Kasi

Well from our perspective yes it does. We've done the math and know its a nerf. From Blizzard's perspective? Not really. Maybe they just wanted to make elemental shamans and moonkins have the same dps? I'm not really sure what their justification is for the nerf, but the numbers clearly show its going to be impossible to get our dps back. Only by fulling potting and using consumables and using CL a lot will it be possible to get even close.

 

Daidalos

Basically due to itemization budgets you will not achieve 2.2 dps with similar ilvl gear. 2.3 was a dps nerf and there is no way around this. Basically if you stack haste you do so at the cost of crit or spell dmg so there is no free lunc.. err haste here.

 

tufy

I attempted to gather data on what people think about this. Unfortunately, I posted in every class forum asking for simple votes, which resulted in a lightning fast deletion of the threads and a forum ban (yeah, like that makes a difference thanks to immensely good forum code, lol). Anyway, just before the delete, I managed to sweep the threads once more. My hunch was more or less confirmed - other classes believe that we're pretty much fine as we are (as in 2.2). Thus in my book, there is simply no excuse for the incoming nerf and if there is no excuse, the nerf should be reverted before it goes live. The problem is, we're running out of time.

I was actually intending to protest by simply not downloading 2.3 (i.e. not playing the game and extending subscription until the problem is solved), but really, given Blizzard's attitude, that means half a year of waiting or more and by then, I may as well quit for good. So now, I'll wait until it hits us and try to make it work... but we're in for some VERY rough time imo.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

slant

WoW Forums -> Elemental Shaman: Please Read

They're increasing coefficients to add 5-6% damage to LB and CL. Not the most elegant fix, but it ought to do the trick.

 

Kasi

Yeah someone needs to do the math on this exactly, although we'll figure out I guess when the fix goes in and how much it really changes. But if Eyonix is right and the sweet spot is between 1100-1200 damage, than like we've been saying in this thread (and the other I guess) going haste instead of stacking more damage might be profitable. Not sure since it's very hard to do theorycrafting without specific values.

 

• Binkenstein

Doing a quick adjustment to ShamSpells, whether we add 5% to the co-eff, or multiply the current one by 105%, it still comes out as a buff. Adding gives a higher increase.

 

Argrax

That's refreshing to see/hear, but in spite of that I'm still very curious as to their justification for a nerf, however slight, to damage at the top end.

 

• Binkenstein

The scaling of LB/CL was nuts.

I think everyone could agree that it was a bit OP/prime nerf material.

 

Kaideq

Let's be completely honest here, first let's see actual #'s on the ptr.
I mean the last blue post wasn't really accurate

It will be interesting to see how the badge gear stands up to t5 with the coefficient change ,since VS t6 you just see too much spell damage / critical lost per item to bother comparing.
I assume you will even be bothered by the 1200 spell damage 'cap' in t5 raid wise, since that's a pretty easy number to get.

How are you guys going to re-gear? I've been looking into dropping spell damage in large amounts, since that was my main focus up to now.
Swapping my exalted MH rep ring for another haste ring and hopefully getting a haste belt anytime soon. Trinket wise I really see no options to swap out anything that isn't spell damage, TLC gets shafted too much.
Replacing all my spell damage gems with spell critical gems doesn't seem very hot as it's just 50 odd spell damage and will likely bankrupt me ;D.

Judging by the post by Eonyx I'd say we pretty much hit the roof of TBC, with more and more rumors floating around that Sunwell will only be a side grade to T6 for the most part.
For actual real improvement DPS wise, comparable to t5/t6,the stat allocation of gear pieces in Sunwell will have to be stacked with disproportionate amounts of spell haste and/or a new funky stat.

 

Kasi

I still don't see how this will make spell haste better than spell damage Kaideq. We did the calculations yesterday that point for point spell damage was better use of item value than spell haste. And this was for the proposed 2.3 nerfs. Now we just got 5-6% spell damage back on our coefficient. This will only make spell damage stronger. If anything this is like someone else said before on this thread or the other. It leaves spell crit more and more as the stat to leave in the dust. You want spell damage and spell haste at the maximum amounts possible. Which would make the BT haste rings great, maybe the new haste elemental BP comparable to the MH trash drop and of course make T5 and T6 better than the alternatives, because you can't give up that much damage.

Don't drop spell damage though. It is not the right thing to do at all. It is still our best scaling stat.

 

Nennx

Honestly, the scaling really only effected PvP. Its insane the amount of burst damage you can do in full t6 in something like AV. Of course, in arenas, it was good, but it wasn't completely out of control since the damage you get is limited by the fact you need to wear mostly PvP gear. I think this nerf was mostly setting up for future pvp seasons, when shaman will start breaking 1000 damage in full pvp gear, where the amount of burst you can do would have become somewhat overpowering. As for PvE, yes, the damage scales well, but from a dps meter perspective , my place hasn't changed much when I'm playing with equally geared people from Gruul's to Illidan.

 

Kaideq

Looking into dropping it not actually doing it. Now I reread it I wasn't very clear.
+ The re-gem to spell critical part was a joke.

Just seeing how much actual stats you dump item-wise for the haste.
For the previously mentioned 79 spell haste, as I'd like to get the spell haste non procced.

Basically Exalted MH Ring/Flashfire vs Haste ring/Anatherons Noose vs Haste ring/Flashfire.
( I'd smack in 2, 12 spell damage gems in the belt)
28 spell damage + ring proc is my large amount of dumped spell dmg vs the last bit of spell-haste.

 

Miaxi

Now that I have finished venting my frustration on the general forums, something more constructive. With flask, oil, food and improved divine spirit, the scaling decrease will already show itself at 879 + Totem of the Void. Now this is a number that will already affect ZA raiders if they bother to buff up for the timed mode. And while LB scaling is quite mad, it is also the only thing we have going for us.

 

Kasi

It's hard to say where we'll get it at. Because 5% to 6% is quite a big difference really. I do think it is silly that they don't count all the raid buffs into things, but regardless this is better than it was yesterday.

 

◊ Praetorian

CoE really just needs to modify Nature damage too, and I think elemental shamans would be just fine. I still don't understand why it doesn't.

LB/CL scaled stupidly well in a solo setting compared to other nukes, but not all that well compared to other nukes in a raid setting with various synergies like warlock curses or Shadow Weaving in play.

 

Noobshock

In PVP that might be the case, I don't know enough to comment.
In PVE however, even now with t6 I've never thought LB/CL to be particularly overpowered. We do OKAY damage, enough that a lot of guilds will let us take ONE raid slot. We're still a nice chunk behind the pure dps classes. Where does the overpowered come in? Being allowed *one* raid slot when your GM isn't completely batshit about minmaxing, isn't what I'd call threatening to game balance. In fact I'd venture to say it's been quite the underdog spec thus far. Not as bad as ret pallies, but pretty lackluster nonetheless, lack of synergies being one of the main problems indeed as noted by the above poster.

And no matter how good the scaling is, if the itemization already takes it into account, you're SOL.

 

Hodan

Basically summed up right here. Also shamans innately have less % damage increases (5% concussion, 5% LO) versus the other comparable casting classes (I know fire mages have a single talent to give 10% damage alone), so their high coefficient made up for that. Honestly I think they're just trying to shift a bit of the incredible importance of lightning mastery on to LO.

 

Argrax

I'd be happy if they gave the 'Misery' debuff to us.

 

tufy

My honest opinion (one that I'll never post on official forums, as some blue might actually read it :p): I think we're missing the big picture here. A while ago, a blue said they want to "fix the Elemental Shaman's scaling in the next patch". I believe the nerf was actually this fix. I believe that they are already preparing classes for WotLK, where we were said to receive a CC. Since we have no idea what the tree extensions will be, I'd hold back on the final judgement for now.

nah, Stormstrike just needs to be changed to permanent 12 sec 10% debuff without charges.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

furiousmike

There is a shaman God somewhere

 

Miaxi

Considering warlocks have CoS, Shadow Weaving and Improved Shadow Bolt going for them, I think both together would be in order.

Also scaling down DPS classes in PvE before the release of Sunwell Plateau seems stupid to me. o.0 We won't be getting that proverbial CC for months to come, just look at how long TBC beta was. (And how many bugs still went live.)

 

• Binkenstein

in PvE I'd put it down to talents/low base damage, which would "undervalue" LB.

Anyway, the scaling of the spell was the issue, as we'd effectively get (3/3.5)*1.05*(1+crit%) damage out of one dmg point

 

Antoine

In the first post, you state that the CSD increases crits to 203%, whereas Roywyn's testing (http://elitistjerks.com/535928-post618.html) shows that it is actually 209%.

 

shed

Looking at the new post from blizzard stating that 1200 dmg will see a slight nerf, how easy is it to get 1200+ dmg as a elemental shaman in PVE with T6 quality gear?

Best case scenario, what can a shaman get for damage? Trying to get an idea if top end shamans will basically see a small nerf now (in PVE).

 

Moshne

I think too much emphasis is being put on this magic number of 1200. They aren't adjusting the coefficient to where it is lower the higher your spell damage is. We need to test the coefficient on the PTRs and then figure out for ourselves if they are correct about it capping out at 1200.

I've been doing some preliminary numbers myself, but I am having some issues with accuracy, as my base damage is showing a tad higher than it should according the wowhead etc (571-652 with no talents. 599-684 with.) Does anyone have any insight into that?

EDIT: It appears to be because Rank 12 is a level 67 spell, it is just gaining by level.

Formula I am using

(1.05(coefficient(spell damage)) + base) = max damage (1.05 is from concussion)

Using this formula, I came to a .789 coefficient on the PTR as of about 15 minutes ago. I am not sure how solid my math is on this, but the formula works for the abilities I have that we know all the variables, so it should hold.