[Resto] Raiding 4.1 - updating for 4.3 - Page 2

pincus · 04/12/11, 4:17 PM

The Focus Insight bonus to Healing Rain only occurs while the 8 second buff is still on you. So the maximum you could possibly get from 1 shock is 4hps x 8 seconds = 32k healing per gcd (varying based on the number of ticks your current haste allows in 8 seconds). This also assumes you don't cast another heal within the 8 seconds after HR to consume the buff. So basically the only time FI becomes effective to boost HR is if you need about a quarter more healing than an un-buffed HR will do and you won't be casting any other healing spells within 8 secs. Read: FI is garbage for HR buffing.

dandux · 04/12/11, 4:31 PM

Great guide. The Glyph of Water Shield is linked incorrectly to Ghost Wolf, but very well written and informative.

I have followed the debate between haste and mastery very closely since the start and understand both sides from a 25 man aspect. In 10 mans however, crit has been an extremely important stat as well. In fact, through the final bosses of regular modes I found myself completely reforging to crit for the regen. I am curious how others have found crit holding up in HCs and what order you would place on crit, haste, and mastery from a strictly 10 man point of view?

Amiral · 04/12/11, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by pincus

The Focus Insight bonus to Healing Rain only occurs while the 8 second buff is still on you. So the maximum you could possibly get from 1 shock is 4hps x 8 seconds = 32k healing per gcd (varying based on the number of ticks your current haste allows in 8 seconds). This also assumes you don't cast another heal within the 8 seconds after HR to consume the buff. So basically the only time FI becomes effective to boost HR is if you need about a quarter more healing than an un-buffed HR will do and you won't be casting any other healing spells within 8 secs. Read: FI is garbage for HR buffing.

This gets fixed in 4.1. At least is fixed on PTR (#351 and others).

Edit
Also, The more predictable the damage from a fight gets, the better FI gets - Especially if there are periods of "slack".
It is my understanding that most HC fights have so high general damage that lulls in healing are unpredictable, and thus best use for something which always gives the same, but possibly lower benefit (TC), while some normal fights are predictable with notable periods of slack. A small thing to note is that if you use FI in a good way, you'll also be able to slack more due to the added healing (assuming your group has enough overall healing).

Maltese · 04/12/11, 5:45 PM

In my testing on the PTR I did notice that the first tick of healing rain is not getting boosted by Focused Insight, but every tick afterwards did reguardless of spells cast after healing rain was dropped.

Synkar · 04/13/11, 4:47 AM

Spiritwalker's Grace

Spiritwalker's Grace is a cooldown that allows us to keep on casting while moving, jumping or getting thrown around. The duration was increased to 15s in 4.0.6. It may be cast while casting other spells, but there is a known bug that Healing Rain will get interrupted when Spiritwalker's Grace is cast. (TODO get source for this, not sure myself anymore)

Confirmed today. Healing Rain cancels as soon as Spiritwalker is cast.

Fauh · 04/13/11, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by dandux

Great guide. The Glyph of Water Shield is linked incorrectly to Ghost Wolf, but very well written and informative.

I have followed the debate between haste and mastery very closely since the start and understand both sides from a 25 man aspect. In 10 mans however, crit has been an extremely important stat as well. In fact, through the final bosses of regular modes I found myself completely reforging to crit for the regen. I am curious how others have found crit holding up in HCs and what order you would place on crit, haste, and mastery from a strictly 10 man point of view?

Interestingly enough I found the case to be the exact opposite in our 10-man with me having the best mana-sustainability while lagging behind in throughput. We were at the time rolling with a Holy Priest, A Holy Paladin and I with all of us close to full 359 gear at the time with me behind farthest behind gearwise having recently switched from Enhancement.

Now I don't want to jump to conclusions but I think that the stat priority you go for will be greatly dependent on how you heal in your raid. Since we had a Holy Paladin he was doing most of the tankhealing with me keeping hots and earth shields up on the tanks while using mostly HW and the occasional CH and/or HR with some time to spend on regen via TC which lead me to prioritize things like mastery and haste. (Especially since we're just starting out hardmodes and mastery is godlike for fights like Halfus and Chimaeron HC)

However I imagine that if you spend alot of time casting HS and chaincasting GHW I imagine crit would prove to be a better route to go since you will likely need the extra regen.

TLDR: My assumption is that the secondary stats you go for will be determined by your own personal style of healing and/or your healer-role.

Amilie · 04/13/11, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Synkar

Confirmed today. Healing Rain cancels as soon as Spiritwalker is cast.

That wording's a little vague and unnecessarily alarmist.

The bug is that if you have the HR targeting circle up, casting SG will cancel the targeting circle. However, using SG before casting HR, while casting it, or after it's been cast, will not affect it at all.

This happens even if you use a /cast !Healing Rain macro.

grishaan · 04/13/11, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Amilie

That wording's a little vague and unnecessarily alarmist.

The bug is that if you have the HR targeting circle up, casting SG will cancel the targeting circle. However, using SG before casting HR, while casting it, or after it's been cast, will not affect it at all.

This happens even if you use a /cast !Healing Rain macro.

That's not what he is referring to. I think what he means is that if you're casting HR (the 1.x sec cast) and activate SWG while casting, the casting of your spell is interrupted. When you complete the cast and activate SWG afterwards the shiny effect stays on the ground and still heals. It's just about the interrupt of the actual cast of HR (which in contrast to chain heal for example becomes interrupted whenever you activate SWG).

Amilie · 04/13/11, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by grishaan

That's not what he is referring to. I think what he means is that if you're casting HR (the 1.x sec cast) and activate SWG while casting, the casting of your spell is interrupted. When you complete the cast and activate SWG afterwards the shiny effect stays on the ground and still heals. It's just about the interrupt of the actual cast of HR (which in contrast to chain heal for example becomes interrupted whenever you activate SWG).

I specifically tested all occurences mentioned in my post. The only time HR was cancelled was when I had the targeting circle up. Firing up SG while casting HR did not cancel it.

SammyIamToday · 04/13/11, 7:33 PM

Originally Posted by dandux

Great guide. The Glyph of Water Shield is linked incorrectly to Ghost Wolf, but very well written and informative.

I have followed the debate between haste and mastery very closely since the start and understand both sides from a 25 man aspect. In 10 mans however, crit has been an extremely important stat as well. In fact, through the final bosses of regular modes I found myself completely reforging to crit for the regen. I am curious how others have found crit holding up in HCs and what order you would place on crit, haste, and mastery from a strictly 10 man point of view?

I find myself almost exclusively stacking crit at this point. I'm at 21% crit before raid buffs. I'm just now starting to back out of it slightly and go for mastery. I have haste a little past the soft cap (easy for goblin) and that's where I've left it (reforging out of it when possible).

We're 4/13 with heroic 10m strict only. I tend to fill in as a jack of all trades type healer. We have a holy pally that focuses on tank healing and a resto druid that mostly focuses on raid healing while I fill in for both. I tend to top our meters with the least overhealing and the regen from crit is the only way I can stay with mana and do it so far. I must admit I haven't tried a mastery heavy build yet (waiting for 4.1) though. I also tend to get the druid's innervate on CD (we also have a feral druid that gives the pally his).

Once I finally got my 4pc T11 bonus, I seemed to be able to finally start backing off of crit for mastery and not go OOM every fight. My item level is still on the low side though at 355.2 (guildox).

Migosha · 04/14/11, 11:28 AM

On the Glyph's topic, I'm using Earth Shield, EarthLiving (more interesing than Riptide in a 25 man raid) and Water Mastery. For people having the same kind of setup as me there may be a change with 4.1 according to the latest patch note :

Shaman :
* Earth Shield healing done by Restoration shaman has been reduced by 20%.
* Nature's Blessing has been improved to 6/12/18% bonus direct healing on Earth Shielded targets, up from 5/10/15%.

The first effect of those changes : the base effect of Earth Shield is reduced by 20% but the Heals on our EarthShield's wielder will be improved by 18% instead of 15. For Shamans who are on tank duty they should get a little up overall with those two changes. For Shamans who are mainly on raid duty, you'll get some lost on your healing done (Earth Shield is around 5-6% of our healing done, so no reason to worry too much).

The second effect those changes bring is that it may free the Earth Shield's Glyph from our "must use" Glyph list, making using Riptide, Water Mastery and EarthLiving a better choice, or at least an equivalent choice in term of throughput.

If I take our last raid as a basis : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I'm Glyphed with Earth Shield and not with Riptide. You can consider my Earth Shield as having a 95-99% uptime.
* Total Earth Shield effective healing done : 2908360, meaning it would be 2908360/1.2 = 2423633 in 4.1. Meaning the Gylph's effect would be : 2423633-(2423633/1.2) = 403938 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
* Total Riptide's HoT effective healing done : 2115330. Let's assume the additionals ticks with the Glyph would have the same overhealing, we got 2115330*1.4-2115330 = 846132 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
I tested with 3 other Logs and got the same result : on the complete raid the Riptide's Glyph apport is nearly twice the Earth Shield's one.
Keep in mind that it's only raw maths on a few raid logs and please correct me if my calculations are totally wrong.

P.S : Thanks to Aanzeijar for accepting the task of managing this topic, Jessamy can be a difficult master to handle, be careful if you ever see him with a whip

Amilie · 04/14/11, 12:07 PM

First, the patch notes don't say a 20% nerf to ES's base heal. They say 20% nerf, period. This would imply a 20% nerf to the coefficient too, but since I'm not on the PTR, I can't test for sure. (And could very well be wrong here.)

But more importantly, you're making the incorrect glyph choice. You've got four usable Primes:

Earth Shield (throughput/efficiency)
Riptide (throughput/efficiency)
Earthliving Weapon (throughput)
Water Shield (Mana regen)

The first question you should be asking yourself isn't "do I want Earth Shield or something else?" -- it should always be "do I need the extra Mana regen from Water Shield at all?"

If you do need more Mana regen, then you should sacrifice the only throughput, non-efficiency glyph for Water Shield, which would be Earthliving Weapon: after all, you're trying to maximize your Mana, and the other two glyphs improve your efficiency. If you don't need the Mana regen, then by eliminating one you've automatically picked the other three.

(Caveat: in 10-mans, Earthliving Weapon tends to contribute a lot less to your overall healing. Using Water Shield in 10-mans makes more sense. But not in 25-mans, which was the topic it seemed.)

CaseyTheRetard · 04/14/11, 12:43 PM

How can you classify Earth Shield and Riptide glyphs as contributing to efficiency, but not the Earthliving glyph? All three glyphs have the same effect, namely increasing the amount of healing output by the affected spell.

Amilie · 04/14/11, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard

How can you classify Earth Shield and Riptide glyphs as contributing to efficiency, but not the Earthliving glyph? All three glyphs have the same effect, namely increasing the amount of healing output by the affected spell.

I define efficiency as the amount of healing done per Mana spent. In the case of Earthliving Weapon, it doesn't save you Mana, because the effect doesn't cost Mana in the first place.

Of course you could be shaking your head right now, telling yourself, "But more healing on ELW means less healing to do with other spells!" And you'd be correct if a) you could pick ELW targets, and b) the glyph's effect wasn't so minimal on a target per target basis. That extra ~1K healing, in an absolute best-case 4.1 scenario where Mastery affects it, isn't going to stop you or anyone else from tossing another heal on the person anyway. In fact, looking at a few 10-man and 25-man logs for fights other than Chim, the overhealing for ELW tends to hover between 16% and 19%.

Rhaegal · 04/14/11, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Migosha

If I take our last raid as a basis : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis. I'm Glyphed with Earth Shield and not with Riptide. You can consider my Earth Shield as having a 95-99% uptime.
* Total Earth Shield effective healing done : 2908360, meaning it would be 2908360/1.2 = 2423633 in 4.1. Meaning the Gylph's effect would be : 2423633-(2423633/1.2) = 403938 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
* Total Riptide's HoT effective healing done : 2115330. Let's assume the additionals ticks with the Glyph would have the same overhealing, we got 2115330*1.4-2115330 = 846132 hp gain for the Glyph over the whole raid.
I tested with 3 other Logs and got the same result : on the complete raid the Riptide's Glyph apport is nearly twice the Earth Shield's one.
Keep in mind that it's only raw maths on a few raid logs and please correct me if my calculations are totally wrong.

In addition to Amilie's point (which really is the main thing to consider when choosing glyphs), by your own math, your Earth Shield glyph is currently increasing your healing done by 484727 over the whole raid, which would drop to 403938 in 4.1. Either way, the Riptide glyph is either nearly or just over double the potential healing done, again assuming equivalent overheal, in addition to allowing you to set up another potential target for bouncing improved Chain Heals during high raid damage phases. Even if for some reason you wanted to stick with the Water Shield glyph, your math doesn't support Earth Shield being a better choice than Riptide now, but not in 4.1.