Yes I used appropriate talents and the corresponding crit rates in the comparison (I used all 2.4 amounts and mechanics). I did not use CSD but I can throw that in to see if it makes much of a difference I doubt it will significantly sway it one way or the other. I did a fair amount of testing to ensure my spell coeffcients were correct. I'll comfirm everything is correct with cuncussion over the weekend.

I was some what surprised with the flame shock damage as well but we rarely have CoE and fire vuln both so its not really applicable to my guild.

In Patch 2.4 [The Maelstrom's Fury] will be Main Hand. Doubt there are many dual wielding this but FYI.

Aww damn, I better try out my weirdo spec soon before it goes away.

Hi Guys,

Browsing all the sites on dps optimization, I am still very puzzled about 1 thing. I did quite a bit of calculation on it and my math tells me Quagmirran's eye is the best trinket in-game. This seems a little odd, since nobody is saying this also and it's blue as well. Maybe you can crack my math and see if I went wrong somewhere. Help much appreciated:

Let's compare with Hex Shrunken head trinket, quite a good trinket as well (only Skull of Guldan better). And since GCD will be affected by haste in 2.4 anyway, let's just compare a lightning bolt spam for easy calculation.

Base stats:
spelldmg: 1500
spellcrit: 22% (35% with totem+talents)
LB base dmg: 633
LB coeff: 71.43%

DPS without any trinket:
DPS = ( (633+71.41% * 1500) * (1+35%) ) / 2s = 1150

DPS with Hex Shrunken Head:
211 dmg for 20s, with 120s CD -> additional spelldmg = 53 + 211/6 = 88.2 spelldmg
DPS = ( (633+71.41% * (1500+88.2) ) * (1+35%) ) / 2s = 1193

DPS with Quagmirran's:
320 haste -> 20.32% less casting time -> LB cast = 1.66s
duration 6s, CD 18s
proc chance 10%
After a proc, the time for a new proc is on average: 18s + 2s/10% = 38s
With a 6s duration, that means the proc is active 15.8% of the time
DPS = (1-15.8%) * ( (633+71.41% * (1500+37)) * (1+35%) ) / 2s + (15.8%) * ( (633+71.41% * (1500+37)) * (1+35%) ) / 1.66s = 1206

Skull of Guldan comes at 1199 dps. Quite a surprise I would think. Comments welcome!

Greetz
Ravhin

T6 Gloves/Belt/Bracers/Boots would be my ideals at this stage.
Gloves are less of a downgrade from the trash sunwell gloves, the others are "best in slot", although you could make an arguement for using Flashfire belt instead.

It depends on the average proc of of quag's. I've seen this come up in other thread and our mages seem to really like it but maybe if someone can post some wws with quags and we can get a in game average of average time between proc it can settle this. Quags is def a good trinket though.

awww QQ

I wanted to run around with TLC and dual wield stab the hell out of people with flame tongue.

Awwwwww. I set some of my best Lbolt records using this just for fun. Spec Dual Wield, equip Vindicator's mainhand, Maelstrom offhand, Oil both. Spell dmg food, Flask of Blinding Light. Then respec. Put points into your normal PvE elemental max DPS talents but do NOT zone. As long as you do not log off / zone you maintain both weapons in your hands, and while you cant attack with the offhand, the stats still work. Hit over 1900dmg to Lbolts doing this and set some DPS records on a Guildmate of mine outside Org. Fun stuff, too bad I can't do it anymore.

I ran with this spec in BT. Enh/Elemental hybrid with dual Flametongue.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Use Stormstrike then Chainlightning + ES right after, and use both every cooldown. Keep STR totem down for extra spell dmg and Searing does around 400+ a hit. You have a ton of spell damage dualwielding Vindicator+Maelstrom in this setup, and I wore 2 of my best Enhance pieces to gain enough hit (+30% atk power to dmg). Tons of flametongue crits proc TLC fairly often. This is the only spec in the game that could potentially use Elemental Devestation, and even though I managed to out DPS a bunch of people on trash due to CL critting for 5000+, on Teron I came in just barely above our tank after adding in Searing totem damage. Dueled another Ele shaman like this and he never got a single spell off due to all the pushback, Flametongue eating grounding and low CD interrupts. What is Elemental Devestation even intended to be used for?

*end random tangent*

ShamStats
I modified page DEP cell D36 to =((((A36*A$28)+(B36*B$28)+(C36*C$28))/SUM(A$28:C$28))*120)/(120+(1.5*Main!W37)) from =((A36*A$28)+(B36*B$28)+(C36*C$28))/SUM(A$28:C$28)

This modification takes in account for totem dropping on DPS since changing the Totem amount was not effecting any thing in the spread sheet. If this is not correct let me know and ill chang it back.

Also who is updating ShamStats now?

Yeah, I'm still a bit in doubt here about Flashfire too, the T6 belt really got better, that's a fact, but all in all the combo of belt/boots/gloves/bracers gives us our hitcap already...
And it's always that hit cap that I'm afraid of crossing since all extra it is a waste of points...

They should have removed the hit from one of the Sunwell tier items, give it an extra amount of haste/crit/dmg whatever...

I wouldn't argue atm tbh, this stuff all looks way to op, I tend to find I rise higher than any class on the meters while heroism is up at nearly 1.5s LB and this is without being able to slot in CL...

I would not be surprised if we utterly dominate for a while then get nerfed.

I keep my hit capped with out totem and usually see a less than 1% miss rate some times around .43%

Well Kasi,

the 18s CD is just based on the rule-of-thumb that CD is 3 times the duration of the buff as you already indicate. This seems to be the case for many trinkets. However, I haven't seen any data on it for Quag's so it is just an assumption. The other 20s is from the 10% chance on hit (with 2s LB this takes on average 20s), which is the accepted procrate.
If your test is closer to the truth and the CD is let's say 45s for an average proc every 65s, then dps would end up at 1190 which still makes this the 3rd best trinket in-game in close competition with the crusader card.

Of course, doing a CL:LB rotation on multiple targets make it proc more often, but well...

Thanks, and if anyone else knows a better number for the internal CD, let me know!

Gr
Ravhin

Not bashing, and I understand the usefulness of Theory Craft and do not want to dissuade anyone from trying new things and posting their results. I embrace new ideas so please don't think I'm trying to smash down any effort put forth on this thread.

Ive always ascribed to in-game testing over TC for items such as this (Quag's Eye), and an actual boss encounter is best. There is a DPS value factor that I don't think anyone has nor can take into account with Quag's eye when comparing it to say, Hex head or Skull of Guldan. When the trinket procs can make the difference between a "eh" dps increase and a "holy sht" dps increase. In most encounters I pop Drums of Battle at ~90% with Hex head, as soon as this CD is over and everyone is situated, I pop Bloodlust, when Lust ends Drums and the Trinket are back up, and I pop both again. I don't stack drums with lust because this pushes Lbolts are under 1.4seconds and I hit global, and I don't save Hex head for Lust because then I can only use it once. Controlling when a trinket procs and optimizing its bonus every time during a fight is better than any random trinket procing fruitlessly off a shock while moving, in the case of Quags eye, as soon as I pop Bloodlust, pushing my Lbolts under 1.3sec, wasting the proc. In spam tests on Dr. Boom or any Simulation, sure Quags comes out ahead of alot of epic trinkets, but in reality in actual ingame encounters that require far more than stationary spam then these conclusions have little merit.

Once patch rolls around and we can push under Global then things will get shifted around a bit, but I still think a similar reasoning can be applied that control over when the trinket procs can't be overlooked when considering it's value.

Yeah I don't like trinkets with such short procs. You never know if it will come up when I'm moving, or dropping totems, or during a period where I have to avoid damage or can't do damage (like Naj's shield) I do like stacking my stuff like Milkk says. I use drums of battle on cooldown, and time Hex with that. I also use drums with heroism, but the drums I use for the moment with heroism is drums of war, not battle.

Looks about right. I hadn't thought about that.

At the moment I have another version that I could upload, but aside from a few 2.4 items there aren't really any changes in it. I'm not updating it much at the moment, and no one has taken up the "do you want to take over?" offer from earlier.
I don't know if anyone has tested it properly yet, but that 18 second assumption may be a bit off due to the amount of haste on the proc. 33 seconds is what's been suggested on the item page for wowhead.

I'm just curious at what point in +haste is chain lightning getting below 1 second? I'm looking at getting between 400 and 500, with heroism and other such procs (skycall totem, Quags eye), It could be likely Chain Lightning will get pushed under the GCD again >.<

I still don't think quags will be that good, although I have no evidence for this... It just doesn't feel like it will be better than The Lightning Capacitor and Sextant.

1.5 second lightning bolts is obviously 25% more dps, and also fits too well into a 4 lightning bolt 1 chain lightning rotation.

I don't know about you, but when I push heroism(blood lust), unless it's in the last 20% for mages Molten Fury, I always climb faster up the DPS meter compared to other casters in my group.

And now that all this haste gear has so much +spell crit and decent +spell damage... I am guessing we will be doing a lot more DPS compared to other caster than we are now.

Looking at the TC numbers we should be 2k dps range with sunwell gear. Other casters are there now. Locks are already getting 2.5k dps.. we may climb a little but I'm not expecting anything drastic.

Uhh yeah, we really don't get more on heroism than other casters either. Lets compare us to a fire mage, disregarding molten fury range even. We can turn a 2 second spell into a 1.5 second spell. They can turn a 3 second spell into close to a 2 second spell. While in a perfect world heroism would be independant of cast time, due to things like latency and such I don't find that to be a case, even with the new system.

I agree with you that we should see a decent increase from these changes, but I wouldn't be too worried about them coming down on us with the nerf bat. Compared to other utility classes, we bring very little to our groups in terms of dps increase that other shaman couldn't do. Our Wrath of Air isn't unique to being Elemental, and in T6 content, most people are hit capped, so we are only bringing 3% crit, with no boss debuffs.

I suppose the point here is that we SHOULD be doing competitive damage at or near the top of the damage meters, if anything we might be a tad behind where we should be in terms of damage granted/done compared to pure classes.

I welcome the haste change, and I think we are selling it incredibly short by saying it only applies to Chain Lightning. It is also reducing the GCD on totem dropping, water shield refreshes, LHW (which we do have to cast from time to time,) while the changes aren't earth shattering, anything that allows us to spend more time dealing damage, and less time with "prep" is good to me.

As a class I think we have become accustomed to being a bit gunshy about accepting any changes to our class as positive, but this haste change seems directly aimed at helping us out. If you look at the new haste itemization, the majority of the items with spell haste on them on the new badge vendors and Sunwell drops are Mail spell damage gear. We aren't discovering anything cryptic here, Blizz wants us stacking it, and at the risk of sounding INCREDIBLY naive, they know the implications of it. In a post on the forums yesterday, they mentioned wanting to make Enh a 2v2 spec, which to me sounds like they are given up the idea of Elemental being the PVP spec (which was said months back) and accepting us an acceptable PVE spec.

Yes but faster casts have extra benefits for us that they don't have for say a fire mage. Lightning overload is technically 10% more dps, but it only goes off after a successful spell cast, so faster casts means even more lightning overloads. On top of this faster casts means more item procs, or higher chance of getting them to proc quicker after the internal cool down fades.

I use The Lightning Capacitor and Sextant, as well as being I think the only caster with the Exalted Scale of Sands ring and the Skycall totem. Haste means more lightning bolts, more crits, more TLC bolts, faster Sextant and Eternal band of the Sage proc's, more Skycall totem up time.

Most of my guilds mages use Icon/Zul Aman equivalent and either Serpent Coil Brand or some other static bonus trinket... So they don't benefit as much from the same amount of haste.



I never questioned it before, but with haste that reduces casting time by 25% lightning bolt should go to 1.5 seconds, however Heroism/Bloodlust is 30% and lightning bolt becomes 1.54? or something similar. Is it because its increased cast speed as opposed to reduced cast time? Come to think about it, in end game raiding I've been pretty slack with shaman theory crafting, after they flipped lightning overload and relentless earthstorm diamond around...