The main issue is that it doesn't line up with any of our cd's correctly. Also, it may sim higher depending on your gear setup. Personally I'm still using the rag heroic Matrix in my "normal" setup, since Vial refuses to drop.

Nightstarrzz, I don't use/have the Agility Use Trinket so I'm not losing nearly as much as you make it out to be.

Well, you still lose 5-10 seconds uptime on wolves during BL. That's quite a few extra MW procs wasted, without mentioning the extra proc munching during your other globals at start.
We kill Ultraxion heroic in about 4min45 seconds, which means I can pop wolves at 5 seconds, at 2min5 sec, at 4min5sec, and they expire just before the kill (by about 10 seconds).

I don't really see WHY you would pop them before?

Also, you have a haste proc trinket (I suppose you couldn't get better), and wolves scale with haste. All the more benefit to pop it a few seconds into the fight.

A note for Hagara (and a bit of Zonozz).
You can spec out of Improved Shields and pick up Earthen Power, this makes Frozen Tempest a complete faceroll (or rather more of a faceroll), you just have to drop Earthbind wisely in the middle of your raid when its needed, instead of spamming it.
Grounding Totem eats Shattered Ice, as well as Flails' attack on Zonozz black phase. Also you can interrupt Eyes, even though theres no cast bar. Trashes before Zonozz work exactly the same, so feel free to check it out.
Also for Ultraxion (or any boss really). You can pop wolves 1s before the pull - if you have Resto 4pc. Yeah, its like cheesing mastery with Fury Warrior.

My guild does hagara 25hc with all casters in the middle and leaving only melee to run laps around the crystals, I found it to be a significant dps increase to simply camp 1 crystal instead of running with the pack. It is doable if you stand right at the edge of the bubble and ghost wolf inside it to avoid the spikes, you will get hit by 2-3 ticks max so it's relatively easy to survive.

Tip for Spine Heroic:

I finally seem to have nailed how you can make your Searing Totem reliably attack the Tendon:

1. When the Amalgamation is about to die, I drop my totems again.
2. When the Tendons are targetable, I do a SS followed by a Flame Shock and voila, the totem is shooting the tendon.

This does not work if you drop your totem again once the tendon is up.

So just quickly, when we do HM Hagara we tend to run into what seems to be a bug with the South East beacon in the lightnening phase where it will jump to the people chaining to it and it wont then jump to the beacon itself. Is this a known bug or is there something we can be doing wrong? (We even have ppl standing ontop of the beacon.

We've experienced random flukes like this, not necessarily just on the SE beacon. The only thing that seems to sometimes help is to "wiggle"/quickstrafe side-to-side, but it's not a guaranteed thing.

Regarding spine burning tendons, the main thing is to not have FS up on any other targets as the tendon spawns. Use LL first, it can confuse the totem if you FS and then LL right after, spreading the dot. SS and FS might work fine as well, though, I've been doing it the other way around to be sure.

We've had similar issues with Hagara Lightning beacons. What the runners have deduced from trial and error: the bug is that once a person is targeted as the first conduit to start the chain, it won't accept you as any other part in the chain. Example being (in a 10 man, 2 runners a side), our mage blinks past the warrior to run to the next position for himself. If he gets too close to the beacon and it zaps him, it won't zap the warrior in stead regardless of the mage leaving the area and the warrior stacking on top of the beacon in a rage.

Way to beat the bug - make wider arcs as you move around the conduits to avoid being targeted first if you aren't in the first position. if you were supposed to be second (or after) and it chooses you first, you have to change on the fly and make it work with how it's charging people.

This is all conjecture by our runners, so take it with a grain of salt.

That's definately right, the same headache i am suffering. The mechanism is, in an encounter like Ultraxion, ST is never going to attack unless you "reapply it after the target is activated and FSed". And the worst thing is, SS is not as "attractive" as FS! (SS-ST, ST still doesnt work!)

I have tried some different sets of starter for the precious pull dps and am struggling on deciding the following 2 options:
a. UE-FS-ST-SS-LL -LB-ES-SW-BloodLust(or mage does it for team)
b. SS-LL-UE-FS-SS-ST -LB-LL-SW (skip available ES, cant be later to release wolf, ask mage for bloodlust)
Any option #C available? pls advice.

PS: Never think about FS before UE for an earlier ST redrop (like FS-ST-SS-LL), because Wolf will make you lose much more to fix with another UEed FS.

I like option #a, holding the following logic:
1. According to queue, ST0 is top priority.
2. To let ST work, i need to FS first.
3. In fact with "PS" mentioned, UE will be the starter.

#b is somehow competitive, its logic is to use enh's two hardest hitter SS & LL ASAP.

Anyone can give comments?

In terms of opener in ultraxion and madness Heroic, I tried several variations and found this to be the highest. I was rolling with 2pt12/2pt13.

I lay dow totems, call wolves and prepot in the 5 sec before pull.
I started with SS-LL-ST(doesnt start attack on pull), UE Flame shock, if ure lucky you get 5xmael to do a LB to fill for another SS, standard after this.

Denied. My opener on that fight is usually SS => LL => ST.

However, I have noticed that RARELY the ST totem won't attack unless FS is used prior to it being dropped.

I also like to delay wolves until a WF proc (with SS + LL used and totems down), find it to be most beneficial in terms of MW optimization, along with ability CD. (Note : I'm not the one that does BL, so I have 1 extra spare global).

This seems to happen with me as well. Every time I have tried SS-LL-ST I notice after a few seconds that there are no stacks and have to redrop ST.

On a slightly different note, for those of you using the T13 4pc (I have 4pc, 3 normal and 1 LFR, but prefer 2 T12 HC + 2 T13 Normal at the moment). Do you delay your wolves until after hero on something like Ultraxion?

If I use the 4pc, I notice that I waste a lot of MW5 procs if I use it during hero. We already get quite a few extra MW procs during hero because of the haste burst.

Another trick that I picked up from someone at mmo champion for those with a resto 4pc off set was to use the SWG proc as part of your pre-pot to get the 20 second haste buff and then macro it to equip your enhance gear afterwards.

Edit: I think is was greez. He eluded to it above but posted about it in more detail on the mmo forums.

Yeah it was me. Thing about it is that Wolves dont benefit from resto 4pc. I dont have enh 4pc so cant really comment on amount of wasted MW procs during BL. If its really that bad, BL+SWG should be enough to provide enough procs to fill out remaining GCDs. Then again if you delay Wolves they wont benefit from BL so its less procs than you could get.

Im really not sure whats the best way to handle it, Id need my enh 4pc first to do some testing first.

My opinion may matter little and less, but I'd go with wolves before BL is used, and pretty much spam LB's as soon as I get 3+ stacks (which is pretty much always).

What I tend to to use is : SS - LL - LB - filler (UE) - LB - filler (FS) - LB - SS - LB - LL - LB (etc), this is usually the case with wolves + BL up. Since it's RNG; you can't rely on it 100%. I still feel like a lot of the gameplay of enhancement comes from "feeling" rather than knowledge. (of course basic knowledge and understanding of the class is required).

You can find my ultraxion logs on World of Logs (if you're interested to go further into the rotation - currently ranked 1 on both normal and heroic, 10 man ).

I am seriously envious of your weapons and trinkets

You are pretty much matching your Simcraft DPS in those fights. I normally find myself a little over 1k behind. What sort of latency do you play with? I am interested in how much latency effects the play style with the T13 4pc. I use 2+2 for precisely this reason. This will obviously change if I get a few T13 HC items. I quite often play for a 500 latency. The unpredictable nature of the MW procs favours reaction time which is in part effected by the player latency. I am assuming the procs are determined server side or am I wrong there?

Another question, why do you use LB's on 3+ stacks with the wolves out? Wouldn't it be better to use the GCD on a filler (FS/UE/ES) and wait for the extra procs? Why does the priority change for the wolves?

The 4pc with 3 x Normal and 1 x LFR sims our slightly (about 300dps) better than my 2+2 which is 2 x 391 + 2 x 397. My problem is that my gut feel is that 2+2 is better for the DS fights. That should change with HC items just because of the stat creep. Maybe not. 2+2 should scale better with hero and the resto 4pc at the start which the sims can't take into account. Would love it if someone could add that to a sim

I also have a problem with the long CD nature of the 4pc. For example, DW, you could end up wasting part of the buff if you pop it at the end of a platform or losing out on some of the benefit because you hold it back for the next platform.

I think for the most part the 2+2 setup is only really worth while using on static fights where you are able to LL on CD with a 5stack of searing totem there. So you'll probably only find that Ultraxion is worth while using it on.

One might think so, but now that I looked a bit closer, it seems that Nightstarzz has higher LL damage than I do. Lower count, but bigger crits. Which I dont really understand, it could be some RNG factor, but its t12 2pc that comes into play here. Is the stat gain on heroic t13 really that huge? (Im using 410 chest+shoulders with 391 gloves+legs)

Besides wouldnt that mean that double 2pc setup will beat t13 4pc on any fight with enough static combat/burn phase longer than Wolves duration?

Also Gray, I stopped using sims a while ago, Id just rather go hit a dummy for a while and see what feels better with my playstyle. Which is why I cant really refer to any of that, I dont even know what dps my gear sims out to. Point is, the gain on, for example, helm+gloves (pieces without additional gem slots) cant be better than t12 2pc.

Of course you will get some non-5st LLs in some fights, but the question is, how much would that matter compared to 4pc, which I dont really see as a great boost in LB count. Unless Nightstarzz isnt using resto 4pc, or I am completely missing something.

Edit: Think I am missing something. The first part can be ignored, Nightstarzz got fed with TotT, think thats enough to cause that difference.

I'd honestly go with Vial any day on a single-target fight that requires little AoE (Morchok, Zon'ozz, Hagara, Ultraxion, Warmaster).
I play with about 80 latency but have about 0.5-1 sec delay on most abilities (Fail to see how, but still).

Why do I use LB on 3 stacks with wolves out? Well, I use 4-set, so the stacks generate extremely fast. It's a personal preference, and I actually tried to Sim it, and it came out about 130 DPS higher to add that priority (also added MW_3 without wolves under UE+FS, before ES).
The fact of wasting MW procs leads to a dps loss (depending on the cooldown on SS/LL) - using MW_3 to sync with SS coming off CD feels like a bigger gain (since SS has a chance to give me new stacks of MW).

Again, it's the way I feel most comfortable playing with, and it seems to pay off in "real time" situations.





I'm sorry, I forgot to mention the fact that I do NOT have the resto 4 -piece. I really can't give any input for that.
However, I remember when I was still using 2-piece t13 and 2-piece t12, and I remember that my dps increased with 4-piece t13 on Ultraxion even though I was using 1 LFR item (head). - That was the only item I changed. I checked the RNG factor and it was roughly the same, just a lot more LB's, there was about 1.5k dps difference.

I find that set bonus to be extremely good on stationary fights, especially for spike damage in the opener. Main reason being that you never have any downtime in your globals. It's pretty much LB - filler - LB - filler (etc), apart when SS and LL both come off cooldown at the same time in which case it's SS - LL - LB - filler - LB.
On Ultraxion, my exact opener is :
Totems - Prepot - SS - LL - Wolves - Totems - UE - LB - SS - FS - LL - LB.
(sometimes the order between UE and LB is reversed, depending if I got MW procs)






Indeed, you're correct in the fact I got fed with TotT. The funny part is that I had almost the same dps without the previous time.
The reason as to why my LL crits higher is that I usually delay it slightly to sync in with tricks (when I'm getting them). Also, I'm using Matrix Restabilizer (heroic), which boosts Lava Lash damage significantly (roughly 26% more fire/nature/frost damage - when it procs).
Also, if for example I got 1 second left on TotT and I have SS and LL up at the same time, I will prioritize LL (I may be wrong on this one, but it just "feels" like the 10% benefit on that is much more important than the gain off SS - especially if it crits).

Also, I was running with 3 410 and 1 397 1 384 tier items, but yesterday I filled in my last tier missing - so got 5/5 410, which doesn't really leave me any doubt with what I'm going for ^^.

And I'm not using Resto 4-piece either. Still trying to collect some ele gear first as that's my raiding off-spec (when we lack ranged on fights like Warmaster / Hagara)
However, I'm keen on getting the resto 4-p to try and see how much of a dps increase (and spike damage on the opener) it really amounts to.

Not sure i this has already been posted, and it's only minor if anything.
The Tier 4 - Enhancement 2 Piece still works. Equip 2 piece, precast SoE, equip normal gear. Free 12 strength for whole raid for 5 minutes. As said, very minor increase, but handy all the same

Cyclone Breastplate - Item - World of Warcraft

Ah yes, I completely ignored Matrix, not sure why.

Thing about resto 4pc is - Im using it, and I dont have enh 4pc yet - overall I casted only 2 less LBs than you did. Same night, 11s longer fight for me. So my opener doesnt really differ that much, with BL+SWG I might be getting even more LBs than you do with BL+Wolves4pc. And even though I wont be able to use it on all bosses with such efficiency, I cant really see how 4pc increases MW procs good enough to make up for 25% damage difference on LL.

With resto4pc and BL, MW_1 LB has a casttime of 1.1s - which basically allows you to spam LB on any free global, its really damn good. Without BL I think its 1.4s which is still good enough to put it over ES/FS - Im using UE over it though.

Still my main concern is, I cant see t13 4pc being a great bonus, same as I cant see stat gain on helm+gloves being enough to offset the t12 2pc. On any DS fight, except maybe for Spine.