok if you're assigned to crystal duty.

Edit: Some napkin math:

Resto 4p:
30% haste * 128.05716 conversion rate = 3,841.71 rating
3,841.71 rating * (20 second dur / 120 second CD) = 640.29 average rating
640.29 rating * 19.15% haste from gear^ = 762.91 rating

Ele 4p (uptimes from my own gear):
(24.8% 1stack uptime * 250) + (15.1% 2stack uptime * 500) + (31.7% 3stack uptime * 750) = 375.25 rating

Ele 2p (EM uptime from my own gear):
2000 mastery * (15 second dur / 74.69 second CD) = 401.66 rating

So comparing the two could be heavily boiled down to:
763 Haste rating (Resto 4-piece) vs. 375 haste rating and 402 mastery rating (Ele 2&4-piece)

^ = Since haste rating stacks with haste rating additively, whereas haste rating stacks with haste effects multiplicatively, you have to multiply the haste value by your percent haste from gear to get a true equivalence in rating.

Edit #2: I simulated the two against each other. The first test only was done with identical gear to compare the set bonuses:

← Click Here

Edit #3: The kind guys at SimC have implemented it by my request. Here's the sims redone with a less questionable implementation, the comparisons included are BiS w/ DTR, BiS w/o DTR, and my own character Yaenon (item level 392, no DTR).
Simulationcraft Results - Patchwerk fight
Simulationcraft Results - Hagara(esque) fight, length and feedback intervals taken from 10H Hagara WoL averages. P2 does not exist in this simulation, and P1 is extended to compensate.

Ramen · 01/03/12, 6:57 PM

Edit: Deleted for now, found a bug.

Pufftuff · 01/11/12, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by aggixx

Has anyone considered the viability of Resto 4p for Elemental use? I doubt the Resto 4p would come out on top of the Ele 2p + Ele 4p on Patchwerk (I wouldn't cross it off the list though) but for fights that have mechanics that favor the Resto 4p (high burst requirements, DPS requirements while moving), could it edge out the Ele bonuses in DPS?

Mainly speaking in regards to Hagara and Spine, although I could see it being possible on Morchok if you're assigned to crystal duty.

Edit: Some napkin math:

Resto 4p:
30% haste * 128.05716 conversion rate = 3,841.71 rating
3,841.71 rating * (20 second dur / 120 second CD) = 640.29 average rating
640.29 rating * 19.15% haste from gear^ = 762.91 rating

Ele 4p (uptimes from my own gear):
(24.8% 1stack uptime * 250) + (15.1% 2stack uptime * 500) + (31.7% 3stack uptime * 750) = 375.25 rating

Ele 2p (EM uptime from my own gear):
2000 mastery * (15 second dur / 74.69 second CD) = 401.66 rating

So comparing the two could be heavily boiled down to:
763 Haste rating (Resto 4-piece) vs. 375 haste rating and 402 mastery rating (Ele 2&4-piece)

^ = Since haste rating stacks with haste rating additively, whereas haste rating stacks with haste effects multiplicatively, you have to multiply the haste value by your percent haste from gear to get a true equivalence in rating.

Edit #2: I simulated the two against each other. The first test only was done with identical gear to compare the set bonuses:

← Click Here

Edit #3: The kind guys at SimC have implemented it by my request. Here's the sims redone with a less questionable implementation, the comparisons included are BiS w/ DTR, BiS w/o DTR, and my own character Yaenon (item level 392, no DTR).
Simulationcraft Results - Patchwerk fight
Simulationcraft Results - Hagara(esque) fight, length and feedback intervals taken from 10H Hagara WoL averages. P2 does not exist in this simulation, and P1 is extended to compensate.

If you're really getting such low uptimes on the ele 4pc, something is probably wrong. Currently, i'm getting roughly 77% overall uptime, with 60% of that being spent in the 1-2 stack range. What sort of stat weights are you using when 4pc is equipped?

^incorrect maths of mine, tho I'm garnering relatively higher uptimes for each stack (only 3-5% higher for each).

iamajellydonut · 01/12/12, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Shaamah

It looks like simcraft is not considering glyphs in overload dps somehow, and these results don't really change anything, except that the lavaburst glyph is upwards of 40 dps stronger than LB compared to what was originally thought/simmed. This dps difference will probably be larger for those with more haste and/or mastery than mine too since there will be more overloads. I am at Ilevel 393 without DTR.

I would like to point out two things... One, is that live testing confirms that a Lava Burst Overload proc is affected by Glyph of Lava Burst while Lightning Bolt Overload procs are not. Two, is that this is a recent change. A while back (six months ago) I ran most of the variables that might affect an Overload proc through the gauntlet, and the result was that neither glyph affected either cast's Overload proc. [Elemental] Cataclysm Discussion - Patch 4.3

I'm not sure what to do with this information, or what I expect anyone to do with this information, but there it is. And I am 99.9% sure of my tests way back when. This was a change.

Mahoraba · 01/16/12, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pufftuff

If you're really getting such low up-times on the ele 4pc, something is probably wrong. Currently, i'm getting roughly 77% overall up-time, with 60% of that being spent in the 1-2 stack range. What sort of stat weights are you using when 4pc is equipped?

^incorrect maths of mine, tho I'm garnering relatively higher up-times for each stack (only 3-5% higher for each).

Your armory indicates that you're using a Stat weight that favors Mastery instead of Haste, that would be the reasoning for you to have a higher up-time with the Elemental 4pc.

As for me I'm seeing the same as Aggixx, a fairly low up-time on the Elemental 4pc and me creating a sadface whenever it falls due to how underwhelming it makes the bonus feel when comparing it to just how awesome other classes set bonuses feel.

Edit: After reading a bit I got curious and ran a few sims just to see what swapping to a Mastery setup instead of my Haste setup currently would do, Mastery came out a whole 23 DPS above my current setup... I'ma thinkin' that's a bit too little of a dps increase to bother messing with it.

Ayö · 01/17/12, 12:56 PM

Hi friends, this is my first post on Elitist Jerks, so please be kind

I just reached 4pc elem, and wonder how it will change my rotation.
Indeed, when we are under "time rupture" buff, is the priority of ES 6-7-8 stacks decreasing ? Because ES cannot refresh this sweet 750 haste buff (No Elemental OVerload from ES), and is keeping it up for few seconds more better than loosing a Fulmination Charge ?
Thanks
Ayö

Binkenstein · 01/17/12, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ayö

I just reached 4pc elem, and wonder how it will change my rotation.
Indeed, when we are under "time rupture" buff, is the priority of ES 6-7-8 stacks decreasing ? Because ES cannot refresh this sweet 750 haste buff (No Elemental OVerload from ES), and is keeping it up for few seconds more better than loosing a Fulmination Charge ?

It does not change your rotation.

That said, your rotation as noted is wrong. You should be aiming for ES at 8-9 stacks, preferably 9 if you can manage it.

Dillerpoelse · 01/17/12, 6:30 PM

To add an additional question to the 4p bonus: is there an optimal amount of haste and/or mastery you want to get in order to statistically have a 100% uptime on the haste buff during pure LB spamming?

3 LB's per 4th second
With a cast time of 1.33 of LB with 33% mastery I will every 3. cast or 4th second get a proc.
But to get 1.33 cast time I need 50% haste or 6402.9 haste rating which is going to be hard to optain.

2 LB's per 4th second
Since mastery has shown to be pretty equal to haste, at some points a bit better, could stacking mastery to 50%>Haste be optimal since you, statistically, get 1 proc from 2 cast per 4th second meaning 100% uptime during LB spamming.

Is that a possible way to do it?

Or is the right way to calculate the average amount of procs/4th second? With this method I would simply just have to found out whether haste or mastery averagely results in more procs.

Base haste: 5% (WoAT) (cast time 1.9047619 seconds)
Base Mastery: 16%
Average amount of casts/4th second: 4/1.9047619 = 2.10000001 casts
Average amount of procs/4th second: 16% of 2.10000001 = 0.336000002 procs

Adding 1% of haste, then mastery

+1% haste
Haste: 5% (WoAT) +1% (cast time 1.88679245 seconds)
Mastery: 16% (still base)
Average amount of casts/4th second: 4/1.88679245 = 2.12 casts
Average amount of procs/4th second: 16% of 2.12 = 0.3392 procs

1% mastery
Haste: 5% (WoAT) (cast time 1.9047619 seconds)
Mastery: 16% (base) +1%
Average amount of casts/4th second: 4/1.9047619 = 2.10000001 casts
Average amount of procs/4th second: 17% of 2.12 = 0,357000002 procs

Additional procs from +1% haste: 0.3392-0.336000002=0.003199998 procs
Additional procs from +1% mastery: 0,357000002-0,336000002=0,021

More procs from +1% mastery than +1% haste: 0,021-0,003199998=0,017800002 procs

Correct?

ohcrocsle · 01/18/12, 2:58 PM

← Click Here

The first way is the proper way to think about it (you calculated incorrectly) because procs have different values. A proc with 1 stack is worth 500 haste for the next 4 seconds while a proc at 2 stacks or 3 stacks is worth 750 haste for the next 4 seconds. However, the uptime of your 3stack depends not only on your chance to proc a stack with 2 or 3 stacks, but also on your chance to have a 2 or 3 stack (which is dependent on your chance to proc at 0 stacks and 1 stack). Since all of your casts that can proc the buff have the same travel time, you can model it as a moving 4sec cast window.

WRT maximizing 4pc buff uptime, you want to stack mastery once you are at a haste point that maximizes the # of casts per 4sec window that you can achieve in your gear set. There are many haste "breakpoints" for this, but anyone with decent gear should be able to hit 2LB+LvB/4 at 0 stacks in a raid.

Whether haste or mastery gives you better overall performance is something that you should sim for each boss fight with your current gear set, spell priority, etc. 750 haste is pretty valuable, and investing points in order to maximize the uptime of your free haste buff seems good so I would guess that with 4pc mastery will generally win once you hit that 2LB+LvB/4 point.

Your calculations under the first section are incorrect because you have not used probability correctly. The probability of getting a proc after 3 casts with 33% mastery is not 100%. It is the inverse of the probability that you will not get a proc on 3 casts or 1 - (2/3)^3 = 1 - 8/27 = 19/27 or ~70%.

aggixx · 01/19/12, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pufftuff

If you're really getting such low uptimes on the ele 4pc, something is probably wrong. Currently, i'm getting roughly 77% overall uptime, with 60% of that being spent in the 1-2 stack range. What sort of stat weights are you using when 4pc is equipped?

^incorrect maths of mine, tho I'm garnering relatively higher uptimes for each stack (only 3-5% higher for each).

Nothing's wrong. As Mahoraba indirectly stated, I'm reforging my shaman Haste > Mastery as it yields marginally more / near similar DPS as Haste = Mastery. This is a guess as I haven't seen any data to prove this, but I would assume mastery scales your 4p uptime much better which means weighting the two stats equal or having mastery heavy gear would put your uptime higher.

@Dillerpoelse: If you run a stat scaling through SimC of haste vs. mastery you can see there aren't any noticable "plateaus" (technically not plateaus, but the point is conveyed nonetheless). I don't believe there's any optimal amount of either stat pertaining to the 4 piece, and even more so I doubt it's simple enough to math out. That said, hat's off to you if you're able to do such a thing.

ohcrocsle · 01/20/12, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by aggixx

Nothing's wrong. As Mahoraba indirectly stated, I'm reforging my shaman Haste > Mastery as it yields marginally more / near similar DPS as Haste = Mastery. This is a guess as I haven't seen any data to prove this, but I would assume mastery scales your 4p uptime much better which means weighting the two stats equal or having mastery heavy gear would put your uptime higher.

@Dillerpoelse: If you run a stat scaling through SimC of haste vs. mastery you can see there aren't any noticable "plateaus" (technically not plateaus, but the point is conveyed nonetheless). I don't believe there's any optimal amount of either stat pertaining to the 4 piece, and even more so I doubt it's simple enough to math out. That said, hat's off to you if you're able to do such a thing.

There is definitely optimal stats for maintaining 4pc uptime with any gear set, but whether those stats are also optimal for damage output is a different question answered only by simulation and more simulation.

Canith · 01/24/12, 5:54 PM

Speaking of Damage output, what, if any, changes to rotation/ CD usage needs to be made for the Madness fight. I feel we as elemental are a a big disadvantage due to us not receiving full benefit from the Spellweaving mechanic. I have heard that some Shamans are doing 'fine', but i felt that even pushing the limits of what i could do, i just could not keep pace with the rest of the DPS on that fight.

Mahoraba · 01/25/12, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Canith

Speaking of Damage output, what, if any, changes to rotation/ CD usage needs to be made for the Madness fight. I feel we as elemental are a a big disadvantage due to us not receiving full benefit from the Spellweaving mechanic. I have heard that some Shamans are doing 'fine', but i felt that even pushing the limits of what i could do, i just could not keep pace with the rest of the DPS on that fight.

Doing 'fine' is a delicate way of saying you're not going to beat out the classes that can use an instant cast AoE spells see: Arcane Explosion. I attempted using Earthquake a few weeks just to see how well it worked out and it just didn't work out at all, it only procs spellweave on the initial cast. Chain Lightning even though not the best it did much better as long as you don't target the blood in the front of the pack (every one targets that one, it dies way too fast) target the blood in the backish and you'll be able to CL without having to swap a target.

On the Green (Ysera) platform if you stand on the far left of the platform you will be in range of both arm tentacles, this lets you Dual-Flame shock for more then just when the Mutated Tentacle is up. (Note: I found trying to keep up three Flame shocks was a loss of DPS because of all the target swapping to do so, not to mention the camera spinning)