Anyone else notice a complete lack of elemental shaman crafted gear? Looks like there's great stuff for just about every other class except for hybrid casters, that is unless you are a tailor.

We got shafted w/ the BT haste stuff and the trend continues in Sunwell. Seems like since we're a very small minority of players they decide its not worth it to add those kind of recipes? Sigh hopefully its just that they haven't surfaced/been added yet.

This sort of stuff is best kept to 2.4 threads than here. Complaining about gear is something that isn't really something we need in this thread.

Curious to see if the new weapon enchant "Deathfost" will play a roll in future DPS. Thottbot somehow comes up with a 50% proc rate, as to how it came up with that is anyone's guess.

If it does have a high proc rate, no internal cooldown, and can proc off LO it might be worth getting our hands on.

Blizzard admitted that the T6.5 vendor is unfinished (atm has 0 hunter/enh shaman gear, people think that these 2 sets will be interchangeable). This patch is far, FAR from the finalized version that will be implemented live. All of the information out there is data mined or off of test kills. Meaning that the Leatherworking patterns may exist and are still undiscovered, or Blizzard has not finished those patterns yet and will implement them before 2.4 goes live. I have a feeling that Test will be up for 3+ weeks before 2.4 nears finality. And I disagree with being shafted on haste gear as an Elemental Shaman. Before this patch, in BT we had a quandary associated with too much haste (Global on CL) but now in 2.4.0 we can go below that global. To help us move past the previous haste barrier, all of the new T6 has haste or potential to socket in haste and the mail T6.5 elemental gear is arguably better than any of the cloth T6.5 because it has no spirit and increased spell crit / haste as a result
Boomkin can't really use Wrath with any appreciable spell haste because of global conflict after critting. I saw little reason not to itemize cloth as a boomkin to stack spell haste for Starfire spam, since the spirit is not completely wasted on a druid (if you grab intensity) and the armor loss is less. Even as Elemental I use 1 piece of cloth and 1 leather. Relying on Cloth isn't outlandish as a hybrid caster in BT, and it works.

Wait a couple weeks before assuming any lack of itemization on Test.

You might be right about that since the belt is rather "meh". Shoulders are the next smallest in itemization after gloves so since the belt is mostly sub par with tons of mp5, it may be better to use nonset belt.

I haven't had a chance yet but has anyone else put together what all the stats on sunwell decked ele sham would be sporting? Just curious how much of a dps increase we can get.

Depends if this stacks with thunder clap. If it is, i would force our elemental shaman to take this enchant.

If the proc works on bosses, I wonder how much threat it will cause. Any substantial threat gain from the proc's effect might make it unusable by DPS casters in PvE.

There is no additional threat modifiers, just threat from damage. As for tank enchant - in situation where you really need extra 15% slow on boss, mongoose will be much better for tank.

Sorry for this derail - but "mongoose will be much better for a tank" statement there was Very weak.

If it would stack additive, it's 35% increase on swings. 35% of a 2 second attackspeed from a boss is 2.7s.
Boss hits for 5k dmg, can't crush, cant crit, that's 2080 DPS with just imp TC. With this debuff it would be 1850 DPS from the boss. More than 200 DPS diffrence.

Could mongoose mitigate more in this scenario?

There is alot of "if"s and they dont belong here, so I'm sorry for derailing, but this enchant _can_ be a very viable tank enchant depending how it turns out. If it will be a DPS increase for casters however, it would be pointless to use it for a tank. So I guess we'll see

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Sorry for the derail. :/

I worked on my spreadsheet a little curious on what kind of dps we could expect. This is total guesstimation of sunwell stats. I need to sit down and add up stuff and get better modeling of trinkets but I don't think this is entirely unreasonable.

1816 total spell dmg (food flask relic oil etc).
350 haste rating
41% crit
4pc t6 bonus
150ms between casts
Elemental focus is factored into mana useage:

4LB 1 CL rotation.
2007 dps. uses 740 mp5

LB spam
1952dps. uses 540 mp5

You getting it wrong. I meant that for really hard hitting boss where you want to benefit from deathfrost its much better to have deathfrost bitch (and elemental shaman seems perfect for me, maybe shadow priest if this thing procs from dots) and tank would still have mongoose.

I think the potential for the enchant to be useful as a DPS benefit is qualified to be discussed here, let me know if I am wrong. Would be nice if someone could produce a tested proc rate (ppm? %?), and find out if the dmg still applies even if the mob is immune to the slow effect, and if there is any scaling to the proc dmg from base cast time, can it crit etc. It is an interesting dynamic for Elemental since we get free instant L.O. casts that might be able to up the proc rate if it is % based on cast time. If the proc is PPM however then there is no real difference in dps for us over say a mage or a rogue. 150 flat frost dmg proc (benefit from CoE?) vrs 40 spell dmg to every cast (before coefficient).

Once the mechanics of the enchant are worked out, then we can discuss it here, rather than having the same discussion here, in other class threads, and even the 2.4 threads.

Yes please take this discussion out of the thread. If you want to create a new thread discussing the enchant and it's mechanics. To put it in the theorycrafting elemental shaman thread is silly. Especially when the discussion is coming down to which class to force it on.

I went and did some testing at Dr. Boom in Netherstorm.

No raid buffs. I just used my gear + totems + consumables. Flask of Blinding Light + Superior Wizard Oil + Spell Damage food.

I did 2 runs with Haste gear. And 2 runs with no Haste gear. I don't have WWS, but I'll list my numbers for you.

NOTE: I started the timer when I dropped the first totem before casting anything. Casting the first totem = the start of the timer. These are the averages of 2 runs each.

No haste:
9758 mana, 192 MP5, 1500 Spell Damage, 44.07% spell crit, chugging Mad Alchemist Potions
4 min and 33 seconds, 408k dmg done, 1459 dps

With haste:
9878 mana, 186 MP5, 1442 Spell Damage, 39.41% spell crit, chugging Mad Alchemist Potions
4 min and 14 seconds, 407k dmg done, 1663 dps

There was some human error, missing a click right on the nose between timers, etc... But the difference in margin was more than enough to answer my question for me.

If I am not going OOM before the Boss is dead, Diadalos's(sp?) numbers seem to reflect much more accurate numbers for attaining top end DPS.

For haste gear I swapped in Spiritwalker Gauntlets, Belt of the Crescent Moon, Shadowcaster's Drape, and Brooch of Nature's Mercy. Caused a 1.5 cast speed reduction. Spell Damage did include Aura of the Crusader in the total, but did not count Sextant or MH exalted ring procs. All other damage is static.

A few points
One, dropping totems adds another variable to the equation. Drop em.
Two, chugging potions adds another variable. Stop it.
Three, four tests is hardly conclusive. I would suggest doing 10 repetitions of each, to provide more data.

Lastly, if you think there is a problem with the way I'm calculating mana use, feel free to suggest alternatives.

Basically as far as pure dps goes 1% haste > 1%crit. The 40 % is thrown out as a reasonable target for those who need crit for mana regen. If you aren't having mana problems you could go with 30% crit and still do great assuming that you itemize intelligently.

Potions are bad enough, but don't use Mad Alchemists Potions in anything you hope to use for analysis. You're trying to reduce randomness, not insert it deliberately.

I've noticed you saying that Shoulders/Gloves/Bracers/Boots will be the choice you would make for T6 items (in terms of trying to uphold the T6 4piece imba bonus).
But, you also state that both the Bracers and Boots are best in slot...

Is this really true?
Cause, from what I've researched so far, the boots are still surpassed in pure DPS by the Nature Warden's Treads, and the Boots of Oceanic Fury considering the new boots give hit in stead of crit.
I'm just making a list for myself here, and without filling the belt or boot slot, I'm already at 55 hit rating, which would render the extra 24 hit on the boots useless...

Are they still worth more then other boots if you would take the 5% lightning bolt into account?

By my rough calculations T6 4 piece bonus is roughly worth ~110 spell damage. Mainly it makes my LB hit for 2k instead of 1900. The new boots and shoulders are not a 110 spell damage increase over the old ones. They certainly are better, but I don't think by that much.

Also got to look at the gear in this light. The new gloves, head, legs and chest have a combined 0 hit rating. Neither do the belt or bracers. Neither weapon from Sunwell that we would be interested in have hit rating. Not sure about rings or amulets, but probably not high on hit either. Which means yes we'll need to get spell hit from somewhere. It looks like T6 boots and shoulders should be good spots to get them from.

I have been following the discussion about haste for a few weeks now and am a huge fan of Binkenstein's shamstats and I think i have come to a place where i can add something to the discussion. Here is what I have gotten from playing with shamstats, the game, and reading these forums.

1. Haste is bad because it uses more mana due to more casts over a period of time.
2. Haste is bad because you cannot use a 3:1 LB/CB rotation.
3. A 3:1 Rotation is best because of the bonus base damage but mostly because it is a 25% faster cast.

A 4:1 rotation can equal a 3:1 rotation in DPS if the casting time is reduced. Bink has shown some formula's and a graph to prove this and has shown the break even point to be 5% spell haste (80 rating).

When this happens my points 1 through 3 change. Point number 1 becomes false at a certain haste rating because chain lightning, our highest mana cost cast, becomes a smaller percentage of our rotation. A 3:1 rotation costs 1332 mana with no clearcasting and with no haste comes out to 178 mana/sec. A 4:1 rotation is 1548 mana with no clear casting and at 5% haste (DPS break even point) it is 170 man/sec. Unfortunately point number 1 is still true as ones haste goes up. I graphed this out and here is a summery of my results.

At a haste rating of 140 the mana/s cost of a 4:1 rotation and a 3:1 roatation become the same.
After a haste rating of 140 the mana costs goes up 1 mana/s every 7.5 haste.
At 400 Haste rating the cast time of LB is 1.5 seconds and you could go to a straight LB spam.
Note: With GCD affected by haste now there will always be a benefit to cast CL because it will always be a faster cast.

All of that is not taking clear casting into consideration mostly because I didn't take the time to figure it out properly. But if all mana use is cut in 1/2 that means 15 haste rating increases mana use per second by one.

For me this is all useful for the the following reasons:

1. Haste is not as negative on mana as I previously thought.
2. From A haste rating of 0-140 I will actually save mana. But I would want a minimum of 80 haste so as not to take a DPS penalty.
3. Haste above 140 can be seen as a mana penatly of 3 haste = -1/mp5. (15haste = -1/mp1 -> 3 haste = -1/mp5)

If you look at Binkenstein's Haste vs Damage graph the curve tops out around 230 haste for 2.3 but more like 140 in 2.4. So in 2.4 a haste rating of 140 might actually be a sweet spot for damage and mana use.

Hope that helps someone like me that is trying to figure out their itemization.

Thanks for providing a static guestimate of the spell damage, that makes it indeed heaps easier to calculate sets and items after 2.4.
Yet, you say, get the hit from the boots and shoulders (T6), while that is completely right, I do think we'll end up with about 24 hit too many over our cap (hence, wasted hit). Of course, we can get another talent over the hit talents, but I honestly do not know which talent would suit our dps build in stead...
Extra range perhaps...

These are the items I've listed so far (only in doubt still about the waist), and do note, this is not a "can you give feedback" list, this is just to make known from where I get that extra 24 hit rating.

[Lightning Etched Specs]
[Pendant of Sunfire]
[Skyshatter Mantle]
[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
[Garments of Crashing Shores]
[Skyshatter Bands]
[Skyshatter Gauntlets]
[Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm]

As you see, I have not calculated the boots yet, and this list would bring you at a hit rating of 55 (4 over the cap). So, take the boots into account (which will have to, cause the belt isn't that good at all) and you'll get an extra 24 hit rating, bringing the total to 79 (28 over the cap).

This "abbundance" of hit rating is of course not an issue if one doesn't go for the engineering goggles, yet, I have to say that I have not really found a worthy replacement for it.
But yeah, I would think those stats are not completely to waste since that gear set does provide quite enough crit and dmg as well...