The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 23

Tejs · 01/03/08, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Well since you asked I'll repost my data.

Set 1:

Damage: 1429 without both trinkets. Could we use TLC and Hex Shrunken Head as the two trinkets? HSH should be 88 passive damage which would bring 1429 up to 1517, and TLC well I'm not sure. This 1429 value does not include 85 dmg totem as well.
Crit: 503
Hit: 153
Haste: 0

Set 2:

Damage: (1334 without both trinkets, 1422 including 88 from HSH. Also does not include dmg or haste from totems equip slot.)
Crit: 403
Hit: 134
Haste: 209

So same thing as before.
Set 1 : LB spam with Ancestral Totem
Set 1: LB spam with Skycall totem
Set 1: LBx3, CL with Ancestral Totem
Set 2: LB spam with Ancestral Totem
Set 2: LB spam with Skycall Totem

Thanks.

My simulator starts with just basic data (and the original idea was to base it off your character pane stats)

1) Spellpower (without Totem Relic Addition)
2) Critical Strike Chance (including talents, from your character pane)
3) Hit Chance (including talents, from your character pane, ex: 15.34% Hit of 16.00)
4) Haste Rating
5) Rotation

Disclaimer: There may be bugs with the simulator so please dont take this as gospel truth. I've tried to find and root out as many inaccuracies as I can, so these numbers should be accurate to within a decent degree. These numbers also reflect standing in one location for 10 minutes, spamming your rotation perfectly, with no lag, and no mana issues to worry about.

So with the examples posted above, I am going to input

Test Set 1
1) 1517, TLC Flag Enabled, Ancestral Totem Enabled, 4pc T6 Disabled, LO Enabled
2) 36.76% Crit (from your previous post)
3) 16.00% Hit
4) 0 Haste Rating
5) 1 LBs per 0 CL (LB Spam)
Results: http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2493/newsims1sl5.png

Test Set 2
1) 1517, TLC Flag Enabled, Skycall Totem Enabled, 4pc T6 Disabled, LO Enabled
2) 36.76% Crit
3) 16.00% Hit
4) 0 Haste Rating
5) 1 LBs per 0 CL (LB Spam)
Results: http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5051/newsims2eg9.png

Test Set 3
1) 1517, TLC Flag Enabled, Ancestral Totem Enabled, 4pc T6 Disabled, LO Enabled
2) 36.76% Crit
3) 16.00% Hit
4) 0 Haste Rating
5) 3 LBs per 1 CL (3x1 Rotation)
Results: http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3662/newsims3zz8.png

Test Set 4
1) 1422, TLC Flag Enabled, Ancestral Totem Enabled, 4pc T6 Disabled, LO Enabled
2) 32.235% (From Earlier)
3) 16.00% Hit
4) 209 Haste Rating
5) 1 LBs per 0 CL (LB spam)
Results: http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2949/newsims4rk2.png

Test Set 5
1) 1422, TLC Enabled, Skycall Totem Enabled, 4pc T6 Disabled, LO Enabled
2) 32.235% Crit
3) 16.00% Hit
4) 209 Haste Rating
5) 1 LBs per 0 CLs (LB spam)
Results: http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3972/newsims5vm0.png

Kasi · 01/03/08, 5:19 PM

Yeah should have said to enable 4 piece T6 in there too. I didn't know that the character panel included the spell crit for LB and such, because its not like we get spell crit for all, we just get it for certain spells.

Still its looking like the haste build is the best build, either using AT or Skycall. It seems the difference between the two is minimal. Since I like bigger numbers and positioning and moving around can mess skycall up, I'd probably go with the flat 85 damage. But still I think this shows there is a small dps difference between CL/3LB with perfect crit/dmg gear to LB spam with best haste gear added, even given loss of crit/dmg. It seems to be like 40-50 dps, which isn't bad, especially given that its more mana efficient.

Tejs · 01/03/08, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Yeah should have said to enable 4 piece T6 in there too. I didn't know that the character panel included the spell crit for LB and such, because its not like we get spell crit for all, we just get it for certain spells.

It doesnt really, Im just used to mentally adding it in my head (character pane + 14).

Binkenstein · 01/03/08, 5:48 PM

Oh, one other point: has anyone tested the actual cast time of an un-hasted LB? Even with the stopcasting changes I don't think that every cast will be exactly 2 seconds after the last one. May have an impact on DPS values if we've got a .2 second "lag" on each cast.

Tejs · 01/03/08, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Oh, one other point: has anyone tested the actual cast time of an un-hasted LB? Even with the stopcasting changes I don't think that every cast will be exactly 2 seconds after the last one. May have an impact on DPS values if we've got a .2 second "lag" on each cast.

Not I. However, I can add a manual lag modifier if you want to a test run. Timing is relatively easy to change with my simulator.

Kasi · 01/03/08, 6:18 PM

Would be nice too to see how CL with any haste on it interacts with the GCD.

Binkenstein · 01/03/08, 6:42 PM

Might do a quick run up to Dr Boom when I get home this evening, make a log, and then spam LB's until I go OOM.

Daidalos · 01/04/08, 4:13 PM

Yeah I'd like some detailed timing for LB spam so we could get a good average latency between spells. I been meaning to do this I need to get a good mod that shows time in 100ths of ms. I know they exist I just haven't gotten one yet.

Binkenstein · 01/05/08, 11:24 PM

Here's the edited down log, showing just the LB casts (removed the hunter farming Mana Wraiths, TLC/LO procs, and buff messages).

1/6 15:36:40.291  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1526 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:42.588  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3235 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:44.744  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3483 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:47.197  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1684 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:49.510  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3542 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:51.728  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3468 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:53.978  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1689 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:56.338  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1648 Nature damage.
1/6 15:36:58.635  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1702 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:01.135  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1551 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:03.244  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1547 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:05.494  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3084 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:08.213  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1505 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:09.947  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1508 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:12.291  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3139 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:14.338  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1540 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:16.978  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3139 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:19.260  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1521 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:21.385  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1483 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:23.650  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3101 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:25.947  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1505 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:28.603  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3163 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:30.541  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1553 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:32.728  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1488 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:34.916  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1676 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:37.291  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1710 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:39.666  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1643 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:41.822  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1694 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:44.338  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1668 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:46.713  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1674 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:48.713  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3575 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:51.072  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3183 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:53.385  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3195 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:55.525  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1507 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:57.947  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1502 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:00.135  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1512 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:02.416  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1486 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:04.603  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3101 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:07.088  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3193 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:09.275  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1525 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:11.697  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3246 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:13.822  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1515 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:16.322  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3211 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:18.994  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3110 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:21.494  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1549 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:24.057  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1479 Nature damage.
1/6 15:38:26.525  Your Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3244 Nature damage.

I'm usually running with a 350-400ms ping.

Doing a little math on my end, I come up with an average time between casts of 2.309

Binkenstein · 01/06/08, 6:48 PM

Also: new ShamStats up.

Set bonuses, gem socket bonus calculator, re-worked EP value calcs, and some UI updates.

Kasi · 01/06/08, 7:07 PM

Average time of 2.3? That seems odd. Doesn't the new spell queuing feature supposed to take care of that to a degree?

Binkenstein · 01/06/08, 7:19 PM

There is still going to be some delay, but this is a lot better than what it was previously, where I would have seen 2.6+

There is an anomaly in there, with a sub 2 second difference

1/6 15:37:08.213  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1505 Nature damage.
1/6 15:37:09.947  Your Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1508 Nature damage.

I think that it would be a good idea for others to test the same thing, and post their logs and ping, so we can see if there's still a ping impact, or if it was just me mashing the LB key.

Benjaimn · 01/07/08, 12:28 AM

Quick questions Kasi, in both of your gear sets (hasted and dmg/crit) you use full tier6, why would you use tier6 legs over Avalanche Leggings - Items - World of Warcraft ?

Kasi · 01/07/08, 2:03 AM

Well ideally I'd go with Kazrogal pants on probably both sets. I just used full T6 to make it simpler. From what Bink said before the two were very close, I think 146 to 147 in the sham stats setup?

iob · 01/07/08, 2:09 AM

Hi,

i just talented into elemental because i got flamed for producing too much overheal in my raid way too often... Well thats another topic.

I got the Tier6 4 Piece Bonus and i am currently wondering about the right amount of Spell Penetration. I have enchanted the 20 Penetration on my cloak, but it seems it is not enough. We did some bosses yesterday, let me show you the recap damage type info... I am currently at 15.55% hit with my gear and hit capped with totem of wrath, which was up like 99% of the time.

Archimonde:

Lurker Below

Tidewalker

Karatress

*Disclaimer: I am not that sure about those values below, correct me if i am wrong *

It seems that i get about 4-6% Resists due to "Nature Resistance" the bosses have. That equals like ~30 Resist (excluding my cloak penetration 50 resist). So these bosses seem to have arround 50 resist vs nature and i need to get rid of about 30 more resist. You think its worth socketing 2 x 13 Spell Penetration ([Stormy Empyrean Sapphire]) as I have to take 2 of those blue gems anyway for [Design: Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]?

Because i heard that Bosses are immune vs Penetration for a certain amount.... i heard something like 5 times the level above you.

Note: On fights like Morogrim and Lurker i did also Damage on the non-bosses - as well as i did damage on the various enemies at the Karatress Encounter.

Binkenstein · 01/07/08, 2:29 AM

Originally Posted by WoWWiki

For example, A level 70 player casts a fire spell at a level 73 raid boss with no innate resistance. The level difference is 3, so the raid boss has effectively 15 resistance to all schools against the level 70 caster. No matter how much spell penetration the caster has, his spell's resist check will always be done as if the target had 15 resistance.

Based on what you're seeing (probably be good to get more testing on this) throwing 3 [Radiant Talasite] in should do it (20 + 3x5 = 35) or [Mysterious Fire Opal]

Might go have a look at our WWS parses from the last few weeks to see how my resists have been.

Binkenstein · 01/07/08, 3:21 AM

That ~3% figure does keep popping up a fair bit.
Got a new cloak last night, so I finally got spell pen on it, so I'll throw a pair of radiants on and see how that affects things.

Binkenstein · 01/07/08, 3:50 AM

Doing some math, seems that 3% is from the level difference.

I'll see how I go tonight.

Nydus · 01/07/08, 5:52 AM

Quick question regarding the 2X/3X builds, does weapon mastery increase spells damage by 10% the way that the paladin 2h specialization and 1h specialization increases their holy damage?

Because in that case i can see 26/35 becoming the highest elemental damage, would need just about everything into hit tho, but all in all it sounds pretty spectacular.

Binkenstein · 01/07/08, 7:08 AM

Originally Posted by Nydus

Quick question regarding the 2X/3X builds, does weapon mastery increase spells damage by 10% the way that the paladin 2h specialization and 1h specialization increases their holy damage?

Because in that case i can see 26/35 becoming the highest elemental damage, would need just about everything into hit tho, but all in all it sounds pretty spectacular.

Any Elemental/Enh hybrid is going to be bad for raiding. About the only viable one would be the 15/46/0 build.
Weapon Mastery increases weapon damage. The Warrior/Paladin talents talk about physical/all damage respectively. There is no similarity in this case (and those are both Prot talents anyway).

I can see no way that an elemental focus hybrid would work outside of mucking around/grinding.

jourikdv · 01/07/08, 9:07 AM

I'm not sure I follow everyone saying that stopcasting was rendered obsolete due to the changes. Sure we don't need to make macros with it anymore but if you're still waiting for your cast bar to reach its end without casting the next spell you won't really see an improvement? Or maybe a tiny one since you'll cast right before it ends. This all assuming you're not using a cast bar that doesn't somehow show your latency discrepancy.

Stopcasting is no longer needed to send a new spell command to the server without messing up your current cast. You do still need to cast right at the latency cutoff to ensure highest DPS. It doesn't magically queue up and start at the fastest possible time as pressing it too early gives an action already in progress error.

Daidalos · 01/07/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by iob

Hi,

i just talented into elemental because i got flamed for producing too much overheal in my raid way too often... Well thats another topic.

I got the Tier6 4 Piece Bonus and i am currently wondering about the right amount of Spell Penetration. I have enchanted the 20 Penetration on my cloak, but it seems it is not enough. We did some bosses yesterday, let me show you the recap damage type info... I am currently at 15.55% hit with my gear and hit capped with totem of wrath, which was up like 99% of the time.

Archimonde:

Lurker Below

Tidewalker

Karatress

*Disclaimer: I am not that sure about those values below, correct me if i am wrong *

It seems that i get about 4-6% Resists due to "Nature Resistance" the bosses have. That equals like ~30 Resist (excluding my cloak penetration 50 resist). So these bosses seem to have arround 50 resist vs nature and i need to get rid of about 30 more resist. You think its worth socketing 2 x 13 Spell Penetration ([Stormy Empyrean Sapphire]) as I have to take 2 of those blue gems anyway for [Design: Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]?

Because i heard that Bosses are immune vs Penetration for a certain amount.... i heard something like 5 times the level above you.

Note: On fights like Morogrim and Lurker i did also Damage on the non-bosses - as well as i did damage on the various enemies at the Karatress Encounter.

I thought there would amount to be a 6% partial resist on any boss due to LB (same as fire for mages) being a non-binary spell. With 6% not helped by hit or penetration.

EDIT: Here is the quote from Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3

- NPCs gain a 2% chance to partially resist non-binary spells (i.e. those that can be partially resisted such as fireball) for each level above the player. Thus Boss NPCs have a 6% partial resist chance. This resistance can not be overcome with spell penetration or hit percentage.

Is this additional partial above the 2% per level or what? I'm confused. If not this a well known game mechanic....

Binkenstein · 01/07/08, 2:10 PM

Might have to revisit that assumption, based on the fact that with no penetration I was getting bellow that 6%, and the formula form WoWWiki suggests a different base resist.

Daidalos · 01/07/08, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Might have to revisit that assumption, based on the fact that with no penetration I was getting bellow that 6%, and the formula form WoWWiki suggests a different base resist.

Hm can you post some numbers Bink? A cursory glance at iob/chani's numbers shows close to 6% on archimonde which is the only boss posted where there is only lvl 73 mob(s). Alot more data is needed though. A single boss fight just isn't long enough to be reliable to a single percentage.

Binkenstein · 01/07/08, 3:53 PM

Closed the list I was making >.<

Here's the WWS listing anyway - Wow Web Stats

Al'ar - 4.4%
Rage - 3.9%, 3.4%
Tidewalker - 3.0% + 1.9% missed

The second Rage kill was my best performance of last year (topped that last night, again on Rage). Waiting for Thelyna to get the logs up so I can see how 30 spell penetration went. FYI: for those logs I had ZERO spell penetration.

Using the formula I linked earlier from WoWWiki, I've put together a spreadsheet (I love these things) that should calculate the % mitigation based on caster/target levels, targets resistance, and casters spell penetration.