The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 58

Laxxz · 03/31/08, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Talent Builds[list][*]41/0/20 - Example 41/0/20 build
In this guild

I believe you meant "In this build"

whave · 03/31/08, 8:18 AM

Checked TLC procs numerous times in BT yesterday; did not notice any more resists than usual. Recount was showing between 0.8%-1.2% for LB as always. The trinket is still fine

everwatch · 04/01/08, 10:19 AM

OK, so I've been out of the circuit a bit for a while now...but I come back and this Skycall stuff is all over the place...*mutter* *grumble*

*I* could have misread some previous posts from way back, but the impression I got was the ninja math monkeys found that Skycall pushed the "I Win Button" for best in slot for totems. Obviously this is not viewed by the majority as truth.

I run at 12% haste currently. I cast at a 4/1 rotation with a SP. I have been using Skycall. I personally thought my DPS was a lil lower, but as I had no math, it could have been nothing. Now maybe, it was lower in actuallity? Help me out here please?

85 spell damage or Skycall in my totem slot. I have both. I'm at 12% hase with a 4/1 rotation. What = best?

I'm back to Elemental finally for Sunwell. We recruited an Enhancement Shaman today!!

Woot!! *happy dance*

(As an odd side note for those who respec for PvP. I did a 40/21/0 spec and the survivability is *amazing* in arenas.)

Someone earlier said he was he didn't need to spell hit cap cause it would net a dps loss. I stopped reading because what you were saying was just that stupid. Ele Shaman = spell hit capped. Period. Don't be gay Sparky. Don't be gay. If your response is, "Give me facts why!!" My response would be, "Learn how to read. The OP and all of the responses by very well informed shaman should have spelled it out."

Sidetrack:

I've seen *some* discussion on which T6 pieces to use to keep 4 set bonus. 1st question is to Daidalos. Do you have T6.5 stat equivalencies? *begs and pleased for ninja math monkey numbers* o.o

Based upon the numbers I've played with so far (using T6 stat equivalencies) the new Helm is a +63 spell damage increase, the new Glove is a + 44 spell damage increase, and the new Belt is a -20 spell damage decrease. The 4 set of course makes up for the loss on the belt.

So it seems to me that the best course of action is to take the 3 new T6 pieces and the T6 gloves with the 4 new mail pieces (Assuming of couse you have gotten everything. I don't care about the math on what to use when before you have everything. I can do that on my own.). HOWEVER...I am a person who likes style. I do play this game to look PIMP. May not matter to some, but I like how my toon looks. I never show the helm...so I am seriously leaning towards using T6 helm (graphic turned off) and running with the new BP, Legs, Glove, and Shoulder. It looks mother fucking PIMP!!! And it only nets me a loss of 19 spell damage (assuming again T6 equivalencies...but I NEEDS T6.5 ones!! *enter plug for further beggingssssss*). Sooooo...if it is only about a 20 spell damage loss I will likely take that path. But that's just it. I don't know how accurate those numbers are now considering they are T6 numbers. Help!?!?

Buanna · 04/01/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by everwatch

Someone earlier said he was he didn't need to spell hit cap cause it would net a dps loss. I stopped reading because what you were saying was just that stupid.

That isn't what I said, that's just what you read with your idiot's reading comprehension. Try again. But you're not actually interested in the facts so much as trying to pass yourself off as one of the "experts".

Allow me to put it in terms you might understand. I said "the sky isn't always the shade of blue you claim." You, and several other morons responded "of course the grass is green." But thanks to the two people who actually responded to my claim instead of being blowhards that only pretend to understand things to look important.

Good luck with your future endeavors.

everwatch · 04/01/08, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Buanna

Getting hit capped can also lower total damage. At least it does for me. Also in my particular case, it's not mana returned from a Shadow Priest that's a problem, but the rest of the raid being terrible at DPS such that my total damage potential is more important than my DPS.

Just pointing out there are other factors to consider besides being hit capped and having bad shadow priests.

Originally Posted by Buanna

That isn't what I said, that's just what you read with your idiot's reading comprehension. Try again. But you're not actually interested in the facts so much as trying to pass yourself off as one of the "experts".

Allow me to put it in terms you might understand. I said "the sky isn't always the shade of blue you claim." You, and several other morons responded "of course the grass is green." But thanks to the two people who actually responded to my claim instead of being blowhards.

You must be right. Nowhere does it state the mechanics of the spell needing to actually land a hit in order for all of the damage modifiers to apply. You could not have researched that first and understood that principle. And I know nothing about Ele Shaman.

When people refer to their DPS in a raid environment, in actuallity they refer to how much damage they are doing. I could make my DPS over 2k every fight if I wanted to, but never once be in the top 5 damage done. People say they were in the Top 5 DPS in their raid. While if you actually look at WWS's often these people will be say number 6-10 DPS, but their total damage for the encounter places them in the Top 5. The entire basis of the model that ShamStats uses in one setting accounts specifically for total damage done based upon not running out of mana and being stuck in a nil zone. Again, this is gearing you towards top end damage, if not DPS. Yet still, people commonly refer to their total damage done for an encounter as how good their DPS is.

So you should expect to have a reference of "Getting hit capped can also lower total damage." to be interpreted and understood as the goal for DPS in common internet forums terms. If you want a differentation in set means, such as how much your LB is doing, then you should state so more clearly as to what specifics (whatever they may be) you are pointing out.

Many of us have had to survive many a fight without a SP and make due. If you have a good SP then mana is not an issue. If you have a SP and mana is an issue, then your SP stinks, or you geared out wrong, or a combination of the two. End of story. If you have a good SP, and you're having issues with doing good total damage, and your raid stinks at DPS, but you don't, then you need to seriously re-examine your definitions of "good".

Hitting grants damage and possible clearcasting (ie mana conservation). Missing grants 0 damage and non mana conservation. If such a simple principle escapes you, then there are MULTIPLE posts in this thread clearly stating how important spell hit capping is with much more eloquent examples.

If you wonder why people (like me) get aggravated with people (like you) asking questions (or stating false claims with no factual documentation, WWS, combat logs, reports, etc...) that are already answered elsewhere, see you. I'm not interested in plugging your Armory stats into anything. You made a claim you cannot support or prove with actual documentation, while this thread (had you looked) has multiple references to spell hit capping being extremely important to the point of giving up +dmg/haste/crit in order to make sure you stay hit capped.

Don't get me wrong. I can be a shit starter. And I've even butted heads with people whose opinions I extremely respect (such as Daidalos who alone has taught me more about Ele Shaman than any other source has). But I at least listed WWS's and test examples to back up my claims or arguements, nor did I attack well founded or thought out concepts without giving reasoning and explanation as to why I thought those things were wrong. In fact I remember some people calling BS on something I said and I went back to look at my own WWS's. They were right and I was wrong, and I said so.

You however simply state, "Getting hit capped can also lower total damage. At least it does for me." I've got no reason to believe you. But I have lots of reasons to think you did not read all of this thread.

Shkarn · 04/01/08, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by whave

Checked TLC procs numerous times in BT yesterday; did not notice any more resists than usual. Recount was showing between 0.8%-1.2% for LB as always. The trinket is still fine

That seems to match the results I saw as well. Granted, I only looked at one WWS of it so far, but a guildie (destro lock) was using her TLC last night in BT. Her Shadow Bolt miss % was around 3.7% and her Lightning Bolt miss % was around 3.8%. I'll probably run with it tonight and look at the WWS afterwards, but it seems as though (at least at first glance) that TLC either wasn't changed or benefits from our spell hit.

Buanna · 04/01/08, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

When people refer to their DPS in a raid environment, in actuallity they refer to how much damage they are doing. I could make my DPS over 2k every fight if I wanted to, but never once be in the top 5 damage done. People say they were in the Top 5 DPS in their raid. While if you actually look at WWS's often these people will be say number 6-10 DPS, but their total damage for the encounter places them in the Top 5. The entire basis of the model that ShamStats uses in one setting accounts specifically for total damage done based upon not running out of mana and being stuck in a nil zone. Again, this is gearing you towards top end damage, if not DPS. Yet still, people commonly refer to their total damage done for an encounter as how good their DPS is.

Communicating poorly on purpose is no excuse. DPS and total damage are not synonymous.

• Daler · 04/01/08, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Buanna

That isn't what I said, that's just what you read with your idiot's reading comprehension. Try again. But you're not actually interested in the facts so much as trying to pass yourself off as one of the "experts".

Allow me to put it in terms you might understand. I said "the sky isn't always the shade of blue you claim." You, and several other morons responded "of course the grass is green." But thanks to the two people who actually responded to my claim instead of being blowhards that only pretend to understand things to look important.

Good luck with your future endeavors.

Ease up on the trolling. You don't like what we have to say regarding your "theory", you're free not to read this thread and continue gemming/gearing as you please. It's your $15, use it as you will.

It's been explained multiple times that the total damage in Bink's spreadsheet is a calculation based on when you run OOM. You'll notice the total time until OOM in cell W37 on the main page. If you're not chain casting for that entire time, then it's an inaccurate metric for actual damage done during an encounter.

Additionally, you stated that mana return from your shadow priest isn't a problem. I can only assume that means you aren't running OOM during your average encounter. If that's the case, then an increase in DPS will always yield a greater total damage done.

Daidalos · 04/01/08, 4:19 PM

I"m fairly sure this horse is dead can we stop beating it now?

Has anyone totaled up what stats will be in full sunwell gear? I think it should be possible with bink's sheet but I haven't been keeping up with his latest vers. I wanted to get some stat weights based on actual gear fully gemmed n such instead of guesstimates. What kinda stats are people looking at in full t6 or partial sunwell ? I would assume with sunwell there is no point since there is no more gear to get? SO maybe we should just get stat weights for full t6 and partial t6 + sunwell.

Kasi · 04/01/08, 5:29 PM

Are you just talking gear or including buffs in there? If you're just talking gear its not too hard really. I'd say going from full BT/MH gear to full Sunwell gear you gain like 80-100 spell damage, 20-30 spell crit and about 250+ spell haste. That is the stat we're getting ridiculous gains on. Also a lot depends on what you gemmed. I can work out the exact match later if you want, but yeah the damage increase is on the order of 5-10 tops for each piece (other than weapon), very little increase in crit and massive spell haste bonuses.

Edit: I have noticed some nice dps upgrades though. I've picked up the trash gloves from Sunwell. With that and 4p T6 and some other haste gear I managed like 1450 dps the other day on Teron with no flask on and a very bad crit rate (30%, 10% under my normal). I can totally see doing 1750+ dps on Brutallus.

• Binkenstein · 04/01/08, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

85 spell damage or Skycall in my totem slot. I have both. I'm at 12% hase with a 4/1 rotation. What = best?

Since your base haste is over the 3/4 LB break even point for a LB/CL rotation, either will work depending on haste & damage valuations (I think we still have to revisit the uptime of skycall at some point)

Originally Posted by Shkarn

That seems to match the results I saw as well. Granted, I only looked at one WWS of it so far, but a guildie (destro lock) was using her TLC last night in BT. Her Shadow Bolt miss % was around 3.7% and her Lightning Bolt miss % was around 3.8%. I'll probably run with it tonight and look at the WWS afterwards, but it seems as though (at least at first glance) that TLC either wasn't changed or benefits from our spell hit.

I'd say that I'll throw on TLC this week to test it, but I just got 4pc T6 and I want to top the damage charts so I can convince our other DPS classes to pick their games up in preparation for Brut

Originally Posted by Daler

Ease up on the trolling. You don't like what we have to say regarding your "theory", you're free not to read this thread and continue gemming/gearing as you please. It's your $15, use it as you will.

It's been explained multiple times that the total damage in Bink's spreadsheet is a calculation based on when you run OOM. You'll notice the total time until OOM in cell W37 on the main page. If you're not chain casting for that entire time, then it's an inaccurate metric for actual damage done during an encounter.

Additionally, you stated that mana return from your shadow priest isn't a problem. I can only assume that means you aren't running OOM during your average encounter. If that's the case, then an increase in DPS will always yield a greater total damage done.

I'm working on a new version, which handles the DPS value as damage done divided by fight duration, and calculates damage done till OOM, then damage done based on regen for the remainder of the fight as a simple regen/use * dps calculation(I haven't figured out how to account for spirit yet though)

Originally Posted by Daidalos

I"m fairly sure this horse is dead can we stop beating it now?

Has anyone totaled up what stats will be in full sunwell gear? I think it should be possible with bink's sheet but I haven't been keeping up with his latest vers. I wanted to get some stat weights based on actual gear fully gemmed n such instead of guesstimates. What kinda stats are people looking at in full t6 or partial sunwell ? I would assume with sunwell there is no point since there is no more gear to get? SO maybe we should just get stat weights for full t6 and partial t6 + sunwell.

Rough estimate is 2k dps (with a shadow priest, 1.5k without) with best-in-slot gear. I'll do a count up of the stats later today (if I get the time)

everwatch · 04/01/08, 7:17 PM

My "Sparky" comment is a direct reference to the famous Big Gay Al episode in South Park. It's an episode where they actually promote the understanding of homosexuality and its acceptance. I though the episode was famous enough to where people got that. For those who did not, I'll say I'm sorry and move on, though you could probably youtube it if you don't believe me. Moving on...

The biggest issue I see with T6.5 itemization is that absolutely nothing comes with Spell Hit on it. Without JC and a Skull of Guldan it appears you will actually have to specifically choose where to pull your spell hit from, which could affect your stat weights if you choose to use items to cover this hole. The BoE JC ring is appearing to be a must have. Also slotting some spell hit gems for the first time ever appears to be something that must be done as well.

So as of this moment it is up in the air whether to use Skycall or 85 spell damage?

• Daler · 04/01/08, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

The biggest issue I see with T6.5 itemization is that absolutely nothing comes with Spell Hit on it.

There's plenty of options to reach the hit cap for T6.5.

Alliance shaman need - 24 hit rating (after head enchant)
Horde shaman need - 37 hit rating (after head enchant)

Necklace:
[Amulet of Unfettered Magics] - 15 spell hit
[Translucent Spellthread Necklace] - 15 spell hit

Ring:
JC: [Loop of Forged Power] - 19 spell hit (a nice alternative to [Ring of Ancient Knowledge])
BoJ: [Fused Nethergon Band] - 28 spell hit
[Ring of Captured Storms] - 19 spell hit

Off-hand:
[Blind-Seers Icon] - 24 spell hit
[Chronicle of Dark Secrets] - 17 spell hit

Trinkets:
[The Skull of Gul'dan] - 25 spell hit

Head:
Eng: [Lightning Etched Specs] - 25 spell hit

You certainly don't have to gem for hit if you don't want to. With a couple of gear slots, you can easily hit the cap (the joys of being a shaman

). The BoJ ring alone will be enough to cap Alliance shaman, with Horde shaman having to use at most 2 items, or the BoJ ring and 1 [Great Lionseye].

Croaker · 04/01/08, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Has anyone totaled up what stats will be in full sunwell gear? I think it should be possible with bink's sheet but I haven't been keeping up with his latest vers. I wanted to get some stat weights based on actual gear fully gemmed n such instead of guesstimates. What kinda stats are people looking at in full t6 or partial sunwell ? I would assume with sunwell there is no point since there is no more gear to get? SO maybe we should just get stat weights for full t6 and partial t6 + sunwell.

My numbers work out to ~1236 dmg, 109 hit rating, 21% crit, 375 passive haste. Obviously a couple of different item selections could juggle these numbers in different directions. For example, the hit rating is a little high for ideal.

:EDIT: Link: Killawatt - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Counting the jewelcrafting neck, which wasn't yet available in the database. It's also not counting a new weapon yet because I didn't look too hard in Sunwell for upgrades since Sunflare or whatever hasn't been located yet (but assuming Kil'jaeden).

everwatch · 04/01/08, 8:04 PM

The biggest issue I see with T6.5 itemization is that absolutely nothing comes with Spell Hit on it.

Most of those you list are not T6.5 items... >.< I said exlcuding JC, and I should have said excluding Eng as well... The majority of Shaman are not all going to be Eng and JC's.

I'm not sure the answer is downgrading slots to use lower item level gear to make up for the hit (excluding Skull of Guldan if you have one). I think due to the itemization the answer is the JC BoE ring and spell hit gems/enchants.

• Daler · 04/01/08, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Croaker

My numbers work out to ~1236 dmg, 109 hit rating, 21% crit, 375 passive haste. Obviously a couple of different item selections could juggle these numbers in different directions. For example, the hit rating is a little high for ideal.

:EDIT: Link: Killawatt - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Counting the jewelcrafting neck, which wasn't yet available in the database. It's also not counting a new weapon yet because I didn't look too hard in Sunwell for upgrades since Sunflare or whatever hasn't been located yet (but assuming Kel'Thuzad).

That's odd. When I follow your link, I see the new T6 pieces having crit and hit instead of crit and haste.

That might also be a good reason to keep the T6 gloves instead of the T6 shoulders. With the 19 hit, it puts the cap at 5 hit rating for alliance shaman and 18 for horde shaman. Plus, I believe Bink mentioned a few pages back or so that the T6 gloves are the smallest upgrade for the SW items.

I haven't done any well thought out analysis on what I'll take since I'm still plodding along in T6 content, so that bridge is a fair deal off for me.

tufy · 04/02/08, 3:13 AM

Originally Posted by everwatch

The biggest issue I see with T6.5 itemization is that absolutely nothing comes with Spell Hit on it.

Most of those you list are not T6.5 items... >.< I said exlcuding JC, and I should have said excluding Eng as well... The majority of Shaman are not all going to be Eng and JC's.

I'm not sure the answer is downgrading slots to use lower item level gear to make up for the hit (excluding Skull of Guldan if you have one). I think due to the itemization the answer is the JC BoE ring and spell hit gems/enchants.

This is my personal gear list at this point:

[Cowl of Gul'dan]
[The Sun King's Talisman]
[Erupting Epaulets]
[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
[Garments of Crashing Shores]
[Skyshatter Bands]
[Skyshatter Gauntlets]
[Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm]
[Skyshatter Treads]
[Skyshatter Cord]
[The Lightning Capacitor]
[Hex Shrunken Head]
[Antonidas's Aegis of Rapt Concentration]
[Reign of Misery]
[Ring of Ancient Knowledge]
[Band of the Eternal Sage] (if I manage to get another Ring of Ancient Knowledge, then that is my call)
[Totem of Ancestral Guidance] conditionally [Skycall Totem]. I've been testing it a bit nowadays and it seems to actually deal same or slightly more damage than Ancestral Guidance. Will need more testing. Either case, I'll be using both.

Most gems except two will be orange. Two purple gems (stam + dmg) will go into legs to cover set bonus and at the same time allow me to get Chaotic Skyfire.

In total, this is 19 spell hit, meaning I need 5 more for cap as a Draenei. This means one orange gem with hit instead of crit or [The Skull of Gul'dan], which brings me way over the cap, but also allows me to get some more haste (in which case Hex Head would be replaced).

• Binkenstein · 04/02/08, 3:51 AM

My best in slot listing
Cowl of Cul'dan
Pendant of Sunfire or Amulet of Unfettered Magics
Erupting Epaulets
Cloak of the Illidari Council (new cloak please Blizzard!)
Garments of Crashing Shores
Skyshatter Bands
Skyshatter Gauntlets
Skyshatter Cord
Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm
Skyshatter Treads
Band of the Eternal Sage
Loop of Forged Power
Sunflare
Antonidas's Aegis of Rapt Concentration
Sextant of Unstable Currents
Hex Shrunken Head
Totem of Ancestral Guidance

Comes to a grand total (when buffed) of:
660 int
562 stam
1659 damage
41.74% crit
16.55% haste

Est dps clocks in at 1992 with a spriest, using Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst, Runed Crimson Spinel, and Potent Pyrestone. That's a 4/1 rotation, 3/1 is 1926 (but can go up to 1945 with quick lionstones. Interestingly enough is if you swap a QLS for Runed CS or Glowing SA, your dps does not change).

These are all with 7 minutes fight duration, and calculated using the SEIC beta that I've got (with help from Moshne!) which I'll try to put up by the end of the week. Most of it is working now, aside from the item comparisons tab, which needs cell references changed.

Trinket wise, both Crusade and Skull show higher dps with LB spam, but Sextant is better with a 4/1 rotation

khromey · 04/02/08, 5:50 AM

I finally hit 2k+ dps, just had to post to brag (even if the RNG was overly kind to me)

Wow Web Stats

Ramesz · 04/02/08, 6:32 AM

I've been searching for this thread for some trinket advice, but I didn't find a solid post about it. I have 1100 spelldamage(all pre BT gear, just entered BT with patch), ~34% crit, hit capped and haste rating is 60. I'd like some suggestions what trinket would be best for me, I'm currently using quag's+hex. Alternatives would be TLC, icon, and crusade aswell. And moreover, should I go for more spell haste from now on? I understand that crit is already quite low and im quite suffering without sp in my group(which happens quite often).

Ty for advice.

Kaideq · 04/02/08, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by khromey

I finally hit 2k+ dps, just had to post to brag (even if the RNG was overly kind to me)

Wow Web Stats

Holy shit that is some impressive dmg Khromey, you were a tad lucky on crits, but damn nice man.

• Binkenstein · 04/02/08, 6:39 AM

2k DPS with 2 heroisms, 4 drums of battle and 51% crit on LB is a bit hax tbh

Merari · 04/02/08, 6:58 AM

I have a pretty simple question here, I've been enhancement for a looong time... and have some good gear, but I've recently spec'd elemental and am enjoying a lot more than I thought... anyway,

I was wondering about some of the new badge items coming out, I'm not in a position to get t6 any time in the near future , but i'm sitting on over 200 badges and am wondering if i should go after the mail gear with haste, or the cloth crit gear?

tufy · 04/02/08, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Sunflare

Now that you mention it, was this baby mined from Live files yet? I know it's been on pre-2.4 lists, but I haven't seen it confirmed yet (unlike a large number of other items).

Daidalos · 04/02/08, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Are you just talking gear or including buffs in there? If you're just talking gear its not too hard really. I'd say going from full BT/MH gear to full Sunwell gear you gain like 80-100 spell damage, 20-30 spell crit and about 250+ spell haste. That is the stat we're getting ridiculous gains on. Also a lot depends on what you gemmed. I can work out the exact match later if you want, but yeah the damage increase is on the order of 5-10 tops for each piece (other than weapon), very little increase in crit and massive spell haste bonuses.

Edit: I have noticed some nice dps upgrades though. I've picked up the trash gloves from Sunwell. With that and 4p T6 and some other haste gear I managed like 1450 dps the other day on Teron with no flask on and a very bad crit rate (30%, 10% under my normal). I can totally see doing 1750+ dps on Brutallus.

Right one of things I also want to keep in mind is that due to the prevelance of haste it might be better to not gem so heavily for haste on the new sunwell items even though haste looks like the current best gem. My reasoning is that alot of people already have 100 haste or more and if they end up gaining another 150 or 200 haste it might better to gem for other things due to the diminishing returns on haste however I cannot be sure this the case till I have some hard numbers to run.

@Bink since we get no mp5 while casting from spi I'd just ignore it I don't think will is oging to much chance to get any spi regen ticks. Perhaps frumming froms felmysts will add up to a few but I see any time that I am running and cannot cast a good time to redrop totems anyways.