[Elemental] Cataclysm Discussion - Patch 4.3 - Page 3

Chandro · 12/18/10, 2:27 PM

So, am I to understand Chain Lightning is completely out of our single-target dps rotations? I always thought that its shorter cast time made it slightly better than LB, even despite that its chance to overload is a third of that of LB, and I thought the decrease to its cooldown would make it an even more advantageous tool.

Drovix · 12/18/10, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Chandro

So, am I to understand Chain Lightning is completely out of our single-target dps rotations? I always thought that its shorter cast time made it slightly better than LB, even despite that its chance to overload is a third of that of LB, and I thought the decrease to its cooldown would make it an even more advantageous tool.

The LB coefficient is higher Chain Lightning's making it better for single target DPS. I find myself leaning toward Chain if there are more than 1 boss/mob side by side for any period of time, because the bounce damage and additional Fulmination charges are outright more damage than just LB on one mob.

Rahdik · 12/19/10, 12:58 AM

In Wrath we used Chain Lightning on single targets earlier in the tiers because it was just plain better than Lightning Bolt but it scaled worse than Lightning Bolt so by the time we got to T10 (some T9) it was used less (removed completely when the cast time was below 1 sec). It was always used for the 2nd charge of Clearcast after a Lava Burst or when you knew you had to move and couldn't get off a Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst was on cooldown. It also fit in nicely with the Lava Burst cooldown, you didn't have to wait an extra .5 sec for your Lightning Bolt to finish so you could get off your next Lava Burst.

Lava Surge reduces the benefit CL had with fitting in between LvB cooldowns, and with the new queue system it may actually cost you DPS. The reduced cooldown on CL itself would mean more usage which means more mana spent and CL has always been less mana efficient than Lightning Bolt even under Clearcast. Spiritwalker's Grace and Fulmination make for better spells to cast while moving so CL is less useful in those situations.

Right now, CL only has it's place when there are multiple targets, not only because the damage itself outweighs the damage of Lightning Bolt and the mana cost, but also because of increased Rolling Thunder procs of the mana return and the LS charges.

Corny22385 · 12/19/10, 5:16 PM

If you only have 3 or 4 shield charges and you have a fresh glyphed flame shock on a target, is it better to earth shock or do another flame shock in the event you have to move?

Nidhoggr · 12/21/10, 10:42 AM

After seeing posts in the Resto thread about following Unleash Life with a casted heal into a queued riptide and getting the bonus healing on the heal, the riptide and the riptide hot I was wondering if Unleash Flame would work the same way with UF -> LvB -> FS granting the damage bonus to the lava burst as well as the FS impact and dot.

Here's a couple short logs from casting at a dummy for a couple minutes.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The first one is just FS and LvB with FT on my MH to get base damage. The Second is UF -> LvB -> FS, nothing else changed.
LvB, FS and FS dot damage are all seeing the same % increase so it looks to be working.

Jayded · 12/23/10, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by Corny22385

If you only have 3 or 4 shield charges and you have a fresh glyphed flame shock on a target, is it better to earth shock or do another flame shock in the event you have to move?

If your FS is fresh your shocks will be on cooldown anyway, cast UE. Else i'd say ES. Use the spreadsheet that was posted earlier in this thread.

Kegsta · 12/23/10, 6:16 AM

What are peoples thoughts on the current meta situation, at first I went with chaotic using int in red, haste in yellow and spirit in blue, but looked up a few of the top dps shamans on world of logs and noticed them using the 54 int and 2% mana one so I gave it a go and re-gemmed everything to +40 int / 20 Int 20 Haste / 20 Int 20 hit and my damage seems a lot better as does my mana conservation.

As far as trinkets go, any with +int seem to be the best, while the hit ones look nice, you can easily reforge any crit items into hit, but you can't reforge into int.
[Theralion's Mirror] and [Witching Hourglass] look to be a very nice combo for the next two weeks until [Darkmoon Card: Volcano]

biglew · 12/23/10, 8:04 AM

What is everyone thoughts towards using the spirit flask? I havent seen flasks mentioned yet, so i was wondering whether you guys thought keeping your gear at 300 rating (380 if your an alchemist) under the hit cap was a good idea? You also get the added benefit of reforging all your extra spirit on gear.

diospadre · 12/23/10, 8:22 AM

That's not a benefit, you'd be trading intellect for haste or mastery.

Cheesenips · 12/25/10, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by masanbol

The choice of FS over Flametongue has to do with making it easier to deal with the shock 9cooldown. If the interaction of those spells isn't a problem for you, you can always use a different glyph.

*** Edited, for authoring while drinking too much eggnog. Thanks Binkenstein! ***

Hard coded timers scale dps in haste brakets, right?

The base timer on FS is 18 seconds, with glyph (+9) it is 27 seconds.

Example (drawing on) Riptide with glyph:
Flameshock duration with glyph: 27 sec

# of Ticks	Time between ticks needed	Haste needed	Rating needed	Haste needed assuming WoA	Rating needed assuming WoA
9 ticks	N/A	0% Haste	N/A	N/A	N/A
10 ticks	2.7963 sec	7.2846% Haste	239 Rating	2.1758% Haste	72 Rating
11 ticks	2.4677 sec	21.5707% Haste	708 Rating	15.7816% Haste	518 Rating
12 ticks	2.2082 sec	35.8573% Haste	1176 Rating	29.3879% Haste	964 Rating
13 ticks	1.9981 sec	50.1426% Haste	1645 Rating	42.993% Haste	1410 Rating
14 ticks	1.8245 sec	64.4286% Haste	2113 Rating	56.5987% Haste	1856 Rating
15 ticks	1.6787 sec	78.7097% Haste	2581 Rating	70.1997% Haste	2302 Rating

Credit: Philondra, Resto Shaman Forums

When considering alternatives to the shock ticks, do we need to consider the break in the haste gap? That is, if we are in the middle of 1410 - 1855 haste rating do we compare the 2% crit to 13 ticks of flame shock?

The unglyphed version would appear similar to:
Flameshock duration: 18 sec

# of Ticks	Time between ticks needed	Haste needed	Rating needed	Haste needed assuming WoA	Rating needed assuming WoA
6 ticks	N/A	0% haste	N/A	N/A	N/A
7 ticks	2.6608 sec	12.748% Haste	418 Rating	7.3791% Haste	242 Rating
8 ticks	2.1779 sec	37.7474% Haste	1238 Rating	31.188% Haste	1023 Rating
9 ticks	1.8433 sec	62.7516% Haste	2058 Rating	55.0015% Haste	1804 Rating
10 ticks	1.5979 sec	87.7464% Haste	2878 Rating	78.8806% Haste	2587 Rating

[/quote]

Binkenstein · 12/25/10, 3:05 PM

No, the base duration is 18 seconds, so the glyph gives 27.

Kiklion · 12/26/10, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by masanbol

This is incorrect because you're missing that UE consumes a GCD on it's own, as does LvB, so if you want to use the logic you just did, you would have to compare UE + LvB to two LB casts, not just one. It doesn't stack up, and it won't unless its single-target damage or damage bonus is increased.

Alternately you could do what we did, which is take only the bonus damage gained by buffing LvB or FS with UE (do not include the base damage of FS or LvB themselves, since that would be present anyways), add it to the single-target damage of Unleash Flame, and compare that to a LB cast. Even factoring things in like DPCT, a LB is better.

There is one time when UE is useful beyond when on the move. If Flameshock is about to need to be refreshed, using UE on both the LvB and FS makes it worth it. Just using my numbers, UE does 3974 damage, LB does 7488 damage. I am going to ignore Lightning overload + Feedback here, assuming the .44 seconds saved (using my haste values without wrath of air 1550 haste rating, 12.1% haste) will equate the damage lost from not being able to proc those two. So the extra damage from FS + LvB needs to be greater than 3514.

My LvB crits for a min of 17.5k. My flameshock does 2073 + 12033 (glyphed) damage, so 31,606 damage total. Increased by 30% nets you 9,481.8 damage.

Obviously it is a small subset of the times when UE is up that it would be useful in a no-moving fight, but to say it isn't worth it ever I believe is incorrect.

diospadre · 12/26/10, 8:34 PM

I might not be understanding you, but UE only applies to your next fire spell, so you would only get the bonus on flame shock in your scenario, not both FS and LvB.

Suno · 12/26/10, 9:04 PM

Nidhoggr's post indicates that, much like Unleash Life and Riptide, UE can affect both FS and LvB with a single cast.

diospadre · 12/26/10, 10:31 PM

Yeah turns out I'm dumb and managed to skip some posts.