The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 39

Daidalos · 02/13/08, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bouchkevka

I have been following the discussion about haste for a few weeks now and am a huge fan of Binkenstein's shamstats and I think i have come to a place where i can add something to the discussion. Here is what I have gotten from playing with shamstats, the game, and reading these forums.

1. Haste is bad because it uses more mana due to more casts over a period of time.
2. Haste is bad because you cannot use a 3:1 LB/CB rotation.
3. A 3:1 Rotation is best because of the bonus base damage but mostly because it is a 25% faster cast.

A 4:1 rotation can equal a 3:1 rotation in DPS if the casting time is reduced. Bink has shown some formula's and a graph to prove this and has shown the break even point to be 5% spell haste (80 rating).

When this happens my points 1 through 3 change. Point number 1 becomes false at a certain haste rating because chain lightning, our highest mana cost cast, becomes a smaller percentage of our rotation. A 3:1 rotation costs 1332 mana with no clearcasting and with no haste comes out to 178 mana/sec. A 4:1 rotation is 1548 mana with no clear casting and at 5% haste (DPS break even point) it is 170 man/sec. Unfortunately point number 1 is still true as ones haste goes up. I graphed this out and here is a summery of my results.

At a haste rating of 140 the mana/s cost of a 4:1 rotation and a 3:1 roatation become the same.
After a haste rating of 140 the mana costs goes up 1 mana/s every 7.5 haste.
At 400 Haste rating the cast time of LB is 1.5 seconds and you could go to a straight LB spam.
Note: With GCD affected by haste now there will always be a benefit to cast CL because it will always be a faster cast.

All of that is not taking clear casting into consideration mostly because I didn't take the time to figure it out properly. But if all mana use is cut in 1/2 that means 15 haste rating increases mana use per second by one.

For me this is all useful for the the following reasons:

1. Haste is not as negative on mana as I previously thought.
2. From A haste rating of 0-140 I will actually save mana. But I would want a minimum of 80 haste so as not to take a DPS penalty.
3. Haste above 140 can be seen as a mana penatly of 3 haste = -1/mp5. (15haste = -1/mp1 -> 3 haste = -1/mp5)

If you look at Binkenstein's Haste vs Damage graph the curve tops out around 230 haste for 2.3 but more like 140 in 2.4. So in 2.4 a haste rating of 140 might actually be a sweet spot for damage and mana use.

Hope that helps someone like me that is trying to figure out their itemization.

On average with ~40 crit teh LB and CL cost due to clear cast will be about 70% of the tooltip. A 50% reduction is not really viable even with a 50% crit rate it would still be 67% of the tooltip mana cost.

Assuming a worst case scenario where JoW and no spirest you can expect about 329 mp5 (50 from water shield, 50 from mana spring, 49 from blessing of wisdom, 100 from chain mana pots, and another 80 or so from gear and talents)

40%crit
140 haste

Spell		LB12	CL6
Cast time		1.94	1.48
Cooldown		1.00	6.00
Mana Cost		270.00	684.00
Mana Cost inc EF	193.63	490.53
clearcast chance	0.71	0.71


4LB 1 CL rotation:
Mana Consumed/5s	Mana gained/5s	NetLoss/5s             Sec before OOM
685.7063495	369		316.71                  184.3663699

LB spam:
Mana Consumed/5s	Mana gained/5s	NetLoss/5s             Sec before OOM
499.89		369		130.89                   446.0953545

Kasi · 02/13/08, 3:52 PM

The [Cowl of Gul'dan] is pretty much in all ways superior to the engineering helm. More damage, better socket color, comparable crit (the int brings it up to similar levels), and 30+ spell haste instead of worthless spell hit.

Degruune · 02/13/08, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

The [Cowl of Gul'dan] is pretty much in all ways superior to the engineering helm. More damage, better socket color, comparable crit (the int brings it up to similar levels), and 30+ spell haste instead of worthless spell hit.

I have to apologize here, I didn't do the correct calculations on it and I didn't value the extra haste higher then the small lack of crit (about 13 crit rating difference with the engineering helm)
So yes, I will have to agree here that the extra 32 haste rating is much more valuable then the 13 crit rating you lose.
The list matches out in that case, cause the abundance of hit is almost negated by dropping the engineering helm.

Thanks for making me redo the math

[E] damnit, forgot to calculate in the meta gem, this will drop the crit rating difference to 1... easy choice I'd say...

Daidalos · 02/13/08, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Degruune

Thanks for providing a static guestimate of the spell damage, that makes it indeed heaps easier to calculate sets and items after 2.4.
Yet, you say, get the hit from the boots and shoulders (T6), while that is completely right, I do think we'll end up with about 24 hit too many over our cap (hence, wasted hit). Of course, we can get another talent over the hit talents, but I honestly do not know which talent would suit our dps build in stead...
Extra range perhaps...

These are the items I've listed so far (only in doubt still about the waist), and do note, this is not a "can you give feedback" list, this is just to make known from where I get that extra 24 hit rating.

I noticed you included the gloves (resto) instead of the gauntlets.

So our end game gear is looking something like the following: Lets try to nail now the optimal end game full set then if there is any debate we can do some additional TC looking at it so far we got something like.

[Cowl of Gul'dan]
[Pendant of Sunfire]
[Skyshatter Mantle]
[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
[Garments of Crashing Shores]
[Skyshatter Bands]
[Skyshatter Gauntlets]
[Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm]
[Skyshatter Treads]

Haven't found a good belt and WOWDB stopped responding for some reason. What are other people looking at for the ideal set.

Degruune · 02/13/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

I noticed you included the gloves (resto) instead of the gauntlets.

fixed, it was of course not my intention to include healing gloves

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Haven't found a good belt and WOWDB stopped responding for some reason. What are other people looking at for the ideal set.

Well, Flashfire is quite good but, the above set will already grant you 160 haste rating and I'm not sure if higher rating is still beneficial (reading a few posts above about the 140 rating).

My choice would be either to pickup [Flashfire Girdle] for some allround stats, or [Anetheron's Noose] for pure spell damage.
But, which would be best is something I'm not that good at and mostly relying on the mathemagicians here on elitists.

everwatch · 02/13/08, 5:26 PM

A few comments and replies.

First off a rl friend of mine who read a few of the posts said I could be coming off as an ass and trash talking Bink. So first and foremost I would like to apologize and also say that I appreciate very much all of the hard work that Bink and the rest of the posters here have done on this thread and other related projects.

Don't drop totems on a test:
First off, not dropping totems is just foolish. It's just as bad of an idea as only doing theoretical work with no field testing to back up the numbers. In a raid (which is where I am the most concerned/interested as to my dps output) I will have to recast totems every 2 minutes. If I don't, I am not doing my job. You have to consider the impact that totems will have upon your performance in a raid. You will not be spamming cast rotations in a raid, you will be dropping totems, drinking pots, etc... If *you* want to base your decisions upon situations that can't ever happen in a raid, then that's fine. Buy I'm sticking with what I have to do in a raid.

Don't drink MAP's because it's too variable:
Well first off you are right on the variance. On one of the haste runs I got 2 minimum returns on the pot and was very disappointed. And yes, this can skew numbers. However again - in a raid, you *will* be chugging pots. And if it's not a mana pot of some kind, then it better be a Destruction Pot if you're bringing your A game. I personally use MAP's over mana potions. I don't really need the slightly extra mana from a SMP, and sometimes the extra health really helps the healers out. In the end, I can maintain a top5 dps position by using them, so I see no reason to stop using them. For testing purposes again - I am *not* interested in theoretical potentials that do not use variables that I will have to deal with in a raid. Drinking MAP's is a variable that *I* personally do I have to deal with on every raid.

4 tests is not 100% accurate:
You are 100% without a doubt right. There is no question. I whole heartedly agree with you. For more accurate numbers you'd want at least 30 min test scenarios with the use of over 20 pots minimum. However I do not feel the need to prove to the nay sayers that I'm right with perfect test scenarios using a control factor. The fact is that if 2 sets of tests showed such a massive improvement, then even if the true differential was smaller, it would still be a differental that favored Haste. I don't need to know whether it's by 5%, 50%, 100% or even 200%. Just so long as I know which one is going to net me MORE DPS, then I have my answer. I didn't just come out of the blue and say, "Hey Haste is better!" Daidalos did.

Daidalos has tests and numbers which showed that Haste was greater. His stat weights were what I thought were accurate. In the little testing I did, his numbers were not proven by a small margin leaving a large room for error. They were proven by quite a large landslide. Again, I have not been looking what will do the most total damage before I go OOM. I am looking for what will net me the highest sustained DPS possible.

Cast rotations:
In MH/BT raid environments I have tried using maxed spell damage/spell crit gear with no haste using full 5/5 T6 armor using the 3:1 cast rotation. If you don't have a SP or JoW, even using an Alchemist Stone with Super Mana Pots (SMP) I find going OOM is sometimes unavoidable. When dropping CL from that rotation and sticking to regular trinkets and just LB spam (with the 4 set T6 bonus), I found I did more total DPS and total dmg done, and would not go OOM before a boss died.

Theoretically CL rotations are superior DPS. But as Bink has pointed out time and time again, if you are OOM you are not doing damage. On longer boss fights, CL rotations are not always feasible if you do not have JoW/SP available. Depending on your group makeup, JoW availability, the duration of the boss fight (probably the biggest factor involved), and your gear...whether you should use a 3:1 or 4:1 rotation is relatively mutable. Each scenario will dictate a different answer.

Generally speaking, in my raid experience, I find that avoiding CL rotations (with T6 4 set) when I do not have JoW or a SP in my group is the wisest decision. It allows me to pop Destruction Pots when I use Drums of Battle and Heroism, typically netting a massive DPS gain. However if I get JoW/SP, then I work in CL quite frequently.

My personal opinion: There is no right answer to CL rotations. It depends on your gear, your group makeup, your raid makeup, the length of the fight, downtime to regen mana, etc... Sometimes it's good, sometimes not. I don't think you can have a hard and fast solid rule.

Personal observations on Haste:
Don't use only 1 or 2 items for haste. I didn't find that it would always net a DPS increase. I actually noticed a DPS loss when only using 2 Haste items on some tests. Good rule of thumb is to net a cast time of 1.90 seconds or less. Even 1.91 is not enough. If you don't break 1.90 cast time, the Haste you have is not netting you enough. Whether it's latency or lag or whatever, you need at least a 0.1 second cast reduction.

Don't fall under 36% crit rate. Personally I think you want to stay as near 40% as possible, but if you start dipping under 36% crit when fully buffed, you need to re-examine your gear selections. Haste is good, assuming you kept your 16% spell hit and a solid spell crit rate. *IF* you have a good SP or JoW, you may find that you can drop below that easily. If you have both, you could probably drop as low as 30% crit. If you do get both in a raid, I would like to personally kill you in a mad fit of jealousy at how lucky you are.

While I am a bit of a numbers cruncher - I am really more of a practical player. I go by what I see happen when I'm in my raids. My personal goal is to be able to consistently monkey stomp the Locks in my guild and to be able to beat our best Rogue (who has a Warglaive) at least some of the time. You may laugh, but those are my goals. I pay very close attention to SW and Recount both, using both as a redundent dmg checker. And I constantly swap gear pieces trying to find the ultimate combinations. I'm sorry if I'm not as interested in all of the perfectly theoretical scenarios. I just want to find out what will improve me in a real time Raid Environment.

Lastly, with all of this being said, at a lower gear status, I think Bink's spreadsheet will give lower geared Shaman much more accurate and feasible numbers. I used to *ALWAYS* go OOM when I had crappier gear. I had such a problem I had to drop one of my farming TS's in order to pick up Alchemy to get the Alchemist Stone just to keep up. And if you are having mana issues, the stat weights that Bink has go beyond good. They're most likely far more beneficial to you than Daidalos's numbers ever will be.

As an Elemental Shaman I think there are 2 different stat weights you have to consider. Bink's properly reflect the stat weights if you are going OOM too often and have to remedy this fact. Whereas Daid's reflect the stat weights if you killing the boss before you go OOM. Neither are wrong. They just both reflect two different status points that an Ele Shaman will deal with. KEEP IN MIND!!! No matter how bad ass you are, if your guild is lacking on DPS, and the fights are extended because of that, going OOM becomes a serious issue.

If you wanted to change anything Bink, I'd only suggest at looking at how much value you give to spell crit rating for mana conservation. I think you almost want to look at spell crit like spell hit. Once you have reached a certain ceiling, there is no point in attaining any more if other stats are available. My personal ceiling is 40%. If I hit the 40% mark, I start looking for alternative gear pieces to swap around, or to regem something.

Kasi · 02/13/08, 5:28 PM

Of course one thing to add in is that you could get the helm off your first night of trash farming for the engineering pattern. The cowl almost certainly drops off Kil'jaeden. That is several months more of actual use on the engineering hat, which imo makes it worthwhile. Of course you'd want to eventually replace it with the Cowl, but thats not going to happen anytime soon, especially given the time gap in between bosses 3 and 4.

43 int should be roughly .59% crit with Kings though, which will make the Cowl 2.22% spell crit to the Engineering helm's 2.4%. This to me makes the cowl a clear winner. However like I said the engineering hat is much easier to get, so I'd say get both. Don't wait 2-3 months for an upgrade, even with how good T6 hat is, T2 engineering is still better. (well as long as you don't lose 4p T6)

As for what to use for endgame stuff? Well we really don't know what the Sunwell neck or cloak options are. I'm certain they will be better than either the JC pendant or the IC cloak. We know weapon will be Sunflare from Kil'Jaeden. No idea yet on shield or if there will be a better totem. Same with rings.

It seems a clear no brainer to get 4p T6. It also is a clear no brainer to upgrade legs, chest, helm, and bracers. Waist and boots aren't quite as big an upgrade, but now we have 5 pieces of T6 to consider to keep our bonus. Bracers, belt, boots, shoulders and gloves. Bracers is obvious, we use those. Which of the other 3 is the weakest upgrade over new or other pieces? Well T6 - > Erupting we get RY instead of BY and we get 3 crit, 7 damage, 24 haste and lose 11 hit and 4 mp5. T6 gloves to shadowmoon is we gain an actual socket (RB instead of Y) and lose 3 dmg, gain 2 crit, lose 19 hit, gain 24 haste. If we just say a gem is about 10 actual stat points here, then gloves obviously gain a bit more.

So what would one gain/lose?
a) 3 crit, 7 dmg, 24 haste : 11 hit, 4 mp5
b) 2 crit, -3 dmg, 24 haste, one socket : 19 hit

Suppose it depends if we need that 8 hit difference or not. I likely won't since I'm Draenei. I only need 3% spell hit which is pathetically easy to get. I'll pretty much get it from hat, boots and whichever one of gloves/shoulders I keep. One other thing to add is that gloves are a trash drop, hence something you'll probably see a lot of. With that I'd prefer to take the new gloves and keep T6 shoulders. (sadly the only piece of T6 I lack)

So for me on the 4 piece bonus I'd go with shoulders and the 3 new pieces. Yes there are old pieces like Akama's belt that are nice, but the difference between T6 and Akama is smaller than that between T6 shoulders/gloves and their replacements. Plus with haste being piled on everywhere, I kind of like that T6 belt has just dmg, crit and mp5 with a good socket bonus. It's going to be easy to get over 230 spell haste already.

Kasi · 02/13/08, 5:37 PM

In response to everwatch:

Well I tend to look at it not from an mp5 issue. It just isn't an issue anymore for me. With 42%+ crit raid buffed, the new water shield/T6 2 piece as well as a shadow priest (which I always have) I never go out of mana dpsing. Ever. The only times I have lately is when doing things like spamming LHW on tanks/fel rage targets in oh shit moments. But from a pure dps'ing standpoint I really can't run oom. I don't even have to pot very much anymore.

It's not even a matter of fight duration. It's just the buffs I've gotten plus my natural mana regen from gear as well as a high crit rate. Now sure the amount of spell haste we're going to be getting will make me burn more mana, but I can just drink some mana pots then. Also another thing to point out is that much of the new gear has lower mp5 values. Which could hurt us a bit. But then again we can just drink some more mana pots.

I can't stress enough the value of the 4p bonus though. At my gear level its about 110 spell damage. With the gear available in sunwell, that probably goes up to around 130 or so. I doubt there is any combination of gear with the 3 new pieces plus one old piece that gives us 110 damage upgrade, unless later parts of sunwell drop superior boots/bracers/belts. Which would be really imo stupid since they tokenized all of that. We don't need another repeat of bosses in the tier dropping 2 different bracers for the same class/build.

Daidalos · 02/13/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Degruune

fixed, it was of course not my intention to include healing gloves

Well, Flashfire is quite good but, the above set will already grant you 160 haste rating and I'm not sure if higher rating is still beneficial (reading a few posts above about the 140 rating).

My choice would be either to pickup [Flashfire Girdle] for some allround stats, or [Anetheron's Noose] for pure spell damage.
But, which would be best is something I'm not that good at and mostly relying on the mathemagicians here on elitists.

There isn't anything magic about 140 haste that was just thrown out a a good balance between mana useage and dps. MAX dps looks like haste all the way at this point so I woudn't really worry about getting too much haste.

• Binkenstein · 02/13/08, 6:40 PM

$\frac{1.5L - 2C}{-6C}\ = H$ where L = Bolt damage, C = chain damage, and H = Haste%.

Fairly certain that this will indicate that a 3/1 rotation will stay viable for longer, so the current 5% haste "minimum" may increase in 2.4.

Doing a rough calc, with 1200 dmg & 40% crit, we'll need ~6.8% haste rather than the 5% in 2.3.

I've done a graph that should show the information.

The red line is non-T6 4pc in 2.3, which is about the break even point for using the 4pc bonus in 2.4.

• Binkenstein · 02/13/08, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

edited out to be a shorter post

Dropping totems & taking pots add more variables into the test. Whenever conducting a test you want to limit as many variables as possible. This is a basic principle of scientific testing. If you do use totems & pots, the differences could come down to whether you used your totems/pots in the same way.

If we perform more tests, we can see an overall trend. It could be that the tests you performed were actually outliers, which would skew the results. Using 20 tests, we could be fairly confident that 19 of them would be within 95% of the "median".

The stat weightings, either from Daidalos or myself, are looking at the DPS increase on a specific spell. Practical DPS increases will be different from these, but take alot of extra variables into account, thus the minimum haste graph in my previous post.

I agree on the rotation statement. It is always important to consider the over-all damage increase if you decrease your DPS. Sounds silly, but it can be quite practical (LB spam on Kaz'rogal is a good example).

Also, with the later versions of my spreadsheet, I added the option to completely switch off mana calculations, so you can choose which way you view things.

At the moment, I'm happy with how the crit manaback calcs work, as more crit will have an impact on your MPS use, but as with the above point, you can switch it off if you like.

Bouchkevka · 02/13/08, 7:07 PM

The 140 haste rating number I threw out before was the point at which your mana cost for a 4:1 rotation is the same as a 3:1 rotation. This is only relevant if you are using a LB/CL rotation. As Everwatch posted above mana can be an issue in many fights and a CL rotation will not work.

About the sweet spot, Daidalos was right, there is none, I took Blinks Damage vs Haste chart literally and did my own graph. It actually shows a positive curve in DPS from haste. The reason it is not linear is because the dead time of CL goes down as your haste goes up. With a haste of 30 there is a 1.85sec LB cast time. 4 bolts takes 7.85 seconds and the cool down on CL is 6 seconds. 1.85sec of LB is lost. At 200 haste the LB cast time is 1.75sec and 4 takes 7 sec. There is only 1 sec of dead time now in the CL cool down. Thus you don’t just get the gains of more casts, you get more CL too.

I also looked at Dadalos mana numbers and they were a little off. They also only compared 4:1 to LB spam. I was comparing 3:1 to 4:1 rotations to show that some haste will actually increase mana efficiency while getting the CL DPS gain.

The below assumes 40% crit, 1200 spell damage, 110 haste. 71% mana efficiency from clear casting.

Rotation Mana Cost MP/sec MP/5 DPS
3LB:1CL (No Haste) 1060.74 141.43 707.16 1073.75
4LB:1CL 1252.44 141.57 707.84 1129.66
LB Spam (No Haste) 575.10 95.85 479.25 965.00
LB Spam 575.10 102.93 514.63 1036.24

Thus 110 haste is the 3:1 to 4:1 mana break even point.

everwatch · 02/14/08, 3:55 AM

Didn't get a chance to read posts. Going to bed, I am beat. WWS from tonight's raid. The overall raid performance was not at the normal level for everyone. I think some peeps are burnt out and just wanna do something new, so they were not "all there". They were just on cruise control not giving it their all. Darip usually leads the pack by a massive margin.

Notes:
Bloodboil I had no SP and I swapped in a Prism of Inner Calm
All Raid I did have a SP
There was an Enhancement Shaman in the raid
I used 4 haste pieces for 1.85 second cast LB's
My armor should have accurate gear

Haste gear Naj to BB
For some reason WWS is not responding well, at least atm. It took 14 tries for my GM to upload it. And took forever for me to view it after.
One of the Essences did not track for some reason, and I blew myself up for about 9k damage reflected on a LB, OL, CL triple crit. Sigh. I never went OOM, though I had mana difficulties (ie pots were needed) at BB with no SP. BB I dropped below 1500dps, but I had some threat issues there and had to hold back.

Degruune · 02/14/08, 4:44 AM

Of course I will pick up the engineer goggle pattern the moment it drops, it's quite the improvement to my current helmet (engineer T1, since I haven't gotten my hands on T6 just yet). Until Cowl, I reckon it will be by far the best available helm for an elemental shaman.

About rings, shield, trinket, all that stuff, yeah, I'm expecting to see some nice new items as well that have not been made public just yet (or not "discovered" yet) so that might change the stats around a bit, but I do think that, for the slots I linked, those items will be the top end items for those slots (depending on what stats you want).
They give a solid amount of damage, crit, and haste while leaving the option to improve whatever stat you want by gemming differently (I just considered taking every set bonus for my calculation).

whave · 02/14/08, 5:03 AM

Something's not clear from the patchnotes:

Item Cast Spells: Many spells cast by items were being cast as if the caster were the same level as the item. Most of those will now cast at the player's level, giving them a reasonable chance to miss, be dispelled, or be resisted.

This means, TLC will act as a level70 caster instead of a level115 one, generating more resists, or I'm completely misunderstanding the above?

Degruune · 02/14/08, 5:39 AM

Originally Posted by whave

This means, TLC will act as a level70 caster instead of a level115 one, generating more resists, or I'm completely misunderstanding the above?

That's what I would expect as well, however, if trinkets like that take your gear set into account, it will still act as if you fire a lightning bolt yourself with hit rating etc...
So, IF those trinkets get dropped to level 70 equivalent casts, yet take your hit % into account, you won't really see a substantial increase in resists I would think.

whave · 02/14/08, 5:44 AM

As LB-specific talents do not apply to TLC charges (only the raw character-sheet data), I'm wondering if spell hit talents will be there.

Degruune · 02/14/08, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

I noticed you included the gloves (resto) instead of the gauntlets.

So our end game gear is looking something like the following: Lets try to nail now the optimal end game full set then if there is any debate we can do some additional TC looking at it so far we got something like.

[Cowl of Gul'dan]
[Pendant of Sunfire]
[Skyshatter Mantle]
[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
[Garments of Crashing Shores]
[Skyshatter Bands]
[Skyshatter Gauntlets]
[Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm]
[Skyshatter Treads]

Haven't found a good belt and WOWDB stopped responding for some reason. What are other people looking at for the ideal set.

Just to make it non-profession specific, it might have not been a good idea of me to include the JC necklace, seeing that one is BoP for the JC himself (sadly

)
I think that the necklace from Kael'thas (raid) will sill be one of the best (if not still the best) necklace for us until something else might drop that's not known at this point.

• Binkenstein · 02/14/08, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by whave

As LB-specific talents do not apply to TLC charges (only the raw character-sheet data), I'm wondering if spell hit talents will be there.

That is definitely an interesting question. Might hunt around and see what information I can dredge up.

Kasi · 02/14/08, 2:38 PM

Since TLC's lightning bolt shows up the same as our lightning bolt, I don't know if it would be possible to differentiate the two in the combat log. No way to tell if a resist was a regular one or a TLC one.

Degruune · 02/14/08, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Since TLC's lightning bolt shows up the same as our lightning bolt, I don't know if it would be possible to differentiate the two in the combat log. No way to tell if a resist was a regular one or a TLC one.

I think one way to spot it will be the damage it does, so, when it gets resisted completely, no, you won't be able to see it, but on partial resists you should be able to spot what is your normal LB and what is the TLC LB...

Daidalos · 02/14/08, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Degruune

I think one way to spot it will be the damage it does, so, when it gets resisted completely, no, you won't be able to see it, but on partial resists you should be able to spot what is your normal LB and what is the TLC LB...

Well you could CL targets and then calc the resist rate on the LBs however 1 cast per 6 s is gonna take awhile before enough data is gathered but this would be the simplest.

I don't think partial resist rates are going to make for an easy comparison.

• Binkenstein · 02/14/08, 8:09 PM

With a 1% miss chance, and a 3% mitigation, we'd be looking at a 3.97% "nerf" to TLC, roughly.

Moshne · 02/15/08, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

With a 1% miss chance, and a 3% mitigation, we'd be looking at a 3.97% "nerf" to TLC, roughly.

This assumes it doesn't already have a 1% miss chance, which I am reasonably certain it does, (even based on lvl 115, same way we get 1% miss on level 1 critters.) We might get added mitigation, but it seems like the "nerf" would be pretty insignificant.

whave · 02/15/08, 4:51 AM

From 2.4, combat log will be redesigned, so addons and maybe even the normal combat log will be able to distinguish LB from TLC-LB.