The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 37

everwatch · 02/08/08, 7:46 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

No, they are not going to match.

He gives examples based on certain gear levels, my values come from your current gear levels, talents, consumables, buffs, and other settings.

If you want general figures, use his. If you want more accurate figures, use mine.
Be aware that Crit gets inflated due to the CC component of the spell.

More accurate figures? The figures here are not even remotely close. Not close AT ALL. And considering that you put his numbers up on your main page, which suggests some level of approval over his research, one would assume that even if they were off some, that they would at least be close. Or at the very least rate the stats in the same order of priority.

My numbers are very close to what Diadalos lists. So that would lend reason to think that while they should result in stats that would be different, that they would at least follow a similar trend. Since they do not, one can only assume that someone, or both of you, are wrong on some level. *OR* that your weights are calculated weighing totally different numbers/values. Which? I don't know...

My question again, as per last time, is which set of numbers is more accurate? His numbers tell me quite clearly to ditch several pieces of gear I have for Haste items, whereas your numbers tell me to do the opposite in a number of cases. And the disparity between gear selections using both of ya'lls numbers is actually quite vast. By rating them on a basis of every spell damage is worth 1 EP, the difference is worth sometimes 20 or more spell dmg. Totally skewing the reults on which items are best to use.

Yours (with my current gear)
Crit Rating 0.797 Ecrit
Haste 0.746 Ehast
Dmg 0.695 Edmg

Diadalos:
Haste rating 1.406
Dmg 1
Crit rating 0.7566

It isn't that I want to bust your chops or Diadalos. It's that I want to blow away the DPS and outperform everyone I can by being the very best at what I do. But your thread gives me 2 sets of numbers to use that don't remotely agree with each other. And since both of you are very respected for your advice on Ele DPS, I have to wonder why the 2 of you have results so skewed in nature.

Daidalos · 02/08/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

Yours (with my current gear)
Crit Rating 0.797 Ecrit
Haste 0.746 Ehast
Dmg 0.695 Edmg

Diadalos:
Haste rating 1.406
Dmg 1
Crit rating 0.7566

It isn't that I want to bust your chops or Diadalos. It's that I want to blow away the DPS and outperform everyone I can by being the very best at what I do. But your thread gives me 2 sets of numbers to use that don't remotely agree with each other. And since both of you are very respected for your advice on Ele DPS, I have to wonder why the 2 of you have results so skewed in nature.

Perhaps Bink has a bug with his mana use being factored in even if it shouldn't I'll post some numbers and you can confirm the theory craft yourself.

With
1532 + dmg (all buffs and relic included)
37.19% LB crit rate
3.81% haste (60 rating)

Rank 12	LB
avg hit dmg   avg dmg w/ crit   cast time    dps
1899.53        2866.55           1.927      1487.87
Now additional crit, dmg and haste calculations:
Crit% => Dmg
1.32crit %=>22.14 dmg
1899.53        2894.13           1.927      1502.19

Dmg => Crit%
22.16spell dmg=>1.32crit	
1917.82        2894.16           1.927      1502.21

Haste% =>Dmg
1Haste %=>22.16dmg
1899.53        2866.55           1.908      1502.21

• Binkenstein · 02/08/08, 5:23 PM

Let me say it again.

Crit gets a bonus due to the increase in procing ClearCasting.
Haste gets a penalty (if the option is set) from increasing mana use unless you have excess.

Wodi · 02/08/08, 5:37 PM

Nepenthe's first Kael kill back on 2-3-2008 I had a summary DPS of 1081 is that good for my gear.
Wodi - WWS
The World of Warcraft Armory
The only gear change was I had the "Vindicator's Pendant of Conquest" neck on during that fight becuase I just got my "The Sun King's Talisman" last night.

Daidalos · 02/08/08, 8:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wodi

Nepenthe's first Kael kill back on 2-3-2008 I had a summary DPS of 1081 is that good for my gear.
Wodi - WWS
The World of Warcraft Armory
The only gear change was I had the "Vindicator's Pendant of Conquest" neck on during that fight becuase I just got my "The Sun King's Talisman" last night.

63% dps time seemed low. The kael weapons are make it CL friendly fight so somewhat high dps is possible if you can up that dps time some more. Try ti minimize movement and drop totems whenever you do have to move.

everwatch · 02/09/08, 1:31 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Let me say it again.

Crit gets a bonus due to the increase in procing ClearCasting.
Haste gets a penalty (if the option is set) from increasing mana use unless you have excess.

Once you are at roughly a 40% crit rate man, you don't ever go OOM before a boss is dead if you manage your pots/water shield properly. Exceptions: Mother/Kaz'rogal/Phase 2 ROS where they drain your mana and there is no telling what will happen.

I don't know why you'd even worry about that considering that when you're at the point where your stats are so high, the mana regen effect isn't needed as much. As it is I run at 41/42% crit in a raid and I can sub in some Destruction Pots with no JoW/SP sometimes anyways. Before I used to have to pop a MAP every cd, but even then doing that I never went oom.

I want to know what will make me do the *MOST* DPS once I've kept myself at that 37%+ crit %. Losing 1% in 2.4 and using Haste items will drop me about 3-4% crit as well. So I'd drop down to about 36/37% crit. But then I can sub out haste for crit gear as needed.

Not everyone wants to know what stats give the highest longevity, but the best DPS possible. My issue is not being OOM before the boss dies. My issue is how do I do more DPS in the given time before the boss dies.

• Binkenstein · 02/09/08, 2:20 AM

New version allows you to turn off all mana related calculations for Elemental.

Happy now?

Added bonus: 2.4 talent changes (5/5 Call of Thunder = 5% crit) and the new gems have been added.

Kasi · 02/09/08, 3:55 AM

Yeah, I don't mind just losing one % crit. It seems odd that a bug lasted for so long. However compared to what we were rumored of hearing previously, thats pretty good. I just got 4p T6 tonight so going to be testing it out. For full damage I think I can beat 1550 dps on several fights, maybe even more. The other night on Rage without 4p bonus I was getting around 1600 dps, but then again I was having good luck with crits.

Noobshock · 02/09/08, 11:02 AM

Last Hyjal I almost hit 1800 on anetheron.
Used destro pot during heroism+drums

QQ at losing 1% crit, it's already getting hard to keep it up as you push haste.

Edit:
Oh sorry the almost 1800 was on Rage
Wow Web Stats

Anetheron I was above 1900
Wow Web Stats

Meggles · 02/09/08, 10:09 PM

What kind of changes should we expect to see with 2.4 as they are now allowing haste to lower our GCD to 1.0s?
Will these changes also effect when heroism is activated, as in all spells will be able to now have a 1.0s GCD?
What would the new "rotation" with respect to haste be when trying for max dps?

I know these are lots of questions but just throwing some of my thoughts out there for you guys to do your amazing work.

Rebaseke · 02/09/08, 11:11 PM

So finally after a few months I took the time to go kill Dr. Boom again a few times, this time testing the Sextant.
I don't know if I had bad luck or something like that but if I didn't then it seems that the internal cooldown on the Sextant is sometimes triggered without the proc actually triggering. I did 2x65 procs (One series with rank 12 lightning bolt on Dr. Boom and the other with rank 1 Lesser Healing Wave on myself) and counted the number of crits needed for a proc. I waited at least one minute after each proc before starting again.

The tests for LB were done followingly. I cast one LB, waited for it to hit/crit, then waited for any LO/TLC procs to hit/crit and then started casting a new LB. LHW was just spamming nonstop.

Here's the raw data, changed the order on the numbers for a more agreeable view. I don't really know if i should note everything over 10 crits for proc as anomalous. I used 15 atm since 15 and more crits take over 3 minutes to achieve for LB and 19 and 22 crits both took over 2:30 to achieve for LHW (first crits in those series were quite early, at least in the first 5 spells)

R12 LB:
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 7 8 8 8 10 10 11 12 12 16 17 19 19 20 28

Average: 3.932 or 25.43% / 5.4 or 18.52% (underlined are anomalous results)

R1 LHW
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 7 8 8 9 9 9 10 10 11 12 19 22

Average: 4.302 or 23.25% / 4.8 or 20.83% (underlined are anomalous results)

Sextant can proc off LO crits and TLC crits too so i counted those. I didn't do any tests using LB without LO talent and TLC to see if they were bugging the internal cooldown on Sextant or not because I had two anomalous test results with LHW too. Maybe someone can test it without LO and TLC later and see if they get any anomalous results.

Daidalos · 02/09/08, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Meggles

What kind of changes should we expect to see with 2.4 as they are now allowing haste to lower our GCD to 1.0s?
Will these changes also effect when heroism is activated, as in all spells will be able to now have a 1.0s GCD?
What would the new "rotation" with respect to haste be when trying for max dps?

I know these are lots of questions but just throwing some of my thoughts out there for you guys to do your amazing work.

Max dps rotation will depend on amount of haste. But basically you will use CL on everycool down much as you do now. There really aren't much changes game play wise other than CL being better than it is now with haste.

Nizari · 02/10/08, 1:04 AM

With regards to the large amounts of haste available just on shamanized loot.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5...amlootsdd5.jpg
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Flashfire Girdle
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...er_regalia.jpg
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Skycall Totem

I have never really bothered too much with theorycrafting as It doesn't get much simpler with the shaman... 3 LB 1 CL stack as much crit and damage as you can get your hands on.

But I believe with the whole 1 second GCD from haste rule and the fact that a lot of 2.4 loot has spell critical strike AND spell haste rating that a few things will change.

I heard that haste is bad because it means you have to do 4 LB and 1 CL which is actually less DPS... But I thought it was partly due to the fact that with chain lightning being 1.5 sec and heroism bringing lightning bolt to near 1.5 seconds cast it would be too much of a hassle on the GCD. The other main problem was that almost every caster piece with haste had zero crit, while casting faster reduces your mana pool faster, having less crit which IS our mana efficiency it would be a double negative.

Ok so I never knew the spell haste conversion, but with those shamanized loots the total haste rating would be 334. This is ignoring sockets and other pieces (I was looking into the JC neck as well as I want to drop lolerworking for JC. which would make it 359 still ignoring gems.

I am wondering what total % that amount of haste rating would equal in spell reduction, and if indeed, due to the perfect cool down of CL rotation with 3 LB's, it is a DPS decrease.

I mean ideally if you could get lightning bolt down to 1.5 seconds you could get in 4 between chain lightnings which I think would be about the top dps you could achieve.

Nizari · 02/10/08, 1:20 AM

Ok I just remembered it was about 15.X% from reading the notes on the patch that balanced it out with melee haste..

This amount would bring it very close to 1.5 seconds. I got 1.54... So with a few gems or another 1/2 pieces of haste you COULD get below 1.5 cast times for LB and therefore go 4X LB and 1X CL.

Anyone with more solid numbers able to confirm this? I'm also not certain how heroism/bloodlust affects the overall hast... i.e is it 30% from 1.5s or 30% of 2s taken off 1.5s?

auctorita · 02/10/08, 4:19 AM

The value of TLC in relationship to other trinkets seems to have changed drastically 2/9 shamstats. I can see how Skull of Gul'dan/Quag's would make a huge jump with haste changes, but not sure about the rest.

• Binkenstein · 02/10/08, 5:26 AM

I see what's wrong.
CL cast time problems cause a DEP value imbalance, and TLC was due to not adjusting the value for normalising stats.

• Binkenstein · 02/10/08, 6:55 PM

11/02/08 release
[e]Being a smart cookie, I modified the Quag haste calculation, and referenced it to the spell cast time which is based on haste which Quag's modifies.
Suffice to say, circular references are not your friend. Replace "lbca" with 2 and you'll fix it.

RK · 02/11/08, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by Moshne

That is exactly the reason I'm still wearing two pieces, until I can contribute the damage in my own output, I can't justify removing the 100 spell damage from the raid.

This is further complicated when you look at what 1 point of spell damage does for other classes compared to us, we scale rather poorly per point due to lack of empowerment talents, so the 20 damage to the 2-3 mages in your group, and the 20 for the cyclic nature of damage to mana to the shadowpriest makes it quite hard to remove, and all but impossible to model. I chose to stick with the head and shoulders myself, as they seemed to be the smallest "downgrades," but I'm looking forward to breaking it the second I get the head off Archimonde, which I hope to be in the next couple weeks.

I stuck with the head (no choice, we only got one shaman token for t5 helms from our Vashj kills and I didn't get it) and gloves; similarly will break it up for 2 piece t6 which will hopefully be in the next week or three (I have a shot at the helm this week if double protector drops, but it's just as like that no protector drops and puts it off for another week).

I think the reason you don't see more shaman wearing 2 piece t4 in raids is that people tend to be judged by meters a lot, and wearing gear that benefits the other casters at the expense of your personal DPS is often unappreciated (I made sure my group knew pretty much from SSC onwards that I would be keeping two-piece t4 until t6).

Kaideq · 02/11/08, 10:34 AM

Has anyone done any preliminarily calculations on the value of the Sky shatter 4 set bonus VS the known new items? The GC increases the worth of CL rotation wise thus also making LB a smaller % of totall dps, still the bulk though.
I'm bored at work and looking through the new stuff and basically piece for piece I'd swap just about everything out skyshatter wise.
Well I'd get the new boots but that's kinda it, the rest of the items seems vastly superior piece by piece, excluding the belt flashfire ftw that is if it ever decided to actually drop.

I was scrounging together all the loose stats, but kinda came to a halt on the gems, since there are no epic haste gems listed yet.

I'm interested to hear if there are any people that will aim for the 1.0 LB spam ;D I mean it does sound kinda cool. Hmm time to check that out after doing some real work ;D

Mind you this is just for kicks not a serious setup.
Hm been checking how far you could go, basically picked all items with max haste I could find and assumed epic haste gems would be 10 hast rating. I did only calculate passive haste rating though , no procs/use trinkets.
I got to 569 Haste rating , which translates into 1.468 sec cast time for LB.

The list:

Cowl of Gul'Dan
Pendant of Sun Fire
Erupting Epaulets
Garments of Crashing Shores
Bracers of nimble though
Botanist's Gloves of Growth
Flashfire Girdle
Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm
Sky Shatter Threads
Ring of Ancient Knowledge
Ring of Ancient Knowledge
Battle Masters Alacrity
Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer

Daidalos · 02/11/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kaideq

Has anyone done any preliminarily calculations on the value of the Sky shatter 4 set bonus VS the known new items? The GC increases the worth of CL rotation wise thus also making LB a smaller % of totall dps, still the bulk though.
I'm bored at work and looking through the new stuff and basically piece for piece I'd swap just about everything out skyshatter wise.
Well I'd get the new boots but that's kinda it, the rest of the items seems vastly superior piece by piece, excluding the belt flashfire ftw that is if it ever decided to actually drop.

I was scrounging together all the loose stats, but kinda came to a halt on the gems, since there are no epic haste gems listed yet.

I'm interested to hear if there are any people that will aim for the 1.0 LB spam ;D I mean it does sound kinda cool. Hmm time to check that out after doing some real work ;D

Mind you this is just for kicks not a serious setup.
Hm been checking how far you could go, basically picked all items with max haste I could find and assumed epic haste gems would be 10 hast rating. I did only calculate passive haste rating though , no procs/use trinkets.
I got to 569 Haste rating , which translates into 1.468 sec cast time for LB.

The list:

Cowl of Gul'Dan
Pendant of Sun Fire
Erupting Epaulets
Garments of Crashing Shores
Bracers of nimble though
Botanist's Gloves of Growth
Flashfire Girdle
Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm
Sky Shatter Threads
Ring of Ancient Knowledge
Ring of Ancient Knowledge
Battle Masters Alacrity
Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer

The GC reduction doesn't really reduce the percentage of dmg that LB accounts for. Remember that CL is on a 6 s cooldown. So given alot of haste you will being doing a 4LB 1 CL or even 5LB 1 CL. Looking at the new set peices I haven't done the math yet but I'd be fairly sure that wearing 4 pc on the boots belt bracers and gloves and the rest offset would be ideal.

I don't think anyone can seriously think about shooting for 1s LB. you would need something around 1575 passive haste to achieve this. Under lust I could see this being reached but not by stacking haste. It will still be a CL LB rotation for max dps when mana isn't an issue.

Kaideq · 02/11/08, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

The GC reduction doesn't really reduce the percentage of dmg that LB accounts for. Remember that CL is on a 6 s cooldown. So given alot of haste you will being doing a 4LB 1 CL or even 5LB 1 CL. Looking at the new set peices I haven't done the math yet but I'd be fairly sure that wearing 4 pc on the boots belt bracers and gloves and the rest offset would be ideal.

I don't think anyone can seriously think about shooting for 1s LB. you would need something around 1575 passive haste to achieve this. Under lust I could see this being reached but not by stacking haste. It will still be a CL LB rotation for max dps when mana isn't an issue.

If I am not mistaken the current max dps setup is fully hasted with purely LB's, with the GC change CL will actually enter the rotation again.
5LB/1 CL is def out of the spectrum, since 550+ haste to go under the 4/1 doesn't seem very viable, maybe on trinket/Heroism/Bloodlust.
My question is more , does the gear difference between the 3 items you would swap out as an extra for the 4 set exceed the 5% dmg increase.
Currently trying to do the math on that, it doesn't seem likely sofar though. And as such of setting different setups for the max stats, thus far I'm not inclined to use the belt though like you stated.

Kasi · 02/11/08, 12:33 PM

Well belt for sure isn't the greatest item out there. Boots and bracers are arguably best in slot though. Legs, chest, helm all seem no brainers to replace. Shoulders too most likely. Leaving gloves and belt. The difference between those two items and the better new ones is nowhere near the 5% dmg from LB on the set bonus.

Daidalos · 02/11/08, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kaideq

If I am not mistaken the current max dps setup is fully hasted with purely LB's, with the GC change CL will actually enter the rotation again.
5LB/1 CL is def out of the spectrum, since 550+ haste to go under the 4/1 doesn't seem very viable, maybe on trinket/Heroism/Bloodlust.
My question is more , does the gear difference between the 3 items you would swap out as an extra for the 4 set exceed the 5% dmg increase.
Currently trying to do the math on that, it doesn't seem likely sofar though. And as such of setting different setups for the max stats, thus far I'm not inclined to use the belt though like you stated.

I dont' think even the current max dps is a pure LB spam. I think we simply showed that hasted LBs can match non hasted LB/ CL rotation. There is of course a crossover for CL->LB on higher dps but its fairly difficult to achieve.

Doing some rough comparisons with 1816 total LB/CL spell dmg (includes relic, food, flask, oil etc)
300 passive haste
42% crit
the 4 pc bonus of 5% extra LB dmg adds about 80 dps in a LB spam rotation. I don't think there will be any single item upgrading from BT/hyjal -> sunwell that will produce that much difference. So now its a matter of which 4 pc should we wear for the optimal set.

• Binkenstein · 02/11/08, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

The GC reduction doesn't really reduce the percentage of dmg that LB accounts for. Remember that CL is on a 6 s cooldown. So given alot of haste you will being doing a 4LB 1 CL or even 5LB 1 CL. Looking at the new set peices I haven't done the math yet but I'd be fairly sure that wearing 4 pc on the boots belt bracers and gloves and the rest offset would be ideal.

I don't think anyone can seriously think about shooting for 1s LB. you would need something around 1575 passive haste to achieve this. Under lust I could see this being reached but not by stacking haste. It will still be a CL LB rotation for max dps when mana isn't an issue.

I'll be going with Shoulders/gloves/bracers/boots.
Latter two are "best in slot" so far, and gloves/shoulders are minor upgrades in comparison to helm/chest, belt seems a bit lack-luster in comparison to Anatheron's or Flashfire (which I might actually pick up now that haste is actually practical now), and the legs are replaceable now.

I've also got a 2.4 version of the LB/CL rotation vs LB spam calculation I posted earlier (had to get some BBers to help with the algebra) so I'll throw that up later.

Croaker · 02/11/08, 8:53 PM

EDIT: I read it backwards. Nevermind.