Some of this lowered proc rate can probably be attributed to the current bug that reduces your LB damage when LO procs at the same time. It's probably considering that LB a LO, which means it can't proc LO itself, thus reducing the proc rate.

If they're honestly going to not proc off of itself, they just need to rename the name of the LO proc itself; would make it alot easier on everyone, really.

In an effort to get more work done at less effort from me (I'm a busy boy atm) I've made an "Item Submission" spreadsheet that has the information I'll need to copy/paste stuff straight into ShamStats.

If I get some help with this, I can start focusing on getting calculations sorted/redone, extra features added in (like set bonuses)

Also, feel free to write up submissions for the main posts, either starting from scratch or re-writing what I already have up. Typical PvP talent builds would be useful.

I seem to like making extra posts to these threads >.<

However, after wandering back to the US shaman forums, I notice a thread linking through to an EU thread.
It's a feedback poll on shaman.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?

Any/all EU players, make sure you post there (may be for nothing, but a chance is better than no chance).

That thread is actually quite old (early august, I think), so I doubt anyone still reads it. I'd love to post if you have any comment for it, though (just... not this week. Apparently some wise-ass CM thought posting PTR data on both test and shaman forums was spamming. Yup, that's right, I got a one week ban for it :p). Even funnier is that they didn't delete either of the threads/posts.

Hmm... is there any guideline or math regarding when Flame Shock 'replace' Lightning Bolt?

Personally I've always assumed that a CL/LB-cycle was the best DPS-cycle available.

Flame shock is only higher dps than LB (FS calculated as a 1.5s spell) at fairly low levels of +dmg and crit (~600+dmg at 24% base crit). Although raid debuffs of scortch, Curse of Elements and Storm Strike change the crossover points. I can post some formulas when I get some time.


EDIT: In case it was a question. Flameshock is never more dps than CL at any +dmg amount

Its worth noting that flame shock is decent dps so for example on Lurker (if you don't get to stay under the whole time and get VE or chain healed) where you can be moving frequently flame shock is nice to throw up as you move from spot to spot but I never use it in a normal rotation since it is both more mana and less dps than LB.

For my calculations I had the flame shock coeffecients as (.35)(1.5/3.5) for the shock and (.65)(12/15) for the dot. The shock portion can crit the dot portion cannot.

The FS values took some digging and the calculated values seem to match my experimental values but it would be good if some one could confirm if they are correct.

As the previous poster said I don't think Flame Shock belongs in any 'rotation'

1) Lower coefficient
2) No 11% crit from talents
3) Half the damage gets no bonus from crit at all
4) Bosses have their debuff slots full anyway, pushing off corruption or SW:P or whatever for flameshock all the time isn't so hot.

I do however use it while moving all the time. VR, Thaladrad, Lurker as I move on and off platform, Leo as I flee from WW etc.

If I'm forced to continue moving (VR decides to spam at me) I earth shock after the CD as enhance would.

"3) Half the damage gets no bonus from crit at all"
If you look at the break down the dot portion becomes 2x the dmg as the shock portion at ~1200 +dmg 594.75 for the shock 1151.35 for the dot. Even at 700+dmg the dot does more dmg than the shock. Not getting the benefit from crit (esp since we are a crit heavy spec not to mention the 11 crit from talents) really means even with CoE and scortch and no storm strike I don't consider it viable in a rotation with good gear.

An additional point is that I would assume you would use Flask of Blinding light as your dps flask which only gives nature arcane and holy dmg not benefitting flame shock at all.

Well... I gather you used the same values that wow-wiki used, i.e. 15%/52%... however, my tests showed totally different coefficients. The direct damage coefficient appears to be closer to 22%, while the DoT coefficient is around 42%.

Now, 15/52 and you've decent scaling for spell damage, probably even more so with patch 2.3... however, 22/42 and you turn the table around.

Hmm... final word? Well, might be good if someone else could verify if my "test" and spell coefficients are accurate.

Not sure if this was noted but this could be some good news:

(WoW Forums -> 2.3 PTR Reported Issues)

Hopefully that will help us out.

No no, that's bad news and has been brought up here.

The mechanic they're using to cut LO by 50% is a hidden debuff on your character. As such, even with its short duration, it is cutting the damage of a regular casted LB by 50% if the timing is right...or wrong.

SS isn't too bad.

assume 2 casts in every 10 secs gain 20% dmg.

for LB spam thats 2 our of 5 casts.
2/5*.2 = .08 or 8%. You could treat this as a static 8% to all LBs to make it easy.

If you want to include LO (2.2 mechanics) its 5.26 (5*1.052)casts
making it
2/5.26 *.2 = .076 = 7.6%


for 3LB/1CL thats an average cast time of 1.875.
so thats 5.33 casts per 10 secs
making it 2/5.33 *.2 = .075 or 7.5% increase

with LO its 5.6 casts
so 2/5.6*.2 = .071 or 7.1% increase


I think thats a reasonable average case. At times we have 2 and more rarely 3 enh sham in the raid it pretty much ends up a static 20% improvement then and man is it fun!

Right so is he not trying to say that they are fixing it so it will not apply to casted LBs? Because right now I thought that was the main problem, we are getting casted LBs getting cut in half such as LO bolts.

Right, and that was always the bug that was going to get fixed. However there are two other issues on the test realms involving elemental shamans that are much much bigger.

1) LO is not chain proccing. If it ever did in live, it is not on PTR. People have reported doing 500-1000 tests of casting LB and waiting 3 seconds to see if a double proc happened. It hasn't. This is making LO at best 20%, not 25%.

2) LO seems to have a hidden cooldown. Not sure how long, but it seems to be 3 seconds (familiar number eh?) In chain casting situations, LO is not proccing at a 20% rate. It is proccing at a 13-15% rate by most people's tests.

Both of these add up to a signifigant decrease in Elemental DPS given the coefficient nerf.

Honestly at this point I wish they'd just put it to 5/10/15/20/25 and take off the chain proccing.

Right, re-did my Crit/Dmg calc to compare CL/LB/FS.

Using the following formulae

[top](((LB+(LBCO*$A2))*(1+crit))*LBM)/LBCa

(((CL+(CLCO*$A2))*(1+crit))*CLM)/CLCa

[top]((((FSC+(FSCCO*$A2))*(1+crit))+(FSD+(FSDCO*$A2)))*FSM)/FSCa

Where the first two letters are the spells, CO

Co-efficent, M = buff modifier, Ca = cast time
Flame Shock has FSC for the crit-able part, and FSD for the dot.

For simplicity, I added concussion and LO to the base stats & co-eff.

Now, the interesting thing is that before I added that /Ca into the calculations, we got the sort of thing you'd expect. That LB scaled better. Once I added it though, it did the opposite.

Doing some adjustments and will upload this tomorrow.

I know you are rewriting the formulas because a lot of things are changing in this patch, but isn't there something in the other elemental thread that calculated out that Flame Shock was a higher dps combo (assuming CoE and Scorch) if you worked it in but sucked up a lot more mana?

Not sure if you were going to cover item priorities in any detail in this thread, but on the off chance you are, here is a thread on the Shaman forums you might want to use as a springboard for that.

If you check post 4 (I think) he has a link to a spreadsheet that has gear ranked AND takes into account things like max hit and talents.

Might add that in.
I'm just looking at the DPS output from spells, not worrying about mana use at this stage.
Re-read the first post. Then go re-read the first 6 posts of this thread.
Realise that you posted something that I already knew about and has a link to my spreadsheets in the first post.

My shame knows no bounds.

Used fraps to capture this last night on the PTR, though i did not notice LO double procs on LB, CL did double proc for me 2 times in the draining of a mana bar. This leads me to believe that either this is a bug, LO not reprocing on LB is a bug and that there is no internal cooldown on LO at the current PTR build.

Link: LO_Multi.avi - FileFront.com

I don't know exactly what is happening with this, and how it equates into the math but figure someone will know how to add that in.