The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 51

Ace1108 · 03/13/08, 6:59 AM

okay so with haste in 2.4, i understand you can decrease the GCD, more casts is more dmg, etc, etc.

But doesn't it come to a point where haste would interrupt a cast rotation when in heroism. Like currently, i use a 3/1 cast rotation and i find myself in heroism straying from the rotation to just spam LB. In 2.4, wouldn't it be optimal to have enough haste to get chain lightning to a 1 second caste during heroism? To incorporate chain lightning into heroism plus to take advantage of other items with more crit and more +dmg, while still having this level of haste?

Gaguusi · 03/13/08, 7:10 AM

I'll try to explain how I do my haste calcs in a relatively simple manner:

Spell damage coefficient

1. First we take our current spelldamage and add it to the average base lightning bolt damage using the correct coefficient.

2. The coefficient can be calculated as follows: base casting speed (2.5) divided by 3.5. Since the LB casting speed nerf (down to 2.5 from 3.0), Blizzard has added an artificial coefficient bonus of around 0.08. This means that the correct coefficient is (2.5/3.5+0.08), which results in roughly 0.794.

3. We now take this coefficient and multiply our spelldamage with it, then add the average base lightning bolt damage. I'll use 1200 spelldamage for this example. The result is around 1594.643. Let's call this number X.

Crit chance

1. We can now put our crit % into the calculation, which works as follows (since we're all using it, I'll add the relentless skyfire diamond crit bonus as well):

2. What we'll do here is to use the damage done by our crits as well as by our non-crits, which simply means multiplying X by the chance not to crit first, and adding the result to the chance to crit multiplied by the crit coefficient and X.

3. Let's do the first part first: the chance not to crit is 100 minus the chance to crit. We also have to divide the result by 100 to get an actual percentage. This means that the formula looks as follows: X*((100-crit%)/100). Let's use 40% as our crit chance for this example, which results in about 956.786.

4. The second step is to do the same with our chance to crit, using the correct coefficient. When critting, we do twice the damage so we have to multiply X by the chance to crit, then by 2 and finally by the bonus crit damage provided by the metagem, which is around +0.09 according to most tests: X*(crit%/100)*2.09. Using our 40% crit chance, this comes to around 1333.122.

5. Now we have to add both these numbers to get our average lightning bolt hit taking our crit % into account. The result is 2289.908. Let's call this number Y.

Lightning overload

1. The next step is to incorporate lightning overload into the calculation. A simple way to explain how the damage it returns is calculated is that in 20% of cases we'll get 50% more damage, whereas in the other 80% of cases we'll just get our regular damage.

2. Let's do the first part first, meaning that we'll multiply Y by 0.2 and then by 1.5. The result is 686.972.

3. The second part is to multiply Y by 0.8. The result here is 1831.926.

4. Now we add these two numbers to get our overall result of our combined lightning bolt and lightning overload damage. The result here is 2518.898. Let's call this number Z.

Hit chance, haste, DPS & concussion

1. Now we have to put our chance to hit into the calculation, which is fairly simple, since we just have to multiply Z by it. I'll assume hit cap here, which is 99%. This means that we'll multiply 0.99 by Z, the result of which is about 2493.709 We also have to multiply this by 1.05 to account for the concussion talent. The result is 2618.395.

2. Now what we really want to know using all of this is the DPS we get in the end, and once again, incorporating this into the calculation isn't too difficult. What we have to do is take the number we got in our previous calculation and divide it by our casting time. The casting time itself is, of course, affected by our current haste, for which I'll assume a value of 150.

3. The correct way to calculate casting time is to use the normal casting time (in the case of LB 2 seconds) and divide it by 1+(haste/1577). The result of this, using 150 haste, is 1.83.

4. Now let's divide our previous number by our casting time to get our DPS done. 2618.395/1.83 = 1430.817. This is our DPS assuming LB spam with infinite mana.

To find out how much haste does for you, you simply change the haste value and check its effect on your DPS.

[e] Thanks for pointing out that error, Melthar. I made the appropriate changes.

[e2] Added Daidalos' corrections.

Melthar · 03/13/08, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Gaguusi

4. The second step is to do the same with our chance to crit, using the correct coefficient. When critting, we do twice the damage so we have to multiply X by the chance to crit, then by 2 and finally by the bonus coefficient provided by the metagem, which is around 1.09 according to most tests: X*(crit%/100)*2*1.09. Using our 40% crit chance, this comes to around 1363.933.

Not quite correct. It's actually a 2.09 modifier overall (as per the first post) The figures you are using would give a 2.18 multiplier (2*1.09)

Daidalos · 03/13/08, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gaguusi

I'll try to explain how I do my haste calcs in a relatively simple manner:

Spell damage coefficient

1. First we take our current spelldamage and add it to the average base lightning bolt damage using the correct coefficient.

2. The coefficient can be calculated as follows: base casting speed (2.5) divided by 3.5. Since the LB casting speed nerf (down to 2.5 from 3.0), Blizzard has added an artificial coefficient bonus of around 0.08. This means that the correct coefficient is (2.5/3.5+0.08), which results in roughly 0.794.

3. We now take this coefficient and multiply our spelldamage with it, then add the average base lightning bolt damage. I'll use 1200 spelldamage for this example. The result is around 1564.143. Let's call this number X.

Crit chance

1. We can now put our crit % into the calculation, which works as follows (since we're all using it, I'll add the relentless skyfire diamond crit bonus as well):

2. What we'll do here is to use the damage done by our crits as well as by our non-crits, which simply means multiplying X by the chance not to crit first, and adding the result to the chance to crit multiplied by the crit coefficient and X.

3. Let's do the first part first: the chance not to crit is 100 minus the chance to crit. We also have to divide the result by 100 to get an actual percentage. This means that the formula looks as follows: X*((100-crit%)/100). Let's use 40% as our crit chance for this example, which results in about 938.486.

4. The second step is to do the same with our chance to crit, using the correct coefficient. When critting, we do twice the damage so we have to multiply X by the chance to crit, then by 2 and finally by the bonus crit damage provided by the metagem, which is around +0.09 according to most tests: X*(crit%/100)*2.09. Using our 40% crit chance, this comes to around 1307.624.

5. Now we have to add both these numbers to get our average lightning bolt hit taking our crit % into account. The result is 2246.11. Let's call this number Y.

Lightning overload

1. The next step is to incorporate lightning overload into the calculation. A simple way to explain how the damage it returns is calculated is that in 20% of cases we'll get 50% more damage, whereas in the other 80% of cases we'll just get our regular damage.

2. Let's do the first part first, meaning that we'll multiply Y by 0.2 and then by 1.5. The result is 673.833.

3. The second part is to multiply Y by 0.8. The result here is 1796.888.

4. Now we add these two numbers to get our overall result of our combined lightning bolt and lightning overload damage. The result here is 2470.721. Let's call this number Z.

Hit chance, haste & DPS

1. Now we have to put our chance to hit into the calculation, which is fairly simple, since we just have to multiply Z by it. I'll assume hit cap here, which is 99%. This means that we'll multiply 0.99 by Z, the result of which is about 2446.014.

2. Now what we really want to know using all of this is the DPS we get in the end, and once again, incorporating this into the calculation isn't too difficult. What we have to do is take the number we got in our previous calculation and divide it by our casting time. The casting time itself is, of course, affected by our current haste, for which I'll assume a value of 150.

3. The correct way to calculate casting time is to use the normal casting time (in the case of LB 2 seconds) and divide it by 1+(haste/1577). The result of this, using 150 haste, is 1.83.

4. Now let's divide our previous number by our casting time to get our DPS done. 2446.014/1.83 = 1336.62. This is our DPS assuming LB spam with infinite mana.

To find out how much haste does for you, you simply change the haste value and check its effect on your DPS.

[e] Thanks for pointing out that error, Melthar. I made the appropriate changes.

Perhaps I missed it but I did not see concussion in there.

Ace1108 · 03/13/08, 12:47 PM

okay maybe im asking the question wrong...

how much haste are u looking to use in 2.4

Daidalos · 03/13/08, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ace1108

okay maybe im asking the question wrong...

how much haste are u looking to use in 2.4

First you should capitalize and use proper grammar on these boards or the moderator gods will get angry. Second your question is entirely without context and as such there is no answer. That is why there are spreadsheets and stats weights that take your stats into account then give you the appropriate recomendations.

If you are simply asking how much haste do you have to have before you will hit the 1s GCD under lust thats something completely different.

Gaguusi · 03/13/08, 12:59 PM

Actually, Daidalos, I was using your average damage of 611 for base LB damage. Now I'm not sure, though, how you got that number.

Lightning Bolt - Spells - World of Warcraft

Average of those two = 603

If concussion is counted at base damage, that would be 633.
If it's counted after all bonuses, it needs to be in the final calculation, obviously.

I know the answer is somewhere in this thread, probably, but I'm about to leave the office and have no time for it. If you've answered it before I get home, I'll edit this post accordingly.

To Ace1108: as Daidalos said, the question you ask doesn't make much sense unless you provide specific parameters and conditions. If you do, I'd be happy to try and help.

Daidalos · 03/13/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Gaguusi

Actually, Daidalos, I was using your average damage of 611 for base LB damage. Now I'm not sure, though, how you got that number.

Lightning Bolt - Spells - World of Warcraft

Average of those two = 603

If concussion is counted at base damage, that would be 633.
If it's counted after all bonuses, it needs to be in the final calculation, obviously.

I know the answer is somewhere in this thread, probably, but I'm about to leave the office and have no time for it. If you've answered it before I get home, I'll edit this post accordingly.

To Ace1108: as Daidalos said, the question you ask doesn't make much sense unless you provide specific parameters and conditions. If you do, I'd be happy to try and help.

Yes at level 67 LB12 does an average of 603 dmg. However LB dmg scales upwards slightly with level. At level 70 LB12 does on average 611 base dmg. And yes it was covered in this thread :-p

• Binkenstein · 03/13/08, 3:12 PM

I use a base of 642 for LB.

And I've already covered minimum haste needed for a 4/1 rotation, as well as how much haste to get to remove CL from your rotation (at least for 2.3 anyway). I'll try to update the second graph for 2.4, and add in a BL line as well.

At the moment I'm working on a new ShamSpells, and toying with the EP calcs in ShamStats

But neither will be ready for a while.

Gaguusi · 03/13/08, 4:32 PM

Fixed it all - thanks for all the input.

I hope this will rid us of any future 'which stat to stack' questions.

• Binkenstein · 03/13/08, 4:48 PM

How? I don't see any comparisons, just a "this is how I calculate haste" post which is surprisingly like every other calculation for haste (maybe because it's the right one).

Daidalos · 03/13/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Gaguusi

Fixed it all - thanks for all the input.

I hope this will rid us of any future 'which stat to stack' questions.

I see you added the word concussion to the last section.. but I don't see any of the math for it...?

Gaguusi · 03/13/08, 6:02 PM

I put it there by mistake... it's fixed now.

Ace1108 · 03/13/08, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

First you should capitalize and use proper grammar on these boards or the moderator gods will get angry. Second your question is entirely without context and as such there is no answer. That is why there are spreadsheets and stats weights that take your stats into account then give you the appropriate recomendations.

If you are simply asking how much haste do you have to have before you will hit the 1s GCD under lust thats something completely different.

How much haste do you have to have before you will hit the 1 second global cooldown with heroism?

Handyhoof · 03/13/08, 8:51 PM

A 1 second cooldown from a 1.5 second spell is 50% haste. Bloodlust gives 30% haste, leaving 20% to be provided by items. 15.76 Haste rating = 1%.

20*15.76=315.2

You can't get decimal values of haste, so we would need to bump that to 316 to theoretically hit the GCD.

This is obviously for Chain Lightning. You need 100% haste for Lightning Bolt which is out of reach.

Edit: For those who are truly curious: 100% haste - 30% (bloodlust) = 70% (items). 70*15.76 = 1103.2. Ceiling that and you get 1104 haste to bottom out LB spam.

Edit2: It turns out I'm wrong and these are multiplicative. Bink elaborates below.

Daidalos · 03/13/08, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by Gaguusi

I put it there by mistake... it's fixed now.

Where did you put it? I don't see you mul by 1.05 anywhere?

• Binkenstein · 03/13/08, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Handyhoof

A 1 second cooldown from a 1.5 second spell is 50% haste. Bloodlust gives 30% haste, leaving 20% to be provided by items. 15.76 Haste rating = 1%.

20*15.76=315.2

You can't get decimal values of haste, so we would need to bump that to 316 to theoretically hit the GCD.

This is obviously for Chain Lightning. You need 100% haste for Lightning Bolt which is out of reach.

Edit: For those who are truly curious: 100% haste - 30% (bloodlust) = 70% (items). 70*15.76 = 1103.2. Ceiling that and you get 1104 haste to bottom out LB spam.

Not quite.

30% haste from heroism changes the base cast speed.

Base/Haste% = new cast
Base/new cast = haste%

2/1.3 = 1.538 seconds.

As the new cast speed is 1, the required haste to get LB to that cast speed is 53.8%, or 849 haste rating.

SilentMunkey · 03/14/08, 3:37 AM

With LB at a 1 second cast time.... ...is mana going to be able to keep up?

Degruune · 03/14/08, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by SilentMunkey

With LB at a 1 second cast time.... ...is mana going to be able to keep up?

No it won't.
Haste is per definition a mana drain stat, increasing our DPS none the less.

• Daler · 03/14/08, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Not quite.

30% haste from heroism changes the base cast speed.

Base/Haste% = new cast
Base/new cast = haste%

2/1.3 = 1.538 seconds.

As the new cast speed is 1, the required haste to get LB to that cast speed is 53.8%, or 849 haste rating.

Color me crazy, but I could've sworn that haste was an additive effect for all sources. Did I completely miss a memo here? Is that only true of haste rating per gear slot then?

Which category do haste procs from, e.g. Drums of Battle and Quag's Eye, belong to?

Gaguusi · 03/14/08, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

How? I don't see any comparisons, just a "this is how I calculate haste" post which is surprisingly like every other calculation for haste (maybe because it's the right one).

Well, because hopefully people will just plug in their own numbers instead of posting their stats and asking for advice. Premade spreadsheets have the disadvantage that you don't really understand how the numbers are made up, so I think those who ask here sometimes don't trust the sheets.

You can also reverse-engineer the formula and thus find out how much spelldamage is needed for 1% more DPS, which is what I did.

The 1.05 factor of concussion is in the base LB damage of the calculation. I used 641.5 for that.

Daidalos · 03/14/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Daler

Color me crazy, but I could've sworn that haste was an additive effect for all sources. Did I completely miss a memo here? Is that only true of haste rating per gear slot then?

Which category do haste procs from, e.g. Drums of Battle and Quag's Eye, belong to?

Percentage haste effects and haste rating are not applied the same way. For example you have 100 haste and you have an item that gives 100 haste on proc. It will calculate 200 haste rating for the next spell cast. However for % based effects things are calculated differently (multiplicatively) as in Bink's example.

Daidalos · 03/14/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gaguusi

Well, because hopefully people will just plug in their own numbers instead of posting their stats and asking for advice. Premade spreadsheets have the disadvantage that you don't really understand how the numbers are made up, so I think those who ask here sometimes don't trust the sheets.

You can also reverse-engineer the formula and thus find out how much spelldamage is needed for 1% more DPS, which is what I did.

The 1.05 factor of concussion is in the base LB damage of the calculation. I used 641.5 for that.

You cannot simply increase the base dmg since concussion is applied after your plus dmg has been taken into account so it applies to the +dmg coefficient as well.

Well "something for people to plug in thier own numbers" is kinda the point of a spreadsheet.

Degruune · 03/14/08, 12:44 PM

I'm using the "spreadsheet" above here to calculate some values based on my gear, and my wishlist gear.
Now, in my "next version" I'd like to add the 2 piece and 4 piece T6 set bonuses.

My question about this is in general, "How do I do this?".
In detail:
- 2 piece bonus;
I reckon I can take the numbers from the bonus since it's no proc and it will theoretically be correct to use those numbers
- 4 piece bonus;
On what value do I need to apply the 5% extra lightning bolt damage? Do I add that to the base dmg, or do I add that to the base dmg + (spelldamage * coefficient)?

Daidalos · 03/14/08, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Degruune

I'm using the "spreadsheet" above here to calculate some values based on my gear, and my wishlist gear.
Now, in my "next version" I'd like to add the 2 piece and 4 piece T6 set bonuses.

My question about this is in general, "How do I do this?".
In detail:
- 2 piece bonus;
I reckon I can take the numbers from the bonus since it's no proc and it will theoretically be correct to use those numbers
- 4 piece bonus;
On what value do I need to apply the 5% extra lightning bolt damage? Do I add that to the base dmg, or do I add that to the base dmg + (spelldamage * coefficient)?

To my knowledge all percentage based effects are applied after +dmg is applied. A long time ago many effects and talents were applied before +dmg was calculated but currently you can safely assume everything is after +dmg is applied. There may be exceptions to this but if in doubt apply after and then confirm with testing. As far as I know all 4pc t6 bonuse's of 5-6% more dmg/healing are applied after +dmg/healing.