The One Stop Elemental Shop

• Binkenstein · 10/10/07, 7:24 PM

This is also not a "help me figure out what gear to get" thread, as the information to help you do this is already available. This doesn't mean PM me with gear questions or requests for feedback either. If it isn't mentioned in this thread already, then make a post about it. Please make sure you read the thread first.

These posts are no longer being maintained.

All information has been moved and updated to the Theorycrafting Think Tank.

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20914-shaman_elemental/

• Binkenstein · 10/10/07, 7:24 PM

See: TTT entry.

• Binkenstein · 10/10/07, 7:25 PM

See: TTT entry

• Binkenstein · 10/10/07, 7:25 PM

See: TTT entry

• Binkenstein · 10/10/07, 7:30 PM

Lighting Overload behaviour
http://elitistjerks.com/699164-post1481.html
LO procs are calculated on spell cast. The post linked above shows resisted bolts, with LO procs.

My Stuff
Other Theorycrafting Sites for Shaman ie: not mine

SimulationCraft/Trinkets/Shaman - Shadowpriest.com Wiki

PEW PEW CALC by Bop!

Resto4Now

DPS Time - WWS
DPS time can be a misleading stat for Elemental shaman. The only way to reduce it is to stagger totem redrops, minimise movement, and maximise range to target.

• Binkenstein · 10/10/07, 8:42 PM

Deleted.

Akanya · 10/10/07, 8:59 PM

Looking forward to seeing more, should be insightful as always.

wilfan · 10/11/07, 6:28 AM

It's "Tier" and not "Teir".

Grave-Arygos · 10/11/07, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Elemental Warding Reduces Frost/Fire/Nature damage taken by 3/7/10% Useful for raiding and PvP

It's 4/7/10%. Front loaded an extra 1% so it's a place to throw an extra point if you don't go to 3/3.

Also, throw Tranquil Air into your list of totems.

Keep up the good work on the spreadsheets. While I'm still trying to figure out how Quag's is beating out Sextant, it's a great source of information.

gymsta · 10/11/07, 8:52 AM

Poison/Disease Cleansing Removes one Poison/Disease debuff every 10 seconds. Great for debuff spam fights.

In german totem tooltip they remove every 5 seconds Poison/Disease.

Chemdog · 10/11/07, 9:01 AM

I thought they procced every 5 secs too, like tremor.

Edit: Hey Bink, in the critvsdmg sheet, on the LB page you have a formula in G2.
2.5/3.5 (LBCO) * 1.05 (Concussion) * 1.25 (is this the LO proc which should be 1.125?)
Actually, you used 1.25 in all those calculations. You said in the dps sheet thread it was 1.125. Just making sure I follow you.

• Binkenstein · 10/11/07, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Grave-Arygos

It's 4/7/10%. Front loaded an extra 1% so it's a place to throw an extra point if you don't go to 3/3.

Also, throw Tranquil Air into your list of totems.

Keep up the good work on the spreadsheets. While I'm still trying to figure out how Quag's is beating out Sextant, it's a great source of information.

Fixed, added, and it's the low cooldown on the haste proc. After loading in the 2.3 changes, and fixing/redoing the calculations, haste became more valuable. Not sure if it's due to the changes, the new rating->% figure, or a stuff-up on my part. Pretty sure the haste calc is solid now.

Originally Posted by Chemdog

I thought they procced every 5 secs too, like tremor.

Edit: Hey Bink, in the critvsdmg sheet, on the LB page you have a formula in G2.
2.5/3.5 (LBCO) * 1.05 (Concussion) * 1.25 (is this the LO proc which should be 1.125?)
Actually, you used 1.25 in all those calculations. You said in the dps sheet thread it was 1.125. Just making sure I follow you.

Was going off memory at that stage.
I'll check CvD when I get to work.

Daidalos · 10/11/07, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

However, Flame Shock requires a range of 20 yards, as opposed to the 30 (36 when talented) yards than Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning have, and as such, is not used in spell rotations.

I would argue that the primary reason to not use flame shock would be its lower dps. It will depend on what debuffs the mob has but factoring in that the flame shock scaling coefficient is lower than LB. FS coefficent(s) is (.35*.4285)+(.65 *12/15) = .1499+52 = .67
I could be wrong about about how the dmg is split but I believe the shock recieves 35% and the dot 65% before the instant/dot coefficient is applied.

Flame shock inherantly scales at a slower rate than LB and CL (calculating its dps as total dmg/1.5s). It is higher dps (with less than ~550base spell dmg +101 for warth and 55 additional dmg to LB from relic. using 2.2 values for LO as well as the addition LB crit from ele and resto tree) I would expect most shamans at lvl 70 to start out around this amount of spell damage and quickly surpass it. Making flame shock only situationaly usefull when unable to stop and cast. With the additional penalty of being 150 additional mana cost.

basically FS is only a viable in a dps rotation at low crit and +damage amounts (the dot portion gains no benefit from crit). If you want I can post more math to show the exact points where LB is always better dps but its going to have 2 variables of damage and crit not to mention its going to assuming you have all the LB crit talents.

Originally Posted by Chemdog

I thought they procced every 5 secs too, like tremor.

Edit: Hey Bink, in the critvsdmg sheet, on the LB page you have a formula in G2.
2.5/3.5 (LBCO) * 1.05 (Concussion) * 1.25 (is this the LO proc which should be 1.125?)
Actually, you used 1.25 in all those calculations. You said in the dps sheet thread it was 1.125. Just making sure I follow you.

LB is a 3s cast so the LB coef would be 3/3.5 and the multiplier for LO is 1.11 in 2.2. However, in 2.3 it changes to 2.5/3.5 and a 1.125 for LO so those calculations are for 2.3.
EDIT: oops LO wasn't halved.

Quasi · 10/11/07, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

LB is a 3s cast so the LB coef would be 3/3.5 and the multiplier in for LO is 1.11 in 2.2. However, in 2.3 it changes to 2.5 and a 1.25 so those calculations are for 2.3.

The lightning overload procs will be doing half damage which is why that modifier should be 1.25/2 or ~1.125.

• Binkenstein · 10/11/07, 3:29 PM

Diad, adding flame shock in for a full 12 second duration does increase DPS, mostly because the mages will be keeping full scorch up, along with CoE. However, that increase is minor, and the damage per mana is much lower than LB. It's one of those "what if" cases, as it's the highest dps shock we have.

Also, fixing CvD (had 1.25 rather than 1.125 as it should have been).

Kewangeder · 10/11/07, 4:01 PM

Ah, but if your mages are all going arcane, then there will be no scorch debuff... and probably no CoEl either.

Daidalos · 10/11/07, 4:12 PM

Yup all our mages are arcane (AM spam with ashtounge trinket AB for burst) although they might spec back to fire for 2.3 but you can't assume those debuffs are there. We don't have CoE up either. Besides you could also have 2 enh shaman and argue SS will be up. which is more likely in my guild than having CoE and Scorch. If you wanna still argue FS is good dps at least put up assuming "CoE,scotch and no SS"

I agree its the highest dps shock its just not as good as CL or LB in most cases. Depends on gear spec and raid debuffs. For any end game shaman it will be lower dps than CL or LB.

We had an attunemnt ssc/tk last week for like 6 shaman new recruits and had 3 enh sham I specced ele for that raid and was "LOL big numbers" all night with nearly constant SS up. Flame shock would have been significantly lower dps if I had ever used it aside from when running.

In a more realistic situation of 1 enh shaman who is SS every 10 secs (assuming hes nice and doesn't eat one charge with a earth shock and no one else is doing nature dmg) you get 2 hits per 10 secs of 20% nature dmg increase. Assuming a LB rotation so there are 5 casts in 10 secs that is a a 2/5 * .2 = .08 = 8% increase in LB dmg.

Phlis · 10/11/07, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Patch 2.3

With all the Shaman changes going into effect this patch we definatly need followups in this area, specifically:

Elemental Focus (Elemental) now reduces the mana cost of the next 2 damage spells by 40%. How does this stack if at all? If you get two crits in a row do you end up with 3 charges or only 2?

Lightning Bolt cast time reduced to 2.5 (from 3.0 where applicable), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.

and

Chain Lightning cast time reduced to 2.0 (from 2.5), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.

We'll need to mana values for both

and importantly I think:
Water Shield: This spell no longer costs any mana to cast and its duration has been shortened. At the end of its duration, it now grants mana for any remaining globes. In addition, the mana granted per globe has been substantially increased.

How much mana per charge? Is it worth the GCD to keep recasting this? Does it still even cause a GCD?

Aeonix · 10/11/07, 6:10 PM

With a 30 mp/2 totem and passive mana-shield, we may end up stacking more damage and less crit due to a decreased need for clearcasting procs. Reduced threat should also allow more sustained-dps.

We've got a lot of numbers to crunch. Anyone been on the PTR yet?

The old entry-level T5 rule (unbuffed) was somewhere around 24% crit and 750 nature damage, scalable back to 18% & 900 nature with a shadow priest available. Yes, these numbers could be debated all day long. It's a baseline.

I wonder where we'll end up with the changes?

Aeonix · 10/11/07, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Phlis

Elemental Focus (Elemental) now reduces the mana cost of the next 2 damage spells by 40%. How does this stack if at all? If you get two crits in a row do you end up with 3 charges or only 2?

In short, it means if you have less than 50% crit fully buffed you're actually getting more mana back.

Originally Posted by Phlis

Lightning Bolt cast time reduced to 2.5 (from 3.0 where applicable), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.

and

Chain Lightning cast time reduced to 2.0 (from 2.5), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.

With talents, it's a net/net even number. You still reduce to the same cast time. Resto & Enhance shaman are the ones gaining power from this exchange. I don't know of a single Elemental Shaman who would be affected.

Moshne · 10/11/07, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Aeonix

With talents, it's a net/net even number. You still reduce to the same cast time. Resto & Enhance shaman are the ones gaining power from this exchange. I don't know of a single Elemental Shaman who would be affected.

It affects us very directly, as it changes our coefficient along with the base cast time. I'd argue it affects Elemental more than the others, as no Resto or Enh shaman will ever be casting LB in a raid situation consistently, even with .5 seconds chopped off

• Binkenstein · 10/11/07, 8:00 PM

Originally Posted by Moshne

It affects us very directly, as it changes our coefficient along with the base cast time. I'd argue it affects Elemental more than the others, as no Resto or Enh shaman will ever be casting LB in a raid situation consistently, even with .5 seconds chopped off

I've been known to spend part of P1 Al'ar casting LB's at the embers to help kill them. Especially since our range DPS never figured out how to change targets & dot, then go back to Al'ar himself. Plus Resto shaman will be able to grind better

Jyca · 10/11/07, 8:12 PM

Are you certain on that point about searing totem(breaking CC) i know it's not a massive deal but i have seen it act rather strangely at times, for example when there was one mob left that had been shackled the totem did nothing. When another mob was aggroed(while shackles were still in place) the totem didn't attempt to attack the new mob it just sat there(guess this could be a case that the new mob was not on it's threat list?).

I can't say how the totem would react if the shackles were to break and be re-applied i would hope it works the same as pets in that it will ignore CCed targets.

Never properly tested this it's just what i saw on some trash during a kara run.

Phlis · 10/11/07, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Aeonix

In short, it means if you have less than 50% crit fully buffed you're actually getting more mana back.

With talents, it's a net/net even number. You still reduce to the same cast time. Resto & Enhance shaman are the ones gaining power from this exchange. I don't know of a single Elemental Shaman who would be affected.

I want to know the specific numbers. If clearcasting stacks, I want to know how much. I want to know whether Lightning bolt is going to be 275mp, which would be a straight 3sec to 2.5 conversion, or 300 which was something Eyonix posted, I believe. I want to know how much mp I can get back by keeping Water Shield up indefinatly and whether that nets me more damage in X minutes. I want real numbers, not vague "DPS will stay the same" answers.

These are elemental shaman DPS specific issues.

• Binkenstein · 10/11/07, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jyca

Are you certain on that point about searing totem(breaking CC) i know it's not a massive deal but i have seen it act rather strangely at times, for example when there was one mob left that had been shackled the totem did nothing. When another mob was aggroed(while shackles were still in place) the totem didn't attempt to attack the new mob it just sat there(guess this could be a case that the new mob was not on it's threat list?).

I can't say how the totem would react if the shackles were to break and be re-applied i would hope it works the same as pets in that it will ignore CCed targets.

Never properly tested this it's just what i saw on some trash during a kara run.

Fairly certain. It'll go for the nearest non-cc target in range, but when it has no targets but a cc target, I think it will target that.
If you don't think it does, test it. I can always change the thread (although I can count a few times searing totem cause hydros transition wipes)

Originally Posted by Phlis

I want to know the specific numbers. If clearcasting stacks, I want to know how much. I want to know whether Lightning bolt is going to be 275mp, which would be a straight 3sec to 2.5 conversion, or 300 which was something Eyonix posted, I believe. I want to know how much mp I can get back by keeping Water Shield up indefinatly and whether that nets me more damage in X minutes. I want real numbers, not vague "DPS will stay the same" answers.

These are elemental shaman DPS specific issues.

Aside from the 300 LB cost that Eyonix has suggested, any change that doesn't have a value yet has been guessed. In my calcs I've assumes that CL gets a 10% cost reduction like LB did, and I've kept WS at the same mana-back value for the moment.

Of course, you could just download my TC calc sheets and see that for yourself.

Please note that until we get the PTR, or someone at Blizzard announce those specific details, we will not have final accurate figures for some of these changes.