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Old 02/10/11, 6:50 PM   #16
ansga
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Shaman
 
Alexstrasza
BiS list - chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Simulationcraft DPS - 26449 DPS

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Old 03/04/11, 11:52 PM   #17
iamajellydonut
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Moshne View Post
-=PTR VALUES=-
?  Normal       Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.7909	2.6610	2.1790	2.6601	0.8676	1.3527	1.2034
Normalized	1.0000	0.9534	0.7807	0.9531	0.3108	0.4847	0.4312

? Movement     Int	Spi	SP	Hit	Crit	Haste	Mastery
Scale Factors	2.2899	1.9675	2.0105	1.9455	0.7423	1.1056	1.0949
Normalized	1.0000	0.8592	0.8780	0.8496	0.3242	0.4828	0.4781
Why is spirit higher than hit?

Last edited by Jessamy : 03/05/11 at 8:17 AM. Reason: User deleted own post, but I thought my response might be of general interest, so I'm restoring this.

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Old 03/05/11, 12:48 AM   #18
JRambo
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ysondre
BiS - chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

DPS: 26962 dps using Simcraft 4.0.6 release 11
DPS: 26301 dps using Simcraft 4.0.6 release 1

Last edited by JRambo : 03/05/11 at 1:07 AM.

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Old 03/05/11, 8:19 AM   #19
• Jessamy
Struck by Diax's Rake
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
Why is spirit higher than hit?
Both enhsim (for enhancement only) and simcraft produce stat weights the same way. I'll go through the way enhsim does it as an example, since enhsim EP values are always normalized to attack power.
1. Do a simulation run with your current stats. Produce a final single dps value.

2. Increase your attack power stat by about 1 gem of value. Do another complete simulation run, and produce another final single dps value.

3. Divide the change in dps by the change in attack power. This give the dps value of one point of additional attack power.
It's helpful to think of this as a derivative -- this is the slope of dps vs. attack power, with all your other stats constant, at the point on the graph where your attack power is your current value.

In theory we'd get more accurate results by taking the limit as delta(AP) -> 0. However this isn't a closed form function, but a simulated dps burn. Every time the sim goes through a run, it gets a different dps number. That's why enhsim runs are at least 1000 hours, and in the first post of the elemental BiS thread I require 10000 combat segments. By taking the mean we reduce RNG. However even with this much smoothing, our dps plots are jagged, and this would be exaggerated with a smaller delta.

There's a balance here. We want as small a delta(stat) as possible, to increase accuracy, but we want as large a delta(stat) as possible, to decrease randomness.
4. Repeat steps 2 & 3 for all the other stats we're interested in.

5. Normalize the stats. In the case of enhsim EP values, stats are normalized against attack power. 1 point of attack power is defined equal to 1. So divide all your dps values (slopes) by whatever dps increase attack power yields.
For example if 1 point of attack power yields 0.5917 more dps* then divide all your stat weights by 0.5917. This will map attack power to 1.0, and shift all the others accordingly.

*I pulled this number out of the air, but it was in the range of values I saw when I was enhance back in LK.
So with all that as an over explanation, let's get back to your original question. Why does the sim produce different stat weights for spirit and hit, when we know they should be the exact same?

This gets back to the randomness I mentioned above. The sim does 10000 combat segments with extra spirit. Then it does 10000 segments with extra hit. These runs will have almost the same dps results, but not quite identical.


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Old 03/05/11, 3:42 PM   #20
Kfactor
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Draka
There's two new trinkets coming out in the next patch:

Necromantic Focus: Necromantic Focus - Item - World of Warcraft : 480 more mastery as long as we keep casting!

Variable Pulse Lightning Capacitor: Variable Pulse Lightning Capacitor - Item - World of Warcraft : Another Convection-like ability at our fingertips.

Necromantic Focus looks like our next BiS trinket. For the sake of argument, the new version of the Pulse Lightning Capacitor may give it a run for its money.

I looked at a couple combat parses on World of Logs:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

From the last one I linked focusing on Dnt, I ran napkin math and I got a total of 239 spell hits. Of 239 spell hits, 140 of them were crits. That is a little better than 50% crit going on at BiS levels and that is not even including Flame Shock tick crits! So, the Variable Pulse Lightning Capacitor is capable of going off at least 10 times per encounter giving us an additional 111,100 to 142,800 damage done before taking crit into account.

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Old 03/08/11, 4:33 PM   #21
Moshne
Bald Bull
 
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Pandaren Shaman
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
Why is spirit higher than hit?
What Jessamy said explains slight differences due to modeling. I don't remember exactly when the program was updated, but it was generating incorrect hit values, but has since been corrected. It may have been fixed before that report, I don't recall.

The difference between a .01 change in hit/spirit is insignificant to the point of not worth mentioning, but it was causing issues when only modeling positive deltas and thus was remedied.

<Something Wicked> - 11/13 HM -25m - W/Th/Sun 8-12 CST LF Healer
www.somethingwickedguild.com

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Old 03/09/11, 11:44 AM   #22
menastra
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Daggerspine
Do the stats on the chardev bis setup include buffs such as Flametounge and our totems?

(Sorry new to the whole simulcraft thing)

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Old 03/09/11, 3:21 PM   #23
thordinrokbeard
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Kael'thas
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but simcraft is giving it's built in bis list 27147 dps. Chardev is chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta and this was done with simc-406-13.

Edit: DPS edited because I forgot to change the fight length.

Last edited by thordinrokbeard : 03/09/11 at 3:39 PM.

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Old 03/09/11, 9:43 PM   #24
• Jessamy
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
That profile is for a Troll shaman. When I change the race to Tauren, the dps drops. Using simc-406-13, I get:
26819.3 (the built-in profile with race changed)

26961.9 (the current listed BiS profile)
This illustrates an important point. The BiS list in the OP may not be the BiS list for your character. It assumes a race with no racial dps bonus, and it assumes alchemy and enchanting professions. The Goblin and Troll haste effects may change the relative worth of your stats, and the Draenei hit bonus will affect how you reach the cap. Hopefully despite its flaws, this thread helps increase understanding of class mechanics and how to use the simulation tools.

Last edited by Jessamy : 03/09/11 at 10:02 PM. Reason: Updated dps because the glyphs didn't copy over when I updated the profile.


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Old 04/07/11, 1:26 PM   #25
Orcheon
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Jessamy View Post
That profile is for a Troll shaman. When I change the race to Tauren, the dps drops. Using simc-406-13, I get:
26819.3 (the built-in profile with race changed)

26961.9 (the current listed BiS profile)
This illustrates an important point. The BiS list in the OP may not be the BiS list for your character. It assumes a race with no racial dps bonus, and it assumes alchemy and enchanting professions. The Goblin and Troll haste effects may change the relative worth of your stats, and the Draenei hit bonus will affect how you reach the cap. Hopefully despite its flaws, this thread helps increase understanding of class mechanics and how to use the simulation tools.
I believe the BIS set for a Draenei uses the exact same items, with some reforging.

chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm 27196

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Old 07/31/11, 9:50 PM   #26
 masanbol
Space Goats Coast to Coast
 
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Origins
Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Here's a BiS (non-Dragonwrath) setup that we're working with to generate stat weights. It operates under the assumptions that you can only use one Exalted rep ring (which was the case on PTR), and that the rep belt is not upgradable.

chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm

I'll do a Dragonwrath one as well once simc fixes their version of the staff, it still has old stats and I'm not sure about how it's modelling the proc.


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Old 08/03/11, 12:11 PM   #27
Drovix
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Shaman
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by masanbol View Post
Here's a BiS (non-Dragonwrath) setup that we're working with to generate stat weights. It operates under the assumptions that you can only use one Exalted rep ring (which was the case on PTR), and that the rep belt is not upgradable.

chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm

I'll do a Dragonwrath one as well once simc fixes their version of the staff, it still has old stats and I'm not sure about how it's modelling the proc.
Do you have an estimated EP value for DMC:V and Necromantic Focus? Infrequently I'll switch to Mirror for aoe-heavy fights if our good healers are afk for the night, and I've been testing which trinket to drop but normally outside circumstances skew the results.

Edit: Answered my own question: TotemSpot &bull; View topic - [4.2] Elemental trinkets DEP comparison spreadsheet

Heart of Ignacious (h) 1493
Fiery Quintessence 1592
Theralion's Mirror (h) 1612
Darkmoon Card: Volcano 1664
Necromantic Focus 1669
Fiery Quintessence (h) 1798
Necromantic Focus (h) 1894

Now keep in mind these are values from early July, so take them with a grain of salt now.

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Old 08/03/11, 4:32 PM   #28
 masanbol
Space Goats Coast to Coast
 
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Origins
Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Drovix View Post
Do you have an estimated EP value for DMC:V and Necromantic Focus? Infrequently I'll switch to Mirror for aoe-heavy fights if our good healers are afk for the night, and I've been testing which trinket to drop but normally outside circumstances skew the results.

Edit: Answered my own question: TotemSpot &bull; View topic - [4.2] Elemental trinkets DEP comparison spreadsheet

Heart of Ignacious (h) 1493
Fiery Quintessence 1592
Theralion's Mirror (h) 1612
Darkmoon Card: Volcano 1664
Necromantic Focus 1669
Fiery Quintessence (h) 1798
Necromantic Focus (h) 1894

Now keep in mind these are values from early July, so take them with a grain of salt now.
There is no heroic version of FQ currently in-game, so heroic Necromantic Focus + DMC:V are BiS according to current modeling. Don't underestimate FQ's int on-use, since it can be used with other int procs/buffs on a Fire Elemental to greatly increase damage beyond what sims will model.


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Old 08/10/11, 10:24 AM   #29
Far_sight
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Xavius (EU)
Ok here is some sim results: 38481

And BiS used are : chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm

Last edited by Far_sight : 08/10/11 at 10:43 AM. Reason: wrong meta gem - corrected now

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Old 08/10/11, 11:05 AM   #30
 masanbol
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Draenei Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Far_sight View Post
Ok here is some sim results: 38481

And BiS used are : chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm
There is no heroic version of Firemend Cinch available in-game. Also, I would question VPLC over Darkmoon card, especially for the reason that simcraft doesn't model its interaction with Fire Elemental and 2pc very well (and thus undervalues it).


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