I thought I read the main purpose for this glyph was to smooth the FS/ES weaving? Provided you can manage that, what are we losing in terms of dps? Assuming every additional recast of FS could have been a LB:

Glyphed - 5 min - 11.11 FS casts
Non-Glyphed - 5 min - 16.66 casts
Net difference - Roughly 5 LB casts = ~80,000 damage (will vary) = 266.66 dps

Glyphed - 8 min - 17.77 casts
Non-Glyphed - 8 min - 26.66 casts
Net difference - Roughly 9 LB casts = ~144,000 (will vary) = 300 dps

Depending on stats (SP/Mastery/Crit) and the style of the fight, there could be a WIDE variance in actual results. However, the number are actually better than I had anticipated, with the added benefit of the smoother rotation.

I'm not sure I follow on this. First, Glyph of Flametongue is worth 250 dps? 1% crit = 125 dps? Secondly, you're suggesting if we were to drop a glyph, LvB would be the one to go?

Rough math:
Avg. Glyphed LvB = 22k
Avg. Non-glyphed = 20k
Avg. LB cast (using earlier numbers) = 16k
Avg. 8-sec gain from LvB over LB = 4k = 500 dps

Even assuming the gap between LvB and LB was only 2k, the glyph would be worth 250 dps NOT counting Mastery procs. I wouldn't see this as a valid swap, but assuming both glyphs were somehow equal, I at least get that you're using 250 dps as the baseline. Given that, I'm having an issue coming up with the same numbers for the differences. My math aligns with your initial chart involving just the glyph, but my numbers are different on the 2nd chart (with the talents):

336k per use
<5 min - 96,000/300 = 320 - 250 = 70 dps
6 min = 96k + 120k = 216k/360 = 600 - 250 = 350 dps
7 min = 96k + 240k = 336k/420 = 800 - 250 = 550 dps
8 min = 96k + 336k = 432k/480 = 900 - 250 = 650 dps
9 min = 96k + 336k = 432k/540 = 800 - 250 = 550 dps
10min = 96k + 336k = 432k/600 = 720 - 250 = 470 dps

I like your numbers better though And if we're losing ~130 dps from shields, why are you taking 150 dps off each mark on the table?

<5 min = -60 dps
6 min = 220 dps
7 min = 420 dps
8 min = 520 dps
9 min = 420 dps
10min = 340 dps

You're recommended spec didn't even include the totem reach, though it could easily be traded for Reverb or Convection. But yes, in the end, the real deciding factor may be the encounter. Quicker movement speed could help avoid damage and other mechanics on fights like Valiona, Atramedes, Council, etc. 15% increased healing received would help on any fight that has unavoidable AoE, which would include...well...every fight. The other potential issue with the Fire Ele, though, is his time on target. Even if he stays alive, he won't do a lick of good (I assume) on Atramedes' air phase or Conclave if you have to switch platforms.

Ain't gotta be so angry. Just figured if any place had people that just live to crunch numbers, a place with a forum devoted to Theorycrafting would have it.

Please refer to TotemSpot &bull; View topic - Elemental Rotation Calcs for the math I used (ie: it's in a big spreadsheet).

My "recommended spec"? Where did you get that from? I'm pretty sure in the last guide I wrote totemic reach part of the base spec, while also being listed as an "optional" one.

No, we don't "live to crunch numbers". The problem with people coming up with alternate gearing/spec/whatever ideas is that they just go "hey, here's my idea. Someone do the math plz". Most of the time we do things because they're useful to us, and we share them with everyone else.

PS: I'm not angry, you're just assuming that using proper grammar & spelling constitutes someone being angry with you.

I know Blizzard has made pets scale with their owners stats in general, but not 100% sure if they consider the Fire Ele a "pet". Should be an easy enough test, though. Drop him with your standard gear on, drop him a second time naked. If he has fewer attacks and a worse crit rate, you'll have your answer.

I think he just mentioned the Flametongue Weapon as that was supposed to be our 4th "optional" glyph, though I was under the impression it was supposed to replace Flame Shock if you had the FS/ES rotation worked out well enough. With the patch buffing LvB by 10%, I would certainly assume Glyph of LvB would be a must have.

Actually, it was my mistake. For some reason I thought you had posted the Elemental Shaman Cataclysm Guide on MMO-Champion, but it was someone else.

I surprisingly enough have never been to TotemSpot. I will certainly have to check it out.

Apologies on misreading your tone. But then again, that can be hard in text.

There are multiple guides at MMO-C, the one I have there is out of date and I can't edit it, but it should really be removed.

I have not seen it mentioned but if you got say 9 charges of lightning shield but still got cooldown on shocks since you had to refresh flameshock you can still start cast lightning bolt, the same works for chain lightning with say 7-9 charges which would else cap your lightning shield cap, however you must be quick with firing of fulmination when using chain lightning since it will hit faster than the lightning bolt, almost in an instant.

Anyway, if performed correct the dmg from fulmination will be done before the lightning shield charges rises from the chain lightning previously casted, meaning the charges will go:

9 -> chain lightning -> 9 -> fulmination -> 3 -> (aproximitley 4-5)


Don't know if its working as intended or if its because of latency but its a good way too smooth fulmination out while having shock on CD.

This works for lightning bolt because it has a travel time from cast completion to actually hitting the target while earth shock hits instantly. I'm not sure how it is working for chain lightning as it hits instantly as well.

Missing the 9 stack cap of LS is a DPS loss, but the mana-gain component will work over the cap. I don't think FS is very usefull when AoEing adds, because the DoT won't do it's full DMG and compared to CL / ES(7-9) the DMG should be much lower. Even with the safe crit from LvB, FS should be weaker because of the shared CD with ES
Some numbers from the dummy:

LvB ~ 20k

CL ~ 5,6k/10k (noncrit/crit) dmg taken from 2nd hit

ES ~ 23k / 38k (noncrit/crit) with 9 charges of LS

FS ~ 2,5k /5k (noncrit/crit) intial dmg

Casting FS+LvB should be at about 23k dmg and results in a 6 or 5 seconds shock cd. In the same time we're able to cast ES+CL with 23k (ES non-crit) + 3*5,6k (CL 3 targets, non-crit) = 38k DMG. These numbers are inaccurate because I hadn't enough time to cast more spells, but the difference between 23 and 38 should be high enough to compensate this.


Please correct me if i made mistakes, the numbers can be very incorect, just casted a few times

/edit: I forgott one thing about EQ vs CL: CL benefits from mastery, EQ doesn't

//edit2: I corrected some mistakes.

The updated PTR 4.0.6 changes mention that Elemental Overload procs of LB and CL will now be able to proc Rolling Thunder. I know it had been almost entirely confirmed in here that it wasn't working that way before, but this is a Blizzard confirmation of the fact I suppose. This should improve how well our damage scales with Mastery, though I'm not sure if SimC modeled Overload LB/CL as having the chance to proc Rolling Thunder already, or if it was modeling them as NOT proccing.

Despite being unable to cast FS after LvB and still get the 100% crit chance, I've noticed that you can in fact cast UE right after LvB and have it gain the 30% extra damage. I only tried it at max range so I'm not certain how close you can get before it stops working. I'm fairly certain that it is because the 30% extra damage comes in the form of a buff on yourself.

(edit) Yeah it was 4am that was just poor testing on my part, the buff was consumed so I assumed it got the benefit. I only tested it with a single LvB and had trinkets on so one may have proc'd off the FS. Upon further examination this morning it's just a waste. (Though I'm not sure if it wouldn't be anyways, because it uses a GCD either way you use it)

When you do UE you get a buff that gets used up when you do a fire attack. So if you cast LvB at max range and UE right after and get the buff before LvB hits but the buff doesn't get used up...I don't think you got the benefit from the 30% damage buff on that LvB.

Correct, you do not gain the increased damage. Just like LVB is not guaranteed to crit if FS is cast after(but hits before) LVB.
It has to be active for the affect to take effect before you cast your LVB in both cases. On the flip side, if you cast an LVB when FS dot runs off it will crit so long as your cast finishes before the dot runs out.

The calculations for your spells are not done when they hit, but when you cast them.