I was thinking more on the end total output value of DEP of your item kit and talents not really the item level or the tier level of individual pieces. Because I know from first hand experience that item level means nothing by itself, it’s more of how it fits into your whole item set and talent spec.
A note about haste from my personal experience. The theoretical value of haste is exceptionally high and with due reason. However in practice it would only work in manageable increases. Going from 0 to 30 spell haste rating (LB around 1.98) for instance does not increase DPS because it's horribly difficult to start casting your new spell 2ms faster (using Quartz myself).
I'm curious to know what more workeable jumps in cast time decrease would be (don't have many spell haste items yet so cannot test myself) but the whole concept of collecting haste after achieving sufficient damage and crit levels is flawed in that you cannot just replace one item and get a boost such as you might from adding more plain damage and crit.
Increments in 0.1 Seconds are the only things worth it imo.
I picked up Pauldrons of the Furious Elements a while back reducing Lightning Bolt to 1.96 Seconds. 0.04 Seconds is hardly noticeable, and for the most part made little DPS difference when compared to using my T5 shoulders. Until you can see more than 0.1 in cast time reduction while maintaining the relative spell damage and crit you have, I'd hardly bother with it.
Is the effective set bonus value of 76 MP5 still applicable for Cyclone 4-Piece bonus?
I've read that the effect was nerfed to expire on 1st spell cast instead of previously lasting the entire duration regardless of how many spells were cast in that period. Don't have it to test myself so maybe someone else can verify. Also would be good to know if there's an internal cooldown or not.
Bink's formula is MP5=((Crit*0.33)/DEP!G13)*270*5 in his model. Shouldnt it be crit rate * proc % * casts/minute * 270 mana divided by (60 sec / 5 secs) ? So if crit = 40%, proc % = 11% (from wowhead), cast/min = 60/2 = 30, effective MP5 would be 29.7 MP5.
Okay not sure if anyone has experienced themselves. But I am really having trouble with my class in being consistent "the count on dmg/dps'er" on boss fights.
I know I have the possibility of doing hecks loads of dmg so I am wondering if any other elemental shamans have the same problem.
Its like if I dont crit or proc mulitple spells then I am 6-8 in dmg. If I am criting every 5 seconds and on fire I can easily get to 1-5 on dmg charts. Any tips for staying consistent on boss fights I currently raid ssc/tk so if any other elemental shammies that are in the same level or higher would love feed back from your experience with dmg meters being UP and DOWN from week to week.
If you just give me the total stats I can plug it into my sim. Personally if you are going with haste and LB build I would go for 4 pc t6 with the trash chest and the rest t6. Then add haste since the 5% to LB is more than any on gloves.
Well took me a few days longer but I added this all up. Now I did include 2 piece T6 bonus as 45 dmg and 35 spell crit. So if your sim takes that into account, subtract that from the stats. I counted in enchants, (used scryers though 15 crit, 12 dmg since it is what I am, dmg on weapon, legs, gloves, bracers) buffs (101 spell damage from totem, 66 crit rating, 38 hit from totem of wrath), consumables (80 from flask, 23 from food, 42 from oil) and came up with these 2 gear sets.
Oh I also added in Totem of Ancestral Knowledge as a flat 85 dmg. I also used Icon/Hex as the two trinkets and just modelled them as a flat 69 and 88 spell damage. I realize certain trinkets might work better for certain gear sets, so in listing below I'll show dmg without totem and trinkets and dmg with the ones I used.
Dmg/Crit set (I would like this tested with the 3/1 rotation, and I guess pure LB spam with the two different totems, AK and the badge one)
Full Skyshatter, Translucent Spellthread Neck. Illidari Council Cloak, Coming Storm bracers, Anatheron's Noose (with 2 spinels), Naturewarden's boots (with 2 spinels), Archi Shield, Naj dagger, Naj ring, MH exalted ring (modelled that as 34 dmg + proc/7 which gave me 48 dmg for the ring), HSH, Icon
Damage: 1671 (1586 without totem added) (1429 without both trinkets)
Crit: 503
Hit: 153
Haste: 0
Haste set (Test with pure LB spam, with both the 85 dmg totem and the 100 spell haste totem)
Full Skyshatter, Cursed Bones neck, Illidari Council cloak, Nimble Thought Bracers, Flashfire Girdle, Naturewarden's boots, Illidan Staff, Dual BT spell haste rings, HSH, Icon.
Damage: 1576 (1491 without totem added) (1334 without both trinkets)
Crit: 403
Hit: 134
Haste: 209
I was going to work out the math myself, but I wasn't sure how to deal with things like more LO procs from the haste set and stuff like that. Both should have the 5% bonus from T6. TLC might still be the best trinket too, and might help the LB spam haste set because of more chances for proccing due to more spells.
Most (all) healers here know about CWS, and how you can weave weapons in and out during combat to get the full use of both Spellsurge and +81 Healing enchants.
I was wondering: Wouldn't the same concept be applicable to DPS classes?
Using the same concept of switching out weapons during item procs (in this case totems, which can still be switched out during combat), shouldn't it be possible to use the Skycall until it procs, have the mod automatically switch the totems, and utilize the +damage from the damage totems while the buff is still up? There wouldn't be any loss in DPS because of switching, since the global cooldown would run while the next Lightning Bolt is being cast.
The reason why swapping a spellsurge weapon in/out is that there is a cooldown on the proc.
There is no cooldown on Skycall. The only way I could see such a rotation working is if you swap Void/AG in if you get the haste buff.
Most (all) healers here know about CWS, and how you can weave weapons in and out during combat to get the full use of both Spellsurge and +81 Healing enchants.
I was wondering: Wouldn't the same concept be applicable to DPS classes?
Using the same concept of switching out weapons during item procs (in this case totems, which can still be switched out during combat), shouldn't it be possible to use the Skycall until it procs, have the mod automatically switch the totems, and utilize the +damage from the damage totems while the buff is still up? There wouldn't be any loss in DPS because of switching, since the global cooldown would run while the next Lightning Bolt is being cast.
Well I could see why you might think that, but basically its not worth switching. As bink noted there is no cooldown to the skycall totem so skycalls affect is lessened additional switching relics in combat triggers teh GCD. For healers this isn't as bad using 2.5 s heals inaddition to usually using the same heal several time in a row before a additional GCD would be triggered siwtching back to a dif heal. With LB being a 2s cast the additional GCD for the relic switch would make it 3s.. this would pretty much destroy your dps.
Really the only time I could see switching is if you are running (good time to sue a gcd) and know you about to lust. Swap in void or guidance before the lust kinda thing.
Increments in 0.1 Seconds are the only things worth it imo.
I picked up Pauldrons of the Furious Elements a while back reducing Lightning Bolt to 1.96 Seconds. 0.04 Seconds is hardly noticeable, and for the most part made little DPS difference when compared to using my T5 shoulders. Until you can see more than 0.1 in cast time reduction while maintaining the relative spell damage and crit you have, I'd hardly bother with it.
If this is true, then the spreadsheet is vastly overating haste.
Well I could see why you might think that, but basically its not worth switching. As bink noted there is no cooldown to the skycall totem so skycalls affect is lessened additional switching relics in combat triggers teh GCD. For healers this isn't as bad using 2.5 s heals inaddition to usually using the same heal several time in a row before a additional GCD would be triggered siwtching back to a dif heal. With LB being a 2s cast the additional GCD for the relic switch would make it 3s.. this would pretty much destroy your dps.
Really the only time I could see switching is if you are running (good time to sue a gcd) and know you about to lust. Swap in void or guidance before the lust kinda thing.
It was my understanding that swapping totems was possible while casting / in GCD, and did not trigger an additional GCD in that case. Added to the fact that the spell is "resolved" (bonii taken into account) at the end of the cast, rather than in the beginning, totem-swapping looked pretty viable to me (I have to admit I never tried it, this is just the result of my various readings).
/cast *spell-with-casttime >= 1,5 sec*
/equip totem-that-enhances-this-spell
would equip the totem while the spell is being cast (casting the spell triggers a GCD, and GCDs are not "queued").
Whereas :
/equip totem-that-enhances-this-spell
/cast *spell*
would first trigger a GCD, and then start casting the spell (thus destroying your DPS, as stated above).
I'd be more than happy to have this specific mechanic explained to me, as I'm not 100% sure of what I understood.
If Skycall works like every other equipped item in the game, switching it out will remove its proc buff, so I don't really see where totem swapping would be helpful.
To be honest, I only see benefits in totem-swapping for heals (used with totems that increase amount healed, or decrease mana cost).
Procs from totems would definitely not qualify for this.
Increments in 0.1 Seconds are the only things worth it imo.
I picked up Pauldrons of the Furious Elements a while back reducing Lightning Bolt to 1.96 Seconds. 0.04 Seconds is hardly noticeable, and for the most part made little DPS difference when compared to using my T5 shoulders. Until you can see more than 0.1 in cast time reduction while maintaining the relative spell damage and crit you have, I'd hardly bother with it.
I really have no idea about how you perceive things and the resulting dps has to do with anything. Does a healer with 2200 +healing notice an additional 20 healing? no? Therefore resto shaman should only get +healing in increments of 100? I mean this doesn't make any sense to me.
Now if you are arguing that the game rounds heavily and doesn't not actually give you the haste except in .1s increment that would matter (but would require some logs to back up).. stuff about what you notice does not have anything to do with actual dps.. I mean I don't notice 15 crit rating either.. so what?
How can you cast 0.02 or 0.04s faster? It's just not possible. It is very noticeable in DPS. You change one item from +DMG/+CRIT to +DMG/+HASTE and while stat-weighing will tell you it's better your DPS will drop because from that one item you cannot gain the haste benefit.
When have no haste items and you get one haste item you will still be able to do 1CL/3LB nonstop. Very rarely will you have hit the marks so accurately as to go under the 6 seconds CL cooldown. (If you can please tell me your secret).
It will therefor be fairly similar for pure LB spam. And it will have a similar effect when you already have a bunch of haste and add one more. You are NOT getting the full benefit of one item of haste. Only higher jumps of haste rating really make sense and single items on their own (of comparable level) are not good upgrades.
Wait a second. If you're asking if it's possible to cast .02 or .04 seconds faster than X or Y, the answer is yes, of course it's possible. What Daidalos is pointing out is that perception is not the same as math, and what I'd like to point out is neither are the same as actual performance because there are way too many variables involved in human-machine interactions like this. Just because you don't feel like that 34 haste rating is useful on its own doesn't mean another player with less lag or faster keyboard mashing won't find it useful for them.
As for haste causing DPS drops, the question is purely about stat weights, period. When an actual stat weight is agreed upon for haste then we can discuss it.
Your point about LB/CL rotations is good, but even that is subjective. Can you argue that you hit your CL or LB buttons perfectly at the end of every cast of the previous spell, every single time? Can you argue that you cast spells exactly the same as every other player? The human involvement here makes a stat like haste a different experience for different people, so let's try to avoid making blanket statements about its useful/lessness.
Edit: I'd also like to echo what Diadalos said in that haste has so far NOT been shown to be quantized. Until you can show us that haste only affects spellcasting in steps of .1sec, all haste of any amount will decrease casting time by a fixed amount in accordance to the ratios of ratings that we already know.
Your point about LB/CL rotations is good, but even that is subjective. Can you argue that you hit your CL or LB buttons perfectly at the end of every cast of the previous spell, every single time? Can you argue that you cast spells exactly the same as every other player? The human involvement here makes a stat like haste a different experience for different people, so let's try to avoid making blanket statements about its useful/lessness.
Yes, don't get me wrong. With a rotaion having a spell that has no benefit from haste that will obviously throw off the value of haste, however the arguments that you don't notice .04 really has nothing to do with the relative value of haste vs crit or spell dmg.
If you argue that you that in practice have a 2.1s LB then there is a somewhat static .1s that you add between casts so reducing the LB time to 1.96 would make the LB spam effectivly 2.06s cast. I don't understand the "well its hard to time arguments" esp since the game queues the spell for you and people aren't stopcasting anymore.
My point was simply I don't care if you don't notice small increments that does not lead in any way what so ever that you should only do things in large increments. Adding 5 spell dmg will be almost statisticly unnoticeable in any normal boss fight that doesn't mean an additional 5 spell dmg doesn't result in more dps.
Perhaps I should re-phrase then. My 'perception' was based on WWS reports, and I didnt notice any benefit from switching from T5 shoulders to Pauldrons of the Furious Elements, and in fact I saw a downgrade since I had less crit and therefore less clearcasting uptime and DPS.
WWS Logs (I was only present for Lurker this night): Wow Web Stats
Now, I maintain top DPS or top 3 DPS in my guild for any number of reasons, which your guild may not share due to external factors.
I also use Quag's Eye for the Haste and I use Drums of Battle for more haste. Due to latency, reaction time, and the client itself, unless your haste reaches a certain point it's almost useless in terms of DPS. This is not to say that it does not increase your DPS - it certainly does, but you as the player cannot take advantage of it. +5 Spellpower is not 'noticeable' either, but it doesnt take any special action on your part to gain benefit from it.
Unless you stack spell haste, spell haste on one or two items is mostly worthless for the item budget it takes. That's the argument. Your reaction time, latency, and perhaps even hardware make haste less useful until it becomes more 'noticeable'. Even if you are mashing your keyboard button for Lightning Bolt, can you say that each mash comes 0.04 Seconds after the previous one, or in enough time for the client to queue the spell / cast it?
Theorycrafting in general has a difficult issue when matching calculated timing against real life timing. And my real timing experience shows that the Haste just wasnt worth it.
Theorycrafting in general has a difficult issue when matching calculated timing against real life timing. And my real timing experience shows that the Haste just wasnt worth it.
My point is an extension of this -- your real-life timing is likely not the same as my or random player X's real life timing, which is why haste is a very hard stat to qualify. Therefore it's probably not reasonable to dismiss it completely based on one person's experience.
My point is an extension of this -- your real-life timing is likely not the same as my or random player X's real life timing, which is why haste is a very hard stat to qualify. Therefore it's probably not reasonable to dismiss it completely based on one person's experience.
I agree with this. I'm not trying to dismiss haste as a good DPS stat, but it's one of the few DPS stats that just isnt worth it until you get enough of it, oddly enough, and too much of it potentially hurts you.
12/10/07, 6:38 PM
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