[Resto] It's Raining Heals 5.3 - Page 2

Judgejoebrwn · 10/03/12, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Therya

The numbers that mostly interest us are HPM and HPS values under TW effects either with AA procs or not. We can clearly see that GHW HPM is higher than HS HPM but GHW HPS is lower that HS HPS. GHW therefore is more efficient to cast under TW effect due to its higher HPM but HS wins the duel when you don't have mana issues due to its really high HPS.

This is what I was under the impression of, which seems to contradict with the statement I quoted earlier. However, it looks like that 2-piece bonus description has been updated to reflect that.

Regarding the information in the table:

1) I'm at a 459 iLvl currently with 12,100 Int and 1000 crit rating, which puts me at 8.67% crit. Even with the 5% crit buff, I don't think a 462 iLvl would net you anything close to 20% crit chance (assuming you're reforging out of crit as most would). Is that a realistic percentage to use, or was it just used for simplicity's sake?

2) I'm assuming the 30% increased crit chance on HS from TW is included in the teal text? At any rate, the last column figure should be higher than the previous.

3) It doesn't appear Mastery was reflected in the table. Although both heals increase by the same percentage, whichever heal does more healing stands to benefit from Mastery the most in both HPM and HPS as the target's HP decrease.

I have a spreadsheet of my own that after fiddling with the numbers a bit seems, surprisingly, to indicate not only a HUGE HPS increase when using HS over GHW (to the tune of 25%), but only a minor HPM disadvantage (approximately 6%). This is, of course, factoring in crit heals and the resulting AA heals and assuming no overhealing, but was rather surprising to me nonetheless. I may have to experiment using HS more.

• Therya · 10/03/12, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Judgejoebrwn

This is what I was under the impression of, which seems to contradict with the statement I quoted earlier. However, it looks like that 2-piece bonus description has been updated to reflect that.

Regarding the information in the table:

1) I'm at a 459 iLvl currently with 12,100 Int and 1000 crit rating, which puts me at 8.67% crit. Even with the 5% crit buff, I don't think a 462 iLvl would net you anything close to 20% crit chance (assuming you're reforging out of crit as most would). Is that a realistic percentage to use, or was it just used for simplicity's sake?

2) I'm assuming the 30% increased crit chance on HS from TW is included in the teal text? At any rate, the last column figure should be higher than the previous.

3) It doesn't appear Mastery was reflected in the table. Although both heals increase by the same percentage, whichever heal does more healing stands to benefit from Mastery the most in both HPM and HPS as the target's HP decrease.

I have a spreadsheet of my own that after fiddling with the numbers a bit seems, surprisingly, to indicate not only a HUGE HPS increase when using HS over GHW (to the tune of 25%), but only a minor HPM disadvantage (approximately 6%). This is, of course, factoring in crit heals and the resulting AA heals and assuming no overhealing, but was rather surprising to me nonetheless. I may have to experiment using HS more.

It was contradicting because it was outdated so thanks for pointing it out, it is now corrected as you noticed.

1. I used 20% crit because I have been using 20% crit for almost all the guide for comparing purposes not because I achieved that with my currentgear. I used my own haste to reflect the casting times.
2. Yes. If however you find any mistakes please feel free to point exactly were.
3. No mastery wasnt included. If it was I would have make a remark. If you have spreadsheets of your own we would all appreciate if you shared for theorycrafting purposes. More numbers = better and more accurate results.

Judgejoebrwn · 10/04/12, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Therya

It was contradicting because it was outdated so thanks for pointing it out, it is now corrected as you noticed.

1. I used 20% crit because I have been using 20% crit for almost all the guide for comparing purposes not because I achieved that with my currentgear. I used my own haste to reflect the casting times.
2. Yes. If however you find any mistakes please feel free to point exactly were.
3. No mastery wasnt included. If it was I would have make a remark. If you have spreadsheets of your own we would all appreciate if you shared for theorycrafting purposes. More numbers = better and more accurate results.

1) Makes sense.

2) Looks like it has been corrected.

3) Below is a link to the spreadsheet I put together on comparing HS vs. GHW:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lE&output=html

It's not the prettiest spreadsheet in the world, but hopefully it's not too hard to follow. I'm using approximate statistics for 460 iLvl with raid buffs (22,000 Healing/3300 HRating/11% Haste/15% crit/51% Mastery). These numbers can certainly differ depending on reforging and gear level, but it's a good base I think. The spreadsheet assume no overhealing and includes AA heals, though this is on both sides of the coin. Feel free to look it over and compare your numbers. If you find anything that appears way off or if you want me to update it with certain statistics, please let me know.

• Therya · 10/04/12, 10:48 AM

I further corrected the description on the 2pc set bonus following the changes at #15. Unless my math is wrong (any help with double checking would be much appreciated) it does feel like GHW is not as powerful as HS except for when we surpass a certain level of crit.

Judgejoebrwn · 10/04/12, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Therya

I further corrected the description on the 2pc set bonus following the changes at #15. Unless my math is wrong (any help with double checking would be much appreciated) it does feel like GHW is not as powerful as HS except for when we surpass a certain level of crit and even then it's only better in HPM.

I just adjusted my spreadsheet to get my GHW heal to your number, which figures a bonus healing of ~23532. After updating my spreadsheet using the 23532 bonus healing figure and adjusting for JUST the AS talent for haste (as it appears you did), my HPM and HPS numbers are much more in line with yours (though not exact) at 0% and 20% crit. Therefore, adjusting the GHW crit chance down to 7% yielded me with a 1:1 HPM rating, so that should be the percentage you'll find for your table. 7% is rather low, as you only need 2% from gear assuming a raid environment. At 20% crit, GHW is a full 10% more mana efficient than HS, though still puts out 25% less HPS. At 20% crit WITH the 2-piece bonus, GHW is 24% more efficient, though whether or not that will be more important in high-level content is another story.

The other factor which can't really be worked out in a spreadsheet or table is overhealing. Although the average heal is technically higher with HS given all the additional crits and AA procs, each individual HS and AA numbers are smaller. This will probably equate to less overhealing on the tank, but it should definitely equate to less overhealing and more effective healing on the raid through AA procs.

It does appear that HS is overall the better option given the data thus far.

-Judge

EvoV · 10/06/12, 11:53 AM

When it comes to 25 man raiding at least.... ( I can't really speak for 10mans ) .... neither HS or GHW are dominant heals... so neither of these numbers are of great concern to me. Healing totems and healing rain will be... by far.. your dominant healing spells in these size raids. HS is an impressive option when you're looking to maximize Ascendance for a stacked aoe healing phase. In my experience, in a stacked situation... Riptide-HS-HS is superior to chain heal. But due to the way mastery works for us, and the mechanics of chain heal... I find chain heal to be a superior option under almost all other situations.

If your gear is such that you're capable of hitting 20% crit at the moment, I'd sugest you'll find more benefit from trying harder to optimize for Haste to reach that 20.01% haste break point. Even in 10 mans, you'll struggle to find a top healing shaman where their direct heals ( HS/GHW ) account for more than 15% of their healing done. And in 25mans... there's plenty of top ranked shamans that don't use either HS or GHW more than a couple of times in a fight.

Learn to love unleashed elements + healing rain. And feel free to lightning bolt plenty in a fight. Under a lot of circumstances, when dps take damage, its not sustained damage, and you don't need fast direct heals to top them up instantly. Often, slower more efficient heals are better options ( riptide + healing stream + whatever other healers throw out ). Most of the time, when people need to be topped up... its more than just one or two people, and chain heal / healing rain are your go-to abilities.

• Therya · 10/06/12, 12:40 PM

When it comes to 25 man raiding at least.Neither HS or GHW are dominant heals... so neither of these numbers are of great concern to me.
I find chain heal to be a superior option under almost all other situations.
And feel free to lightning bolt plenty in a fight.

While saying that GHW and HS are not dominant heals in 25man is valid, I have to disagree with that we need to overlook their value and contribution in healing to the point that we shouldn't even be bothered with doing math for them. This whole concern was raised due to the fact that the bonus of our tier 14 2pc which seems to be rather underwhelming. The point of this thread is to theorycraft Resto Shamans for both 25man and 10man, it would be unreasonable therefore to overlook any spells and avoid calculating their value nomatter how much they are used in any situation.

Results more often than not end up surprising us, so I would love to see a chart of RT-HS-HS vs CH-CH-CH , I think it would be very interesting to compare their HPM and HPS .I will put it in my todo list for the week to come.

This is another chart I would love to see, a comparison in LB's mana return to casting Rt-HW-HW-HW maybe. Resurgence percentage returns have gone up from Cataclysm, for example Cata HW = 115% vs MoP HW = 148%.

Judgejoebrwn · 10/06/12, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by EvoV

When it comes to 25 man raiding at least.... ( I can't really speak for 10mans ) .... neither HS or GHW are dominant heals... so neither of these numbers are of great concern to me.

I'm sure that's true, but the information is still valid and interesting. I'm pretty sure every shaman knows Healing Rain/Riptide/Totems will account for the vast majority of your heals, and therefore are uninteresting and leave nothing to really big figured out. If there's something you would like to know that we could help you figure out, by all means fill us in.

Originally Posted by EvoV

If your gear is such that you're capable of hitting 20% crit at the moment, I'd sugest you'll find more benefit from trying harder to optimize for Haste to reach that 20.01% haste break point.

Nobody is capable of hitting 20% crit in 463ish iLvl unless they're not reforging out of it, which they should be. It was simply a figure Theyra used and I matched in my spreadsheet. 15% is perfectly reasonable, even after aiming for that haste breakpoint.

Avsek · 10/07/12, 2:59 PM

One trinket is missed from the list of trinkets, which seem worth to be mentioned.
Jade Courtesan Figurine - Item - World of Warcraft
Dropped by trash mobs before Elegon.

Static int bonus: 1157
On use spirit: 3595 (15 sec long with 1 minute cd) ~ 500 mp5
Please note that wowhead stats are wrong. Spirit boost is 3595, not 2822 as listed on wowhead. It dropped for me today and I checked that the actual spirit boost is 3595. In-game tool tip is correct.

Its stats seem to match stats of Scroll of Revered Ancestors - Item - World of Warcraft (again the value of spirit on wowhead is wrong)

• Therya · 10/07/12, 4:10 PM

Added [Jade Courtesan Figurine] in trinkets section however, as stated both its MP5 and Intellect don't live up to the expectations of an epic trinket. [Empty Fruit Barrel] seems to be a better choice , given the fact that it scales with our MTT. Also note that its actual Int is 1079 not 1157, spirit is correct.

keith7766 · 10/09/12, 4:55 PM

Perhaps [Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem] should be added to the glyphs section as an option for use in conjunction with Primal Elementalist, changing it into essentially a 3-minute CD, 36-sec duration, 10% increase to healing.

Of course, the Earth Elemental isn't affected by this glyph, so you still have your 5-minute CD, 1-minute duration, 10% increase to healing as well.

• Therya · 10/09/12, 6:37 PM

Depending on the length of the fight and the usage you can get out of your Fire Elemental we need to look at uptime to judge whether [Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem] is viable or not since we get a 10% increase in healing for as long as our Elemental is up.

In a 7min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get 120sec uptime. With the glyph uptime drops to 108sec meaning we will be losing 10% of the elementals uptime and 1% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will reduce the Elementals bonus healing to 9%.

In a 10min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get again 120sec uptime. With the glyph the uptime raises to 144 sec meaning we will be gaining roughly 16.67% of the elementals uptime and also gaining 1.667% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will increase the Elementals bonus healing to 11.667%.

In a 15min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get 180sec uptime. With the glyph the uptime is exactly 180sec also making this time frame more appropriate for selecting the glyph given the fact it will allow the shaman to synergize his Fire Elemental with his HTT.

It seems in a short fight the glyph will resort in a healing throuput loss of our elementals bonus healing and in a longer fight it will result in a gain. However these are only 2 examples and the CDs are used at the start of the fight. To further compare how efficient the glyph is or not we would have to break down every fight and look at exactly what points we are using our fire elemental. Note that the glyph also provides with the advantage of being used more often, meaning in phases were healing raid cooldowns are needed and as such although the elementals uptime is less it results to less overhealing.

♦ Kurisu · 10/10/12, 4:24 PM

Uptime concerns aside the largest benefit to using Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem is actually improving raid AE healing capabilities that we have, currently I'd say on average it's giving us about 3kish worth of spell power (before spell power buffs) during Healing Tide alone so it's effectiveness with Healing Rain and Tide together is a strong relationship.

They match cooldowns at that point and on certain encounters this extra bit of pulse AE healing can be really substantial during progression no matter the shaman Specialization. This something.

Essentially you want to treat it like you would most glyphs/talents, it's a situational add that benefits you on an encounter/class comp basis. If your raid lacks heavy AE healing needed for certain encounters it will have great returns for you as needed, especially if you are semi-DPSing. This isn't going to be a clear cut decision.

Judgejoebrwn · 10/10/12, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Therya

Depending on the length of the fight and the usage you can get out of your Fire Elemental we need to look at uptime to judge whether [Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem] is viable or not since we get a 10% increase in healing for as long as our Elemental is up.

In a 6min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get 120sec uptime. With the glyph uptime drops to 108sec meaning we will be losing 10% of the elementals uptime and 1% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will reduce the Elementals bonus healing to 9%.

In a 10min fight without the glyph, using it on CD we get again 120sec uptime. With the glyph the uptime raises to 144 sec meaning we will be gaining roughly 16.67% of the elementals uptime and also gaining 1.667% of the increased healing it provides. In other words the glyph will increase the Elementals bonus healing to 11.667%.

It seems in a short fight the glyph will resort in a healing throuput loss of our elementals bonus healing and in a longer fight it will result in a gain. However these are only 2 examples and the CDs are used at the start of the fight. To further compare how efficient the glyph is or not we would have to break down every fight and look at exactly what points we are using our fire elemental. Note that the glyph also provides with the advantage of being used more often, meaning in phases were healing raid cooldowns are needed and as such although the elementals uptime is less it results to less overhealing.

Not sure I follow the uptime figures given here. With 5-min CD's on both (Unglyphed), wouldn't a 180-second uptime be more accurate given a 6min fight assuming an elemental was always dropped when available (first two minutes, then the final minute)? With the glyph, you would ideally use the Earth Elemental first, followed by the Fire Elemental. This would allow a second use of both within the 6-minute time frame, equating to a total uptime of 192 seconds.

In the 10min fight, you would get a total uptime of 240 seconds unglyphed, yet 264 seconds with the glyph (2 Earths, 4 Fires).

This is, of course, assuming you're using them on CD, which may not always be the best option. However, the more frequent use, as you said, may allow it to be more readily available when needed. The 3-minute CD for the Fire Elemental would also sync well with Healing Tide (which Kurisu was mentioning).

• Therya · 10/11/12, 9:00 PM

The [Glyph of Fire Elemental Totem] only applies to the Fire Elemental so I am not counting Earth Elementals uptime in my calculations. In a 6 min fight by dropping the unglyphed Fire Elemental in 0min mark and 5min mark then you get ideally ( although that might not be the best for throughput) 120sec uptime.