Croaker

So... yeah. My raid runs 2 hunters and they've both recently switched to Wind Serpent pets. They macro in their pet's Lightning Breath ability with Steady Shot and now I can honestly say I hardly ever see any benefit from Stormstrike procs. Our enhancement shaman had stopped using ES so I could make use of it, but now I guess it's sort of a moot point. Anyone have any ideas besides trying to talk the hunters into finding a new pet?

 

SilentMunkey

Question?

I have been an Elemental Shaman since level 10. I respec'd to resto for 3 weeks but my guild wanted me to switch back....a wonderful day. Anyway back to the question. In a 5-man I can do about 30-40% of the DPS. 10 Man it is about 20-25% and then in 25-man my damage sinks. I understand the fact that there are more people and all but those same top DPS in a 25-man I can usually spank in a 5 or 10-man.

On long fights I see that I run low on mana...not out usually but low. So I use a lot of comsumables to counteract this... Most figths end with 15%ish mana. But why is it that in long fights I end up at 6% whne the top DPS is like 9 or 10? I use the 3:1 unless heroism is on then it is 4:1 and I don't run out of mana. The defering damage between a 5-man and a 25-man is irritating.

Just wondering...

 

whave

You don't have too much crit, yet you did not even maximise Tidal Mastery, while you 'wasted' (from PvE perspective) a point on Eye of the Storm, and well, personally I would go for only 2/5 Unrelenting Storm. With solid LB spam (and some more gear with critrating), you will benefit more mana from clearcasting than from that talent.

 

Benjaimn

You need to change all your gems to +9 spell dmg or dmg/crit ones besides two stamina/dmg gems (so your meta will work) then change your meta to +12 spell crit rating and +3% critical dmg. As said before change your spec to 41/0/20 your spec is inefficient for raid dps.

Also you have too much hit, get a new necklace and new boots. The vindicators pvp neck is good if you put a +9 spell dmg gem in it. You could benefit from a lot of the badge gear, I would get the boots as soon as possible then the gloves next. For your offhand you could get the badge shield or the fetish of the primal gods, I would only get this if you have access to other haste items from ZA.

Go Dargonblight Elemental Shaman Feel free to whisper me in game if you have more questions.

 

Moshne

I used the same spec you are using for a while, thinking the extra mana/5 was worth more than the crit, its really not. Going to the flat 41/0/20 build helped me immensely. There are some really nice badge rewards to patch up your gear ( you have a healing shield equipped in the armory, I assume thats a mistake?)

 

Daidalos

I've been doing some messing around with this. Under completely ideal situations for flame shock and non-optimal for LB/CL it is the highest dps cycle but there are situations where this is not the case.

There are a few things to remember.

First you will have a relic for LB haste or LB+CL spell dmg equipped. Since FS is an instant you cannot cast then switch relics and gain any benefit.

You have to assume both CoE and fire vuln debuffs.

You have to not assume storm strike debuff and 4pc t6 bonus.

Basically in my testing I used:

3% increase in nature dmg from Storm Strike (this will depend on the number of enh shamans and other sources of nature dmg)
1401 spell dmg for flame shock
CoE and 5 stack of fire vuln
vs
1486 dmg for LB (teron relic)
4pc t6 bonus


LB is higher dps.

This is about the crossover point where Lb starts doing more dmg however it will also depend on the amount of benefit you get from storm strike.


Comparing without debuffs and 4pc t6 LB is always higher dps than FS. So a shaman in a raid with fire mages and CoE with no enh sham FS will be higher, but I feel this is really stacking the raid in favor of fire when this will depend on your raid make up and is not gaurenteed one way or the other.

For example FS will always be lower dps in my guild. Until recently we didn't even have fire mages and we almost never have CoE (CoW and CoS are the first ones up) up however we do have 2 enh shaman in every raid. Maybe we can make some guidlines on when FS is better and when it isn't. I know its alot of variables but blanket statements can be misleading to those who don't know better as well.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Nacht

@SilentMunkey

I'm going to assume your damage doesn't actually "sink" in a 25-man environment, it just doesn't jump as much as the other damage dealers do. Let's say you had talent points allocated properly (which you don't) and you had better gear (comes with time and badges).

An elemental shaman just does not scale as well in a 25-man raid as other damage dealers do.

No benefit from the somewhat class limited buffs such as CoE/CoS, shadow weaving, improved shadow bolt, improved scorch, might/battle shout/expose weakness or the various armor reducing abilities of other classes. Those all buff certain damage dealing classes, but not all, and certainly not elemental shaman. Every single other damage dealer benefits from the numerous buffs that come with a 25-man. Moonkin sort of in the same boat (who happen to provide one of the best buffs for us) but I almost never see those raiding.

The BM Hunter buff benefits you just as much as it does any other damage dealer, and so has no specific synergy. Stormstrike is sweet if you raid with an enhancement shaman and is the only buff that uniquely benefits elemental shaman, but then you run into issues like Croaker is having. Or maybe you run with a Moonkin and they eat some of the stormstrikes too.

The single best dps buff for an elemental shaman? Blessing of Salvation. I know if I don't have it then I'm threat capped no matter what other buffs I have. Best overall damage buff is vampiric touch, but only if you'd go OOM without it.

Your own buffs are bringing other casters up, while you remain stagnant. I typically see nearly identical dps numbers whether I'm running a 5-man or a 25-man.

Just be thankful for ZA and the badge loot that has filled the itemization gap at tier 4 and 5. You can stock up on that gear, along with arena/PvP gear, and easily be doing over 1000 dps the first time you enter SSC or TK. Assuming you fix your spec that is.

 

Milk

To be simply put. Other DPS classes = synergy. Elemental shaman = consistant DPS regardless of any other players (Stormstrike being an exception).

You are there to buff the 4 others in your party, and maintain enough DPS to make them not want to replace you with another pure DPS. That said, Elemental Shaman for the moment make up for lack of synergy with, in my opinion, the best scaling talent/skill set to the current itemization. Spell haste benefits Elemental shaman on every single cast they make, unlike for example, any DOT class. Stack Spell haste with TLC and LO procs and we have our own synergy. Ive noticed that in all high end raiding guilds, Elemental shaman have crept up the WWS reports leaving others behind as everyone's gear improves. We are heavily gear dependent, and less "makeup" dependent. This is a good thing, gear always gets better, but raid makeups don't.

This also means that in smaller 5mans or even when solo, your DPS potential smashes other pure dps classes.

Gear/Spec wise... At lower gear levels, Shadow Priests are almost essential to an Elemental Shaman, as gear improves you end up having greater mana sustainability than Mages. If you don't have mana troubles replace the Meta with the Chatic Sky Fire diamond (3% bonus to crit dmg). Most of your gems are weird... stick to 9dmg for red, dmg/crit for yellow and dmg/stam for blue (minimize blue use to get meta to work). In the patch haste gems may supplant all my yellow sockets, however this will hurt your mana sustainability by quite alot. Spec wise, if you really need 5pt unrelenting storm for the Mp5, drop 2 out of storm reach, not out of Tidal mastery. And for the love of god atleast take 1 pt out of Totemic Focus and put it up into Tidal.

 

Milk

I experience the opposite, I see jumps in DPS when I do use CL.

CL does not hit harder for everyone. Once you get 4pc T6 and enough spell dmg, Lbolts hit and crit harder than CL. Even so, the DPS on CL is higher because it has a shorter cast and higher tooltip dmg, this will never change, barring some insane Lbolt specific bonus in the future. The global conflict is what makes weaving CL into Lbolt spam a question at all. In the patch this will no longer be the case and no one will dispute that even with excessive spell haste, casting CL whenever possible will maximize DPS. Currently, unless your cast time on CL is sub 1.4 I think it is still worthwhile to cast Clight on single mobs. Reasoning is 2fold: First is latency dependent, but for me even a 1.4sec CL (0.1sec under global) ends up meaning less than 0.02sec downtime, I cant even see a moment that I'm not still casting. Second, using CL will always give a shaman more spell casts in a given time period unless they have so much haste that their Lbolts are a 1.5sec cast (BloodLust, Drums). More casts = more crits = more TLC procs. I did some crude math, 5min fight using Cl =~10 more casts. For the most part those extra chances to generate a TLC proc can add up given minimal downtime after casting a CL (<0.02sec). If you don't use TLC you are missing out, I would replace my Hex head with a Skull of Guldan before I replace TLC.

 

Shkarn

Has anyone been able to test this out yet? I didn't see much follow-up on this topic, but is the combat log system being changed enough to make TLC and LB separate attacks? It seems like this could be a pretty hefty nerf to TLC. Will TLC remain a "staple trinket" for us come patch time?

 

Nacht

From what I can tell in my PTR testing, LB, LO, and TLC each have a separate numerical identifier in the new combat log. They are all described in text as Lightning Bolts, but there is a number that corresponds with each spell as well. Every actual LB has the same number, every LO lightning bolt has the same number, which is different from the actual LB's number. Similarly, TLC lightning bolts have their own number, unique from both actual LB and LO numbers. Also, the CL LO number is different than actual CL number.

I'm at work right now, so I don't have the evidence to show, but I'm fairly certain about this.

 

Milk

How is there a potential to TLC being nerfed? To my knowledge in the current live build, TLC procs can't set off L.O. even though they are listed as Lightning Bolts in the combat log, the game "knows" there is a difference. L.O. crits can and do set off TLC, but not vice-versa.

 

Shkarn

From a bit earlier in the thread:

If that's the case and TLC doesn't benefit from our talents, we'd potentially see a high number of resisted TLC charges. The potential nerf wouldn't be from the number of procs, but from whether or not the TLC bolts would have a high, un-modifiable resist rate.

 

• Binkenstein

I can re-word that. It boils down to the fact that FS damage/1.5 seconds usually is greater than LB damage/2 seconds, mostly due to the dot portion. I've got a(nother) spreadsheet lying around where I did some comparisons between spells, and only until you get to high end gear/high haste values is LB higher damage on a DPS basis. I didn't look at things without standand fire debuffs, nor with T6 4pc though.

 

Daidalos

Right I'm including the initial shock (including crit) + dot portion / GCD vs LB dmg / LB cast time in my comparisons . I am also factoring in lower GCD due to haste. So a 1.7LB vs a 1.3s FS etc. I just think its unfair to always comapre FS with full fire debuffs and ignore the buffs LB can get such a SS and 4pc t6. The problem is there are a rather long list of variables.

Haste
Spell dmg
crit
Relic
Fire mage
CoE lock
Enhance Shaman(s)
4pc t6.

With a rather long list of variables if you don't cearly fall into one category it gets rather hard to word. If you don't fall into
A. We always have any CoE fire debuff and no enh sham.
FS is better.
B. We never have any fire debuff and 1 or more enh shamans
LB is better.
If you aren't one or the other the answer on which is higher dps is.. "depends".

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Hadria

Can someone give me a number how much dps an Elemental Shami with top gear (4xT6) can do on a single target?

 

Milk

The crit rate for Flame Shock is 11% (10% in patch) less than Lbolt or Chain because of talents and also can't set off Overloads. Combining those factors, the crit "rate" that is how many crits you get in a given time period by using Flame shock, would decrease as compared to using a slightly longer cast time Lbolt instead. This would greatly affect TLC procs, and also would somewhat devalue Chaotic Skyfire Diamond. Were those considerations both taken in your calculations?

The only time I have ever used Flame shock is when I am moving and not dropping totems. I used to Earthshock but realized Flame shock was far better if I had to pick one or the other. But still while standing still I can't believe that Flame Shock can compete in a cast rotation even though Fire damage receives a substantial buff in a raid setting.

 

Milk

Completely Fight and raid dependent.

I'll link a WWS report of a full BT clear. I am in a group with a Shadow priest, however at this point I don't really need the mana. I didn't elixer/pot or flask either since I am cheap and at this point they are completely unnecessary to farming BT/Hyjal. I am also saving marks of the illidari for Sunwell.

Wow Web Stats

Teron Gorefiend
- a common DPS parsing encounter without much movement, but does have spell purshback: 1714dps (1698 avg)

 

SilentMunkey

Just wanted to thank everyone for their inputs. I have adjusted a few things and will check back in in a few weeks. =)

 

Nizari

They changed the "new" tier 6 loot thank god.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...skyshatter.jpg

The belt now trumps Akama's belt and Anetherons imo, it is a decent stam hit overall, but now that they all have haste, crit and damage and even more hit... it looks like those three pieces, one out of the current 5 tier 6 pieces and the rest "tier 7"...

The question is which old piece to keep? I would say gloves, however I also have to remind myself of the Chaotic skyfire Diamond, requiring 2 blue gems... ALL the new sunwell pieces have very desirable socket bonus' and tot op it off all have desirable coloured sockets (red and yellow). The new gloves are the only one with a blue socket, I was thinking tier 6 shoulders and the "tier 7" gloves to take advantage of the sockets as well as stats... but then I hate MP/5....

It will be easy to get close to 400 haste rating with all this + JC gear and the uber dagger of wtfpwnage, making LB 1.5 second cast for a perfect 4/1 LB/CL rotation.

I j ust don't have the free time at the moment to work it out.

 

• Binkenstein

At the moment, I'm leaning towards boots/belt/bracers and using the gloves as well.

 

Nizari

Is there any knowledge of a ring with +haste AND +crit?

Until the recent development I was looking towards the BoE JC ring that is practically the BT trash ring with some +hit... but these pieces got a nice +hit boost, which will hopefully counter the loss of hit on all the tier 6 being replaced.

I got JC up to past 365 so will get the neck too. The rings and shield seem only doubt about change. Well and trinkets, not much direct damage love for casters.

 

tufy

I personally am keeping the gloves. The two blue gems will probably go to the legs, because they have two red sockets (meaning I can put in purple stam/+dmg gems and still get 4 spell crit rating).

From the "dreamlist", I'm already over the hit cap, so +hit won't really help much anymore.

I think there's a certain logic behind it. If those pieces had stamina, some classes would simply use 4 pieces of S3/S4 and 4 pieces of T6, giving them stamina, resilience AND damage in one pack. By dropping stamina, they essentially forced people into the same "offense or defense gear" decisions.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Nizari

OMG thats genius... I completely forgot that purple included red >.<.

Hmm I haven't bothered with a hit calculation, it's too early right now, but for me, the only +hit would be from the tier 6 pieces (gloves + belt + boots) and then of course talents/racials/totems.

 

Degruune

I reckon you mean you will be keeping the current T6 gloves and will be filling out the other parts with the new boots/belts/bracers ?
And then of course filling up the other parts with the Sunwell "set"?

Just to get things straight