The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 40

Wodi · 02/15/08, 10:55 AM

As far as haste vs 3/1, 4/1, LB spam. I found in raid I do alot more dps doing straight LB spam. Every time I try to do a LB/CL rotation my DPS drops. It might be my gear setup. I have set up my gear to make my LBs faster and crit more, this might be a factor in why my DPS drops when I rotate in CL. I rotate CL every time its up with out stopping or waiting during or after LB. Basically if its up during a LB cast I CL next, and if CL is not going to be up when I finish a LB then I cast another LB before CL so I am always casting. Becuase of Latancy spikes Relic procs CL does not always fall in line with rotaion so I just try to always be casting.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Phanez · 02/15/08, 5:29 PM

So, what kind of gems for each color should i focus on, if i either want, or NOT want set bonuses? Thanks.

Kasi · 02/15/08, 5:31 PM

Pure damage for red, dmg/crit for yellow and sta/dmg for blue. I'd go for socket bonuses that are + dmg, I'd stay away from any bonus with hit or mp5, and for spell crit I'd say it depends on the color.

Daidalos · 02/15/08, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Pure damage for red, dmg/crit for yellow and sta/dmg for blue. I'd go for socket bonuses that are + dmg, I'd stay away from any bonus with hit or mp5, and for spell crit I'd say it depends on the color.

It should be noted that haste gems will change this. Haste gems are yellow (8 spell haste) and are much better than crit gems. Too bad they aren't blue... Really if you don't know which gem is best go look at the stat wieghts in the beginning of the thread and add up each gem and compare.

Kasi · 02/15/08, 6:11 PM

Well iirc there will be a haste/sta gem.

Daidalos · 02/15/08, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Well iirc there will be a haste/sta gem.

yes iirc
8 haste - yellow
4 haste 5 spell dmg - yellow / red
4 haste / 6 stam - yellow blue

Binkenstein · 02/15/08, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Wodi

As far as haste vs 3/1, 4/1, LB spam. I found in raid I do alot more dps doing straight LB spam. Every time I try to do a LB/CL rotation my DPS drops.

I think it's something do to with how the "spell queue" works, and how well you time your CL cast.

Daidalos · 02/15/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I think it's something do to with how the "spell queue" works, and how well you time your CL cast.

Has anyone else had the same experiences and have some wws parses we can look at? I'm curious if everyone is getting the same results. This certainly goes against current TC.

everwatch · 02/15/08, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Has anyone else had the same experiences and have some wws parses we can look at? I'm curious if everyone is getting the same results. This certainly goes against current TC.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the spell queue issue. I run with 1.85 cast LB's and 1.39 CL. I find that working in CL does increase my DPS (whether it's supposed to or not due to GCD). I've even noticed that when I'm spamming buttons - if I actually try to swap up on spells too late, but before the current spell finished casting, it'll still cast the spell I was spamming a fraction of a second before (ie was spamming LB, but swapped to CL and LB still went off anyways next time).

BTW - which line means what on that graph? I'm partially color blind and can't tell which is which. >.<

Graze · 02/18/08, 6:14 AM

Hello, I'm Graze from Frostmane-EU (Electra on EU PTR-PvE)
Sorry for joining the discussion so late on. Been reading this thread since it started and first off thanks Bink for a great spreadsheat.

I'd like to add that the Skyshatter belt was changed with the latest PTR build.
It's now critt and hit rating instead of mp5.
As seen on the picture I uploaded here:

pici.se - New Skyshatter Belt

I havn't seen this information anywhere else so I thought I'd tell you here.

Edit:
I'm not sure what T6 to use/keep for the sake of the setbonus except for the bracers since all the random epics are just so great. Also I think it's a little sad it's still hit rating on the new gear peices, I'd appriciate haste (on belt) or critt (boots) alot more. I don't want to dump too much critt in favor for pure haste because of our dependancy on it for mana.

Wodi · 02/18/08, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I think it's something do to with how the "spell queue" works, and how well you time your CL cast.

Usually during a LB cast when CL finishes its 6 sec cool down I spam CL intill I see it start casting then go back to LB. The 3/1 and 4/1 does increase alittle on non CC trash pulls becuase of jumps, but like on single target and CC packs, My LB spam DPS is alot higher. Not sure if the cast queue is effecting it or not. I am trying the CL/LB rotation more since where in MH and all the trash pulls are CL friendly.

P.S. I do understand that in theory CL hits harder and has a shorter cast time witch increases it DPS in the CL/LB rotation. Also that a LB cast time would have to be close to 1.5s to match it till 2.4.

Daidalos · 02/18/08, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Graze

Hello, I'm Graze from Frostmane-EU (Electra on EU PTR-PvE)
Sorry for joining the discussion so late on. Been reading this thread since it started and first off thanks Bink for a great spreadsheat.

I'd like to add that the Skyshatter belt was changed with the latest PTR build.
It's now critt and hit rating instead of mp5.
As seen on the picture I uploaded here:

pici.se - New Skyshatter Belt

I havn't seen this information anywhere else so I thought I'd tell you here.

Edit:
I'm not sure what T6 to use/keep for the sake of the setbonus except for the bracers since all the random epics are just so great. Also I think it's a little sad it's still hit rating on the new gear peices, I'd appriciate haste (on belt) or critt (boots) alot more. I don't want to dump too much critt in favor for pure haste because of our dependancy on it for mana.

Good find Graze. Thanks! I'd prefer that hit turn into haste as well with our new t6 items mostly being well itemized I doubt there will be 4 off set pcs that can make up for the 2 pc and 4pc bonuses.

Zhuljo · 02/18/08, 1:34 PM

Hi,

I carefully read through this thread (yet not all the 40 pages of postings). These contributions are very useful and very informative.

However, I have some concerns about spell penetration. To my opinion spell penetration should not be ignored just because there has not yet been any research on it.

Just to quote :

Spell Penetration

Reduces target resistance to your spells.
Spell Penetration is an odd subject. There's not much evidence on how it works, and is mostly conjecture. A fair amount of caster DPS theorycraft comes from Mages & Warlocks. Due to how Curse of Elements/Shadows works, it reduces the resistances of the target by 88 for Frost & Fire, or Shadow. This means that the use of Penetration in PvE has not been tested to any great extent. The only case where either of these casters will use it is on Supremus, who has a high base fire resistance.
As yet, the only raid mobs that have nature resistance are the Tainted Elementals on Vashj. The nature immunity on Hydros is not affected by penetration.
Even though it is not a stat you should gear for, taking the 20 spell pen cloak enchant may be useful.

As already rightfully mentioned, most experience is based on warlocks and mages. As most warlocks use CoS and CoE during the raid, most magical schools have their resistances reduced: fire, frost, arcane, shadow.

spell penetration is useful if the opponent has some magical resistance. I made the experience that all mobs have some resistance to all schools of magic depending on the level difference. For example, start a new character, such as a mage or a warlock, whatever, as long as it is a caster. in the low-level area you will find almost stats such as spelldmg, spell penetration or anything else affecting your performance. If you (level4) engage an enemy (level 7 or 8) that is a few levels higher than you are, you will experience two major problems:

1) you have lots of complete resistances due to missing hit equipment
2) you have lots of partial resistances (--> resistance due to magical school resistance?)

However, if you fight again against the same enemy, but having a higher level than the creature (your level 11 or 12, creature's level 7-8), you will realise that:

there are far less complete resists
there are far less partial resists (--> less magical school resistance?)

The only two factors that should have changed is the level difference between you and your opponent. Therefore, my conclusion is the opponent's resistance to (all) magical schools is affected by the level difference. Consequently, every boss has some kind of magical resistance has he is always 3 levels higher than you are.

Applied to practise, I realised that with more spell penetration the boss shows less partial resistances resulting in more overall damage. Hence, my questions are:

where is the max spell penetration cap?
how does it scale in comparison with spell damage and spell haste?

I have currently 55 spell penetration and still I realise some partial resistances. I assume that the spell penetration cap is somewhere around 88-108 as the warlock's spell would make no sense for mages/warlocks/shadow priests otherwise.

Have others made similar conclusions? Or is spell penetration a complete waste on stats?

I know my whole theory contradicts the observations made in Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3, yet I realised, that with more spell penetration I have less partial resists during a boss fight. This is the only way I could explain it...

Kasi · 02/18/08, 2:19 PM

There are fights with higher resistances (I think council is one) but they are few and far between, especially in relation to nature damage. I'd just stick it on your cloak for the enchant there and leave it at that. If there were more fights that had resistances that could be penetrated, it might be useful. But most bosses seem to just have innate level based nature resist, which can't be penetrated. Hence no use stacking it.

As far as I can tell for T6 it looks like this.

Council: Pen helps
Rage + Supremus : both seem to have high resists to frost. Actually Supremus might be to fire, not sure. Rage definitely has some frost resist going.

Can't really notice anything on anyone else.

Zhuljo · 02/18/08, 2:31 PM

Yes, that what i realised are doing many elementals. Do you have many partial resists? or almost none with your few spell penetration?

Daidalos · 02/18/08, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

There are fights with higher resistances (I think council is one) but they are few and far between, especially in relation to nature damage. I'd just stick it on your cloak for the enchant there and leave it at that. If there were more fights that had resistances that could be penetrated, it might be useful. But most bosses seem to just have innate level based nature resist, which can't be penetrated. Hence no use stacking it.

As far as I can tell for T6 it looks like this.

Council: Pen helps
Rage + Supremus : both seem to have high resists to frost. Actually Supremus might be to fire, not sure. Rage definitely has some frost resist going.

Can't really notice anything on anyone else.

Council has buff they can be cast to increase thier resistance. I am not sure if they have a higher base resistance. Never seemed like it to me but I could be wrong.

Rage has high frost resistance.

Sumpremus has high fire Resistance.

You can find more info by searching through the mage thread about I think their respective resistances are 150ish for frost and fire.

There has been no evidence that spell penetration benefits a raider in any measureable way (outside of the noted bosses with resistances). This applies to ele shaman as well. There was some speculation that without the benefit of CoE we might benefit but there have been a few who have tried tracking spell pen and comparing WWS with and without and we there was no noticeable difference.

If anyone has information to contrary I would certainly welcome it but at this point I'd say get spell pen on pvp gear or maybe get an item or two and only wear when a boss with high nature resist is indentified.

Kasi · 02/18/08, 2:59 PM

Yeah which is why I say put it on cloak and then leave it at that. No need for any more. I do get partial resists though, but I can't think of any fight I get it on more than others. I'll try to keep track of it this week though.

Oh also did pretty well on some fights last week. Got a new high on Teron at 1650 dps on a 1% wipe (grr stupid constructs). I just want to make sure that I'm ready for Brutallus when he comes out.

Binkenstein · 02/18/08, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Good find Graze. Thanks! I'd prefer that hit turn into haste as well with our new t6 items mostly being well itemized I doubt there will be 4 off set pcs that can make up for the 2 pc and 4pc bonuses.

Interesting. The belt was the one I was going to skip on, but I shall have to update the sheets again (mind you, I should just wait for a final 2.4 build then update everything >.<).
Oddly enough, I'm also finding myself running close to the hit cap (I'm ~1% over it at the moment!)

Originally Posted by Kasi

There are fights with higher resistances (I think council is one) but they are few and far between, especially in relation to nature damage. I'd just stick it on your cloak for the enchant there and leave it at that. If there were more fights that had resistances that could be penetrated, it might be useful. But most bosses seem to just have innate level based nature resist, which can't be penetrated. Hence no use stacking it.

As far as I can tell for T6 it looks like this.

Council: Pen helps
Rage + Supremus : both seem to have high resists to frost. Actually Supremus might be to fire, not sure. Rage definitely has some frost resist going.

Can't really notice anything on anyone else.

Rage = Frost
Supremus = Fire

The only situation where spell pen can be useful for us are the tainteds on Vashj. I ran a week with 50 spell pen, and did not see any noticeable difference with my "mitigation" on WWS. Also, by using the formulae from WoWWiki, I found that the expected mitigation from boss level resistances is 3%, which is what I'm getting.
I will most likely go for a subtlety enchant on my next cloak because I think it will affect my dps more.

Daidalos · 02/18/08, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Yeah which is why I say put it on cloak and then leave it at that. No need for any more. I do get partial resists though, but I can't think of any fight I get it on more than others. I'll try to keep track of it this week though.

Oh also did pretty well on some fights last week. Got a new high on Teron at 1650 dps on a 1% wipe (grr stupid constructs). I just want to make sure that I'm ready for Brutallus when he comes out.

Right you will get partial resists due to level differences on non-binary spells, but my understanding is that there is nothing that can mitigate those resists.

Binkenstein · 02/19/08, 5:22 AM

Question: Who would be interested in taking over ShamStats (an elemental version anyway, the restos seem keen on the idea of a separate version for themselves)

Pherox · 02/19/08, 7:49 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Question: Who would be interested in taking over ShamStats (an elemental version anyway, the restos seem keen on the idea of a separate version for themselves)

Personally, so far I've liked it tons and think it's a job well done. Any reason you're not gonna continue? =(

The new badge rewards are interesting I'd think but the lack of crit is what confuzzles me. Haste is great and all but, leaving out crit I'd think is a bad thing however. The sunwell items are amazing though, as far as I've looked at them.
I'd very much like to see them implemented in ShamStats, no pressure though!

I'd like to see how they stack up against other items for my PvE set.

Of course, we don't know when or if they're implementing more class changes wich could change the value of items further, as well as itemstats possibly changing, so I see your point in waiting still.

Hardbody · 02/19/08, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Interesting. The belt was the one I was going to skip on, but I shall have to update the sheets again (mind you, I should just wait for a final 2.4 build then update everything >.<).
Oddly enough, I'm also finding myself running close to the hit cap (I'm ~1% over it at the moment!)

Rage = Frost
Supremus = Fire

The only situation where spell pen can be useful for us are the tainteds on Vashj. I ran a week with 50 spell pen, and did not see any noticeable difference with my "mitigation" on WWS. Also, by using the formulae from WoWWiki, I found that the expected mitigation from boss level resistances is 3%, which is what I'm getting.
I will most likely go for a subtlety enchant on my next cloak because I think it will affect my dps more.

I actually embraced the extra hit, and went for a build that dumps nature's guidance and gives me 4/5 healing focus while still maintaining hit cap. I have been using this build for a long time now and to be honest it increased my versatility two-fold. It is definitely something you should take into consideration.

Wodi · 02/19/08, 9:45 AM

I think the elemental and resto ShamStats should stay together or atleast have the same gear list, becuase there are some gear or gems that you can interchanged specially when your in a fight that you have to off heal in phases.

Daidalos · 02/19/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Pherox

Personally, so far I've liked it tons and think it's a job well done. Any reason you're not gonna continue? =(

The new badge rewards are interesting I'd think but the lack of crit is what confuzzles me. Haste is great and all but, leaving out crit I'd think is a bad thing however. The sunwell items are amazing though, as far as I've looked at them.
I'd very much like to see them implemented in ShamStats, no pressure though!

I'd like to see how they stack up against other items for my PvE set.

Of course, we don't know when or if they're implementing more class changes wich could change the value of items further, as well as itemstats possibly changing, so I see your point in waiting still.

The lack of crit is bad if you need the mana. There is no reason to stack tons of crit on our items for dps. Haste will be more effective per percent and way more effective per rating then crit so I welcome it. For those of your without a spriest and /or a pally keeping JoW up through stacking crit will still be necessary.

Binkenstein · 02/19/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Pherox

Personally, so far I've liked it tons and think it's a job well done. Any reason you're not gonna continue? =(

The new badge rewards are interesting I'd think but the lack of crit is what confuzzles me. Haste is great and all but, leaving out crit I'd think is a bad thing however. The sunwell items are amazing though, as far as I've looked at them.
I'd very much like to see them implemented in ShamStats, no pressure though!

I'd like to see how they stack up against other items for my PvE set.

Of course, we don't know when or if they're implementing more class changes wich could change the value of items further, as well as itemstats possibly changing, so I see your point in waiting still.

It's a time thing mostly. I've got two Wiki entries I'd like to finish off (I've ported the first couple of sections from the Elemental entry to the first posts in this thread), work is busier/more stressful, and I tend to do little TC at home as I've either got RL stuff to do, or games to play.

Plus it was never intended to get this far/massive

Originally Posted by Hardbody

I actually embraced the extra hit, and went for a build that dumps nature's guidance and gives me 4/5 healing focus while still maintaining hit cap. I have been using this build for a long time now and to be honest it increased my versatility two-fold. It is definitely something you should take into consideration.

Yeah, that's one of the things I'd considered too. Except I may have to resort to my old [Belt of Blasting] if I get the T6 helm before the shoulders, as I've ended up with very little hit, most of which is sitting on my T5 helm.

That, and I haven't respec'd in ages, and don't plan on doing it often, so I don't get much of a chance to swap the points out.

Might go update that talent info though.