Assuming you can get every item from Sunwell, the T6 gloves are the ones I plan on keeping, as the Sunwell gloves are the smallest upgrade. That said, this is assuming you are killing Kil'Jaeden to get the helm or chest.
I'm planning on going with shoulders for two reasons: The T6 shoulders and Sunwell gloves come with two Blue slots ready for my meta, which adds to their benefit(albiet minorly), and I go from 3 gem slots on Shoulders and Gloves to 4 gem slots(Yellow, Blue Yellow, to Blue Red, Blue Yellow).
Reguarding Skycall Totem:
I went to the last 10 raids I was in and added up the total LB cast and divided that by the total energized buff (Skycall) and they averaged 13.1694 LB : 1 Energized. I am a LB Spam and allways have my Skycall equiped. So not based on time but straght up LB:Skycall would this work better on figuring out % of uptime and DMG equiv. Note, I did include all cast like resist, misses, crits, and normal LB cast. This is 10 days of raiding of approx. 4 hours or more. I am sure that if others would keep Skycall Totem equiped for a whole raid and do the same avg it would prob be very close to my ratio.
Note: My ratios from the 10 raids 12:1, 13.56:1, 13.414:1, 13:1, 13.26:1, 14.25:1, 13.37:1, 13.75:1, 13.26:1, 11.83:1
EDIT: if you test you must have Skycall equiped any time you cast a LB.
What is this based on? If you are using instances of Energized buff, as we mentioned on the last page, it only counts it if it doesn't get refreshed. This means your ratio is always going to be lower than the real number.
You can demonstrate this very easily by looking at your combat log and spamming rank 1 LB on some mob until you get two back to back procs.
We aren't lacking data on WWS, all of us have a Skycall Totem, what we are lacking is a large amount of test data eliminating the overlap (with the exception of the one post on the previous page doing just that.)
I'm currently rolling around in a mix of t4-level gear and Vindicator's and S3 pieces. I have no spell haste and 33 +hit. My LB crit self-buffed is right around 40%.
I see the new badge gear coming out, and I'm still saving for more S3 pieces. My guild will not have access to BT or Hyjal any time soon, so I'm trying to max out my DPS with welfare epics. In your expert opinions, should I be rocking a full S3 set with Vindicators, or should I replace what I can with the haste badge gear even though it will reduce my crit rate? For a pseudo-T5 ele shaman, what's a good mix?
I have about 40% crit, 815 +dmg, 33 hit, and 0 haste presently. I am only behind the destruction warlocks on boss fights for overall damage, but feel I'm about capped until I get BT/Hyjal gear (SSC and TK are hard on ele shaman).
Thanks for any thoughts.
PS my party is always 2 destro locks, a boomkin, a shadow priest, and me and we usually are the top 5 dps on bosses with the locks #1 and #2 with me #3.
I'm currently rolling around in a mix of t4-level gear and Vindicator's and S3 pieces. I have no spell haste and 33 +hit. My LB crit self-buffed is right around 40%.
I see the new badge gear coming out, and I'm still saving for more S3 pieces. My guild will not have access to BT or Hyjal any time soon, so I'm trying to max out my DPS with welfare epics. In your expert opinions, should I be rocking a full S3 set with Vindicators, or should I replace what I can with the haste badge gear even though it will reduce my crit rate? For a pseudo-T5 ele shaman, what's a good mix?
I have about 40% crit, 815 +dmg, 33 hit, and 0 haste presently. I am only behind the destruction warlocks on boss fights for overall damage, but feel I'm about capped until I get BT/Hyjal gear (SSC and TK are hard on ele shaman).
Thanks for any thoughts.
PS my party is always 2 destro locks, a boomkin, a shadow priest, and me and we usually are the top 5 dps on bosses with the locks #1 and #2 with me #3.
You should probably cap your hit before you worry about anything else, as it will give the best returns per point invested until it's capped.
I'm currently rolling around in a mix of t4-level gear and Vindicator's and S3 pieces. I have no spell haste and 33 +hit. My LB crit self-buffed is right around 40%.
I see the new badge gear coming out, and I'm still saving for more S3 pieces. My guild will not have access to BT or Hyjal any time soon, so I'm trying to max out my DPS with welfare epics. In your expert opinions, should I be rocking a full S3 set with Vindicators, or should I replace what I can with the haste badge gear even though it will reduce my crit rate? For a pseudo-T5 ele shaman, what's a good mix?
I have about 40% crit, 815 +dmg, 33 hit, and 0 haste presently. I am only behind the destruction warlocks on boss fights for overall damage, but feel I'm about capped until I get BT/Hyjal gear (SSC and TK are hard on ele shaman).
Thanks for any thoughts.
PS my party is always 2 destro locks, a boomkin, a shadow priest, and me and we usually are the top 5 dps on bosses with the locks #1 and #2 with me #3.
I'm somewhat surprsied you aren't hit capped. As the above poster mentioned its the best per rating dps increase for you possible until cap. 51 hit for non dreanai is ridiculously easy to accomplish.
Also I want to point out for all posters statements like "I am top # dps in my guild" means absolutely nothing. At the very least post your actual dps numbers if you want to make some point about it. Much preferrably a WWS link showing whatever it is you are trying to make a point of.
As for the gear get hit capped then ask your self if the shadow priest returning me enough mana? If so use my or binks stat weights and apply them to gear. If the spreist is failing and you are running OOM don't get haste, get more crit
Really there should be no posts about what gear should I get unless its not about dps. Stat weights are listed in both my and Binks spreadsheets as well the original posts in this thread. Use the weights. Apply it to the gear you are looking at. Only then if there is still an actual question post about it.
Sorry if I have missed any previous discussion about this but seems to me that [Quick Lionseye] will be better than [Runed Crimson Spinel] in 2.4, or am I wrong?
At least based on my current gear and spreadsheet.
Sorry if I have missed any previous discussion about this but seems to me that [Quick Lionseye] will be better than [Runed Crimson Spinel] in 2.4, or am I wrong?
At least based on my current gear and spreadsheet.
This will be true for most people. [Quick Lionseye] will be about 14 DEP. The difference is small however. I would probably not put a pure haste gem in a red socket for example but I argue this is now a good reason for picking up socket bonuses (assuming they are +dmg). Previously it was usually best to gem for pure dmg if there was more than 1 non red socket.
I know asking gear questions is a no-no, but I'm curious as to what trinkets I should be using. Currently I have Crusade, TLC, and Quag's Eye (I have Icon banked as well, but I don't think it's comparable to those 3). Bink's shamstats goes TLC>Quag's>DM: C (though equivalent DEP values), but I've seen other posts in this thread that say DM: C > TLC and don't mention Quag's at all. I understand that in every combination of those three the DPS difference is likely to be minimal, I guess I just want opinions on what might be best.
As for the gear get hit capped then ask your self if the shadow priest returning me enough mana? If so use my or binks stat weights and apply them to gear. If the spreist is failing and you are running OOM don't get haste, get more crit
Getting hit capped can also lower total damage. At least it does for me. Also in my particular case, it's not mana returned from a Shadow Priest that's a problem, but the rest of the raid being terrible at DPS such that my total damage potential is more important than my DPS.
Just pointing out there are other factors to consider besides being hit capped and having bad shadow priests.
Getting hit capped can also lower total damage. At least it does for me. Also in my particular case, it's not mana returned from a Shadow Priest that's a problem, but the rest of the raid being terrible at DPS such that my total damage potential is more important than my DPS.
Just pointing out there are other factors to consider besides being hit capped and having bad shadow priests.
Not when you have a 4% hit cap and sockets. Just swap your crit/dam for hit/dam gems.
Getting hit capped can also lower total damage. At least it does for me. Also in my particular case, it's not mana returned from a Shadow Priest that's a problem, but the rest of the raid being terrible at DPS such that my total damage potential is more important than my DPS.
Just pointing out there are other factors to consider besides being hit capped and having bad shadow priests.
Its impossible that achieving hit cap would lower your dps unless you have no sockets or already have all hit gems in all of your sockets or perhaps if you only have 2 sockets and are using for blue gems to gain your meta.
With a good shadow preist and proper raid buffs and 40% crit and 200 haste rating you should basically never run out of mana even with a 4 LB 1 CL rotation. So again if you don't run out of mana your total dmg will only go up with your dps.
Sorry about admitting to my lack of hit cap earlier - I know its the #1 thing to fix. But assuming I fix that with a couple of gems, I'm having trouble deciding what to get next as far as badge/haste gear vs arena/crit gear goes
I know I'm going to sound a bit like a noob for asking this, but I'm afraid I'm not 100% clear on how to apply the calculated gear weightings. Sorry.
I have (base) 818 spell dmg, 385 crit rating, 0 haste. I see that Diadalos posted that (depending on your overall gearing)
crit rating -> dmg is like 0.85
haste rating -> dmg is like 1.3
does that mean that if I'm considering 3 pieces of gear with similar stats, these numbers would be roughly equivalent as far as my needs are concerned?:
50 dmg = 42.5 crit = 65 haste ? If this is true, I've been on the right track by mostly grabbing crit gear up til now.
or do I have it backwards so
50 dmg = 59 crit = 38 haste ? If this is true, I've skipped some dmg and haste gear that would have helped me more than the crit gear I've chosen.
Looking at those numbers makes me wonder if I don't have too much crit vs dmg and seriously not enough haste? Up to now I've always taken gear/gems with crit over gear with damage and totally ignored haste. My DPS is solid but I'm wondering if my reliance on crit is holding me back at this point?
I didn't say it lowered my DPS, I said it lowered my damage. Slotting in the 1 or 2 gems (depending on gem type) to hit cap myself only lowers my total damage a tiny bit, but it doesn't increase DPS by the same ratio.
Adding haste at this point is about equivalent to adding spirit; it makes me less effective than I'm required to be. If I added that much haste, I'd spend the last 3 or 4 minutes of the fight flinging one lightning bolt every 6 seconds. 3 minutes of +70 DPS isn't worth 3 minutes of -600 DPS.
What is this based on? If you are using instances of Energized buff, as we mentioned on the last page, it only counts it if it doesn't get refreshed. This means your ratio is always going to be lower than the real number.
You can demonstrate this very easily by looking at your combat log and spamming rank 1 LB on some mob until you get two back to back procs.
We aren't lacking data on WWS, all of us have a Skycall Totem, what we are lacking is a large amount of test data eliminating the overlap (with the exception of the one post on the previous page doing just that.)
The problem I see is that I have not seen Energized refreashed it comes up counts down its time and goes away for short period then procs again. Alll so my combat log pops Engerized every time it starts it count down so I am not sure that it realy does over lap.
Also if you look at 7 of my 10 groups they all around 13.37 +/-.37 approx.
Also we may all have Skycall Totem but we all do not use it thru a whole raid. Some switch between +spell and haste totems during BL.
I didn't say it lowered my DPS, I said it lowered my damage. Slotting in the 1 or 2 gems (depending on gem type) to hit cap myself only lowers my total damage a tiny bit, but it doesn't increase DPS by the same ratio.
Adding haste at this point is about equivalent to adding spirit; it makes me less effective than I'm required to be. If I added that much haste, I'd spend the last 3 or 4 minutes of the fight flinging one lightning bolt every 6 seconds. 3 minutes of +70 DPS isn't worth 3 minutes of -600 DPS.
I'd like to see some math to back up these claims since they don't correlate with any numbers we have seen or in game experience for that matter. Hit is way way better than spell dmg haste or crit for increasing dps. Actually hit will increase your total dmg done since you will get in more crits instead of resists.
You said you had a spreist. With a shadow priest mana pots and proper raid buffs you should be getting back over 600 mp5. If a 4 LB 1 CL rotation with 200 haste rating and 40% crit you will be consuming about 700.
Super Man Pot 100
Blessing of Wisdom 49
Mana Spring 50
Mp5 gear / Talents 80
Water Shield 50
Spriest 300
total 629 mp5
Spell LB12 CL6
Cast time 1.92 1.48
Mana Cost 270.00 684.00
"" w/ EF 193.98 491.41
so with a 4 lb 1 cl rotation and 150ms between casts
total time of rotation is 9.18
total mana used is 1267.33
mana conused per 5s is 690.2539809
for a net loss of 61mp5
so with 11k mana
11000mana / 61mana/5 = 180*5s = 901s.
And if you were to look at the numbers with pure LB spam you will see a net gain of mana. So assuming you have 40% crit and a good spreist you points about running about of mana seem very questionable. I would try to add any start before being hit capped though.
My armory is there. Plug it into ShamStats, then try changing anything for hit, or anything for haste. Total damage decreases.
Of course it decreases your damage, you have to give up something to achieve the hit cap. You seem to be confusing the damage individual spells deal with the overall damage that all your spells do during a fight. Spell hit doesn't make your spells hit harder it ensures that they dont' get resisted as often. I personally would rather have a LB that crits for 2800 and rarely gets resisted than a LB that crits for 3200 and gets resisted quite frequently.
Right, which is why I keep saying that DPS time goes down resulting in lower total damage.
First, you've never said that. Second, why on earth would you think that maxing your spell hit reduces your active DPS time?
The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
You have however, said this:
Getting hit capped can also lower total damage. At least it does for me.
Spells are on a 2 roll system, i.e. they must hit first before they can crit or be partially resisted. Add to that hit rating's excellent conversion rate to % (12.6:1, better than any other combat rating), and you have an undeniable advantage for spell hit, point for point, over any other stat (up to the cap at 99% hit rate, of course).
As I see it, all that's left is for you to either make with the math that demonstrates your point or to kindly stop posting unsubstantiated claims. If you have a separate theory about spell hit that would decrease its value, by all means, state so and make your case. But this baseless crap has to stop. The fact that there are this many posts on this topic boggles my mind.
Last edited by Daler : 03/26/08 at 2:12 PM.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
Unless ShamStats is wrong, it tells me that if I change any aspect of my gear for hit or for haste that my total damage goes down more significantly than my DPS goes up. That's damage per encounter, not per second, or per spell or whatever else you want to assume I actually mean but have never said.
The math was provided by the people that built the spreadsheet upon which this topic is based.
Keep in mind that ShamStats is not an end all be all...use it as a guide. We really don't have an excuse to NOT reach the hit-cap, given that we only need 4% from gear. How exactly were you trying to change your gear? ShamStats should still value hit as a high value if you're under the cap. You're close enough that changing a couple gems around will get you there, but updating that in ShamStats will likely give you an inaccurate number since it devalues any hit that takes you above the cap.
As for haste, ShamStats does take mana use into consideration, which could be where you're getting low numbers from.
Ultimately, while ShamStats is a great tool, don't use it as an absolute. The math between haste, hit, crit, and damage has been shown elsewhere in this thread, too...take that into consideration as well
Unless ShamStats is wrong, it tells me that if I change any aspect of my gear for hit or for haste that my total damage goes down more significantly than my DPS goes up. That's damage per encounter, not per second, or per spell or whatever else you want to assume I actually mean but have never said.
The math was provided by the people that built the spreadsheet upon which this topic is based.
Again that is due to mana issues. I posted above what regen should be like with a spirest. Assuming you have proper raid buffs and a spirest mana is not an issue so you do not need to worry about encounter damage. If you don't have an spriest or JoW yes then haste may not be the best.
Do you even have spreist selected in sham stats?
Unless ShamStats is wrong, it tells me that if I change any aspect of my gear for hit or for haste that my total damage goes down more significantly than my DPS goes up. That's damage per encounter, not per second, or per spell or whatever else you want to assume I actually mean but have never said.
The math was provided by the people that built the spreadsheet upon which this topic is based.
Is this the appropriate spot to post a "You're doing it wrong" image?
Firstly, the only way you can say that adding hit reduces your damage is if you play with gems/enchants rather than actual items themselves. Try removing your glove enchant, then replacing it with the spell hit one (think it's loaded in).
Secondly, lets look at how + hit works.
Spells have a 83% chance to hit a lvl 73 boss, or a 17% chance to miss. There will always be a 1% chance, so the maximum hit required for any caster is 16%. When theorycrafting, to account for our hit % we multiply the average spell damage by our chance to hit, to give us a more accurate average damage for 100 casts.
Thusly, as we increase +hit, this modifier increases to the maximum of 0.99.
If you see a decrease of dps and/or damage, then it is most likely because you are changing an item for another item, and ignoring the change in other stats between those items. This is what would account for your "observed decrease in est damage".
The other possible reason is that the math is wrong, but I'm fairly certain I fixed everything.
03/23/08, 5:47 PM
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