[Resto] Raiding 4.1 - updating for 4.3 - Page 15

• Jessamy · 08/08/11, 1:31 AM

After some discussion with a guild shaman, I've come to the following conclusions (further testing required):

BotE can force CH to proc ELW, but only on the first target below 35% it hits.
BotE can force HR to proc ELW on multiple targets below 35%.
ELW has a cap of 15 simultaneous instances per shaman.
CH has a 5% chance per bounce to proc ELW on targets above 35% health. (Proc chance for single target direct heals is 20%.)
Limited testing demonstrates a similar chance (~5%) for each tick of HR for targets above 35%.
Riptide ticks can proc ELW, but chance is very low.

Aanzeijar · 08/15/11, 4:32 PM

When I did the first post I did not find any calculations for [Revitalizing Shadowspirit Diamond]. Last week Teshekru posted some napkin math on it on the german forums.

For reference, the current standard gem, [Ember Shadowspirit Diamond] gives 54 int for throughput, and 54 int and 2% mana for throughput. It was assumed that 3% crit heal would be a pure throughput gem and would fall behind in mana regen.

Now, 54 int will get you about 900 mana (54*15, kings, mail spec, ember). Assuming good gear, one has about 125k mana, which gives another 2500 mana. Over a 5 minute fight these are 58 mp5, for a 10 minute fight 29 mp5. Replenishment (0.5% of extra max mana) gives another 17 mp5. Changes in the int part of the regen formular account for another 8-9mp5 (thanks to Furinaux). So all in all this is around 54-84mp5 depending on gear and combat length. 54 spirit from Revitalizing ist about 35-37 mp5 from direct spirit conversion, and another ~7 mp5 per player from Mana Tide. The important point here is, that the mana from Ember is mostly static and will diminish with longer fights, especially Ragnaros hc.

Now for throughput. 54 int will convert into ~66 spellpower with kings/mail/10% buff (thanks to Maltese for pointing out). Our spells have about 0.5 coef/s (GHW: 1.28/2.5 = 0.512, HR: 0.1249 * 7 ticks * 6 players / 10s = 0.52, CH: 0.42*2.67/2.5 = 0.45), so before haste/mastery/crits/AA/earth this would be about 33 hps, with all that about 66 hps.

3% crit heal is calculated for the entire spell like the old one, so it increases the crit portion actually by 6%, just as the old one increased the crit portion by 9%. With my 20-25% crit, 85% crittable spells, the crit amount of the spells lies around 33-40%. 3% more for these is about 1% overall more healing, which is usually more than 100 hps, in fights like Beth'tilac or Ryolith far more. For 10mans single target heavy people AA inflates this even more, although overheal gets more of a problem there.

In conclusion, unless I really screwed up the math, Revitalizing is at least competitive with Ember in most situations and gets better for long fights and large raids. Before the 200% crit change the throughput would have been much closer (only about 0.7% increase overall), and my math ignores crit gain from int, priest hymns, but as a rough estimate, for any fight in the 10minute range (which currently are Alyrazor, Staghelm, to a lesser degree Beth'tilac and most definitely Ragnaros), Revitalizing seems to beat Ember in both mana and throughput.

Rhaegal · 08/15/11, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by Aanzeijar

In conclusion, unless I really screwed up the math, Revitalizing beats Ember in most situations. Before the 200% crit change the throughput would have been much closer (only about 0.7% increase overall), and my math ignores crit gain from int, priest hymns, or increases in the regen formula from 54 int (about 0.4%), but as a rough estimate, for any fight in the 10minute range (which currently are Alyrazor, Staghelm, to a lesser degree Beth'tilac and most definitely Ragnaros), Revitalizing seems to beat Ember in both mana and throughput.

Minor correction: I would not count Alysrazor on the list of long fights. So far I've only done the fight on normal, but I'm assuming the "stage 3" mana return is in effect on heroic as well, allowing even non-TC shaman to reset their mana to full every couple minutes. In that case, you would actually benefit more from the extra int, as you can max out that "extra" mana every time through her phase cycle.

khardan · 08/15/11, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rhaegal

Minor correction: I would not count Alysrazor on the list of long fights. So far I've only done the fight on normal, but I'm assuming the "stage 3" mana return is in effect on heroic as well, allowing even non-TC shaman to reset their mana to full every couple minutes. In that case, you would actually benefit more from the extra int, as you can max out that "extra" mana every time through her phase cycle.

You get an additional 3400 mana or so for using Ember, so that is about how much "extra" you get per the regen phase. The extra throughput is where Revitalizing shines (provided that math is correct), especially if you raid 10 man and AA really shines. Regardless of the length of the fight, the throughput is better on Revitalizing, and then for fights longer that 10 minutes it beats Ember on both counts, mana and throughput.

Furinaux · 08/16/11, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Aanzeijar

Now, 54 int will get you about 900 mana (54*15, kings, mail spec, ember). Assuming good gear, one has about 125k mana, which gives another 2500 mana. Over a 5 minute fight these are 58 mp5, for a 10 minute fight 29 mp5. Replenishment (0.5% of extra max mana) gives another 17 mp5. So all in all this is around 46-75mp5.

It seems you forgot to apply the regeneration gained from the Spirit Regen function towards Ember.

Edit: I forgot to apply the 50% combat modifier to regeneration. Ember would then be 9 more MP5, instead. 55-84 MP5; 18 minute fight: 29 MP5. Although Revitalizing still might be best for Ragnaros for both mana and throughput, at least once your raid is progressing in phase 4.

Aanzeijar · 08/16/11, 2:34 AM

Yeah so much for screwing up math. I calculated with 6620 fully buffed int, and about 3000 spirit, then it's closer to 8 mp5, but still. Editing post.

Edit: Maltese pointed out that I forgot to include mail specialization and kings into Ember throughput estimates.

Cabòóse · 08/17/11, 9:07 AM

My question is to you shamans that have adjusted your play styles to accommodate Firelands healing , how have you adjusted your stats?

1 - Is spirit still worth stacking for MP5 despite the fact that Mana Tide was nerfed to 200%?

2 - How much crit chance do you aim for to be worth sacrificing haste/mastery/spirit for more crit? In my opinion, if you can hit 20-25%, I think that should be enough but is it enough to pass up the extra MP5 during combat?

3 - After you have enough spirit and haste, your only option left is to reforge into crit or mastery. How do you balance those two? Obviously, if you're raiding Cataclysm, you can lay off the mastery and vice versa on Firelands, but how did you balance it?

• Jessamy · 08/17/11, 11:43 AM

You're not asking the right questions. A dps player has to consider hard caps for stats like hit and expertise; once you've reached that cap anything extra is worthless and should go into other stats. The healer situation isn't like that.

The haste cap (1.0s global cooldown) and crit cap (100% crit chance) are impossible to reach with the current tier of gear. So for all 3 secondary stats there isn't any "hit 20-25%" goal, after which you should stop. More is always better.

So your decisions for secondary stats are a lot more personal and tailored to the play style you prefer. Do you like the faster reaction available with more haste? Do you like seeing big numbers from mastery when your heals are most needed? Do you like the way that crit is a regen stat as well as a strong throughput stat? Or do you like to keep all 3 stats balanced, since as one stat increases the others become valuable?

Spirit is different. There is a soft cap, but it's hard to define. If you have enough mana to cast your heals, you've reached the cap. If you run out of mana and people die, then you have a few directions you can go. You can increase your mana pool, increase your regen (spirit, crit, trinkets, or the insightful gem), or make better use of telluric currents and improve your water shield uptime.

And finally, note that all throughput stats (except for haste) are efficiency stats. With more spell power, you will heal more for the same amount of mana. So maybe if you're running out of mana and you aren't able to heal like you want to, you should improve your regen -- but maybe you shouldn't.

Amilie · 08/19/11, 2:33 PM

It's not even a question of caps, really, but a matter of metrics.

DPS classes have a single metric to measure their performance: Damage Per Second. You evaluate gear and stat points based on how much DPS they give you when you plug them into a model. Caps are derived from this.

Healers don't have a single metric to measure their performance. You've got throughput (Healing Per Second), you've got efficiency, and you've got longevity. Not only do certain fights favor certain aspects over others, but within the same fight, at different moments, your concern may switch from one metric ("holy crap tank is about to die must heal fast") to another ("okay this is a lull, I need to use a cheap heal to regen as much as possible"). Add to this different raid compositions and assignments, and nothing's set in stone.

So the advice for healers, once again, is: try it out and figure out what works for you. If you kill bosses, congrats, you're doing it right.

Lyranax · 08/20/11, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cabòóse

My question is to you shamans that have adjusted your play styles to accommodate Firelands healing , how have you adjusted your stats?

1 - Is spirit still worth stacking for MP5 despite the fact that Mana Tide was nerfed to 200%?

2 - How much crit chance do you aim for to be worth sacrificing haste/mastery/spirit for more crit? In my opinion, if you can hit 20-25%, I think that should be enough but is it enough to pass up the extra MP5 during combat?

3 - After you have enough spirit and haste, your only option left is to reforge into crit or mastery. How do you balance those two? Obviously, if you're raiding Cataclysm, you can lay off the mastery and vice versa on Firelands, but how did you balance it?

As far as I see he didn't asked for caps. He asked for different playstyles and stats with it. I myself mostly a "fill up" healer. Not a HPS one. We do 10mans in normal, just started Heroics, and the Dru and Pala can take care of most of the healing but if they need a 3rd (Major or Ragna if the team is not as good to solve with 2 healer, takin' too much dmg etc.) I will jump in. I prefer the heavy mastery build, with maintaining the haste breakpoint. I even use the dps trinket as well, but if the fights require more mana, than I switch to spirit trinkets. You will see after 1-2 try whih one is better. My crit is around 22% raidbuffed which is fine for me. I prefer mastery because if somebody is nearly dying it gives a lot of help. I know haste is more reliable and constant, but if the raid is topped up, most of the time hots do their job.

Vice · 08/20/11, 4:46 PM

Mastery is still king as far as I'm concerned, with spirit a close second. I still stay away from crit since I am very comfortable with squeezing out a few LBs for TC. There is so much burst AOE damage in this tier it's very important to be able to heal that up quickly, which is where Shaman excel. Rhyolith p2 and Beth'tilac p2 are perhaps the best examples this tier of the role that Resto Shaman fit.

I will echo the trinket sentiment. Having a few trinkets to fit different play styles is important. I still use my Tsunami occasionally, but also have the Moonwell Chalice, Shard of Woe, and Eye of Blazing Power ready for the demands of the various fights.

Kemosabe · 08/26/11, 5:12 PM

Echoing the bit about hanging onto a good mana efficiency trinket such as Shard or Jar of Ancient Remedies. I've not found this tier of content (short of Heroic Ragnaros 25, which I've not experienced) to be particularly taxing on mana. The only fight I've ever personally experienced not making it to the end of the fight being able to more or less freecast (granted I'm referring to clean kills) was Beth'tilac at lower gear levels. This is without ever using a Telluric Currents spec. Swapping one of your throughput trinkets with an efficiency trinket more or less remedies any issues you might have.

My advice: Fulfill socket bonuses with purified demonseye gems where intellect stat loss is minimal vs. simply using brilliant gems and don't reforge out of spirit (until you feel comfortable with the amount you have and get really into min/maxing, but it's a fine line to walk), but I would not "stack spirit." It's a soft capped stat where it's great until you're not running out of mana anymore where it gets more or less useless, unless you're planning for some sloppy drawn-out kills, especially ones where you reincarnate/get combat res'd.

My personal gear choices are int>haste>mastery>crit keeping the soft-cap of spirit (which I've more or less been able to ignore) in mind for 25man raiding. Volumes have been spoken about the benefit of Haste in raiding so I'll let you look to those. My parses are fairly easily obtainable on WoL if you need any reference of performance under US-Mal'ganis>Elitist Jerks.

Novex · 08/27/11, 6:50 AM

During Heroic Firelands Progression I geared as follows:
Intellect > 780 Haste (I'm a Goblin) > Spirit > Mastery > Crit > Additional Haste

*I never reforge out of spirit.
*I always reforge to spirit if I wear an item without it.
*I gemmed for every socket bonus.

I did not spec for Telluric Currents.

I used Shard of Woe and Heroic Fall of Mortality (until I got Heroic Eye of Blazing Power).

I found that I never ran oom... Which made me ponder the benefits of experiementing with less spirit or trying out a haste build. However, because my healing output was so high, and none of our struggles during progression had anything to do healing, I stuck with what was working for me.

Since our Heroic Ragnaros kill about 2 weeks ago, I decided to try out a haste build. I managed to get about 2150 Haste. I geared:
Intellect > Spirit > Haste > Mastery > Crit

*I still never reforged out of spirit.
*I continued to reforge to spirit when wearing an item without it.
*I gemmed for every socket bonus.

I felt I was able to perform nearly exactly the same as I did in prior weeks in terms of output. Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy the feel for spending the extra mana that comes with casting faster. I specced into Telluric Currents in anticipation of spending more mana however, I used it very, very rarely. So while I felt as if I'd spent more mana, it wasn't so terrible at all. Just a personal feel. I immediately regemmed and reforged back to mastery before killing Heroic Ragnaros again. Wanted to play what I felt comfortable as.

The benefit of "saving people's lives with faster heals from haste" just doesn't seem as important as it was in previous expansions. There just aren't any instances of quick or continueous high raid or tank damage in comparison to the amount of healing 4 - 5 healers can do so easilly.

While there are many things I dislike about resto shaman when compared to other healing specs... the thing I enjoy the most is that our spells and talent designs allow us to value all of the secondary stats. Haste, Crit, Spirit, and Mastery are of use and worth considering for any resto shaman at any raiding level.

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I just wanted to share this information because I feel there isn't a large population of shaman raiding progressive content to help others through sharing their experiences. I understand that my healing experiences may differ dramatically from other shaman in different guilds at different levels, or other restoration shaman who heal with different healing comps and different healers of varying skill.

Once again, these are just my experiences and my personal prefferences. It works well in my guild for the gear our composition of healers uses during progressive content.

Goodluck all

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Lastly, while this is my first time ever posting on EJ, I'm no stranger to this forum. Regardless of the level at which I was raiding (be it in a rank 7000 guild 4 years ago, or now in a US 4th guild) I've made many a trip to EJ where others have put in the time to figure out haste breakpoints, trinket proc chances, etc. It is greatly appreciated.

Sixthy · 08/27/11, 11:30 AM

Good post, pretty much exactly how I feel and what I've done as well. I've noticed a lot of Shaman reforging their spirit to pretty low levels lately to boost whatever stat they're choosing to stack. To each their own and whatever works, but as you said and I've said for a pretty long time, we get a benefit in some for or another from every secondary stat available to us. I've tried pure stacking each stat individually for various fights and really never felt like anything out performed anything else. The only thing I've ever noticed is when I have to be careful with my mana and when I don't. From a personal standpoint, I prefer to not have to worry about my mana at all (which also means I absolutely cannot stand TC or even having to worry about casting lightning bolt when I'm healing), so I enjoy keeping my spirit as high as possible.

Outside of that, I still just reforge to 916 haste (which at this point that's purely a comfort thing for me - I've gotten used to casting at that exact speed and regardless of whatever breakpoint it is, EL I believe, I essentially only go to that point because it's what I've gotten used to), and then go the mastery > crit route. As I said, I've noticed absolutely no throughput difference when I've tried stacking different stats - only mana usage adjustments.

In other words, whatever works for you! (I really feel like Shaman healing hasn't been much of a mystery since Ulduar and there's nothing really 'out of the box' that you can do right now that's going to have any sort of significant impact on anything. I sort of like it, and sort feel like it's a shame at the same time).

Doxq · 08/28/11, 10:48 AM

TC is, in my opinion, situational at best. There are certain fights this tier such as Rhyolith and Majordomo Staghelm where it definitely proves useful (LBing the Spark and LBing with full concentration), but I just don't see it being like T11 where some Shaman would, on every fight, stop healing when it was necessary to weave Lightning Bolts in in a sort of 'rotation' aimed at regenerating mana as much as they used it. I also remember many people who practiced that ending fights with 10-40% mana left, which is obviously wasteful unless EVERY time they cast Lightning Bolt every raider was at maximum health.

I will definitely keep TC for the fights mentioned above as it allows you to spam Healing Surge and use Healing Rain on cooldown with absolutely no worries about going dry, but as for other fights I think keeping above 0% mana using passive regen mechanics (apart from Mana Tide and refreshing Water Shield) won't be an issue if you play correctly.