To the above, no idea, but I would be surprised if it couldn't.
-----
New math on the neck, and this time I'm reasonably confident in it.
Proc Duration: 10 seconds
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Proc rate: After an hour and a half of testing (casting till it goes off, waiting a minute, and testing again) I got a 20% proc rate, which if correct, is quite decent.
With my current haste setup, it comes to about a 24.8 effective spell damage. It has 37 passive + the proc = 61.8 spell damage, which with my weightings puts it slightly ahead of the [The Sun King's Talisman], and a fair bit behind [Loop of Cursed Bones]. So, its a decent neck, unless you can raid ZA, in which case, not so much. They meant well at least.
12 crit rating vs. 14 spell damage, the spell damage wins....however,
2% intellect (small amount of crit, and minor mana regen) vs. broken +crit damage mechanic won't even come close. Obviously the degree of it is going to depend on your crit rate, but I have a hard time seeing the ember even touching the Chaotic in terms of damage output. Using my gear levels, I estimate the +crit portion of the chaotic at about 30-35 spell damage, not including the +12 crit rating.
To me, the more interesting question is the [Mystical Skyfire Diamond], that on proc gives a massive amount of spell haste instead of a single hasted spell. The kicker though, is the gem requirement, requiring us to all but give up yellow sockets.
due to not liking to pot all the time I am unable to keep 3/1 rotation going even with a spriest (with potting I think I could), so I'm just LB spaming and throwing in a CL to get the clearcasting. now I started to see that I got some extra mana and am thinking about stacking up haste with new badge gear. but here's my question:
how does stacking haste with LB spam compares to stacking crit and using that mana to cast more CLs compare dps/mana wise?
tbh I don't even know where to start my theory
and I would second a question about trinkets from a few pages back, can some1 effectively rank skull, head, icon, sextant, TLC and DMC:C?
my guess would be skull>head>icon>DMC:C and sextant>TLC, though I don't know how to rank them all together.
just if needed, I'm around 1k sp.dam, 35% crit and 2%haste
Thanks for the replies. I see a lot of talk about the diff neck options we have. I am using the Veterans Pendant of Conquest with a 9 dmg ruby in it atm. I am exalted with Shattered Sun now and was wondering if that neck was worth replacing this neck with. I hope this isn't breaking any rules and don't mean it to sound like OMG what gearz should I get. I really think personally that losing the 21 crit for a dmg proc isn't that great but of course my knowledge isn't as vast as some that post in here lol.
My stats right now with just totems is 1167 spell dmg, 37.7% crit and 2% haste.
Ok I finally managed to secure some evidence concerning LO procs and resists.
Lightning Overload can proc on full resists. Here is an LO critical in my farm gear.
Lightning Overload procs will always deal damage before the actual LB itself in the combat log; not sure why and I'm not sure if it applies to CL as well but it'd be easy enough to check.
Proof of LO damage being calculated before LB in the combat log, the second LB is a non-critical Lightning Bolt.
Bink,
Was wondering if you could add the other color of gems to the a column so you can pick a red and a orangebasically instead of just rows meta, blue, red, yellow you would also have orange, purple, and green. Then you could update the gem selection with P, G, O for socket bonuses making gem selection more of an accurate factor to stats. Becuase there is some gear where I want to put a Y gem in a slot but in another need a G in another socket to get socket bonus and meta requirements.
Thanks for the replies. I see a lot of talk about the diff neck options we have. I am using the Veterans Pendant of Conquest with a 9 dmg ruby in it atm. I am exalted with Shattered Sun now and was wondering if that neck was worth replacing this neck with. I hope this isn't breaking any rules and don't mean it to sound like OMG what gearz should I get. I really think personally that losing the 21 crit for a dmg proc isn't that great but of course my knowledge isn't as vast as some that post in here lol.
My stats right now with just totems is 1167 spell dmg, 37.7% crit and 2% haste.
I'll do the test vs. the Vindicator neck, and pretend you aren't trying to min/max with Veteran's.
Vindi = 25 spell damage + 9 gem = 34 damage + 21 spell crit, if you use really liberal crit value (1:1 for SD, which is way too high), you get that neck being worth 51 spell damage, or worse than the Aldor version of the neck (and obviously, the 2nd gen is even worse.)
If you want to check the value of your crit on your mana regen which is much less straightforward you need to download a spreadsheet and look at it on basis of your gear and buffs. I value mana regen at essentially zero because I have nearly 100% access to both a ret pally and a shadowpriest, so "your mileage may vary," but I think you'd have to use some extreme crit values to beat the exalted neck, with either PVP one (but the haste one comes very close.)
------
@Bink or any other theorycrafter:
I've been trying to find a solid way to calculate the effect of Stormstrike on our damage. We've trained our rogues away from using instant poison, and deadly doesn't consume charges. Our Enh shaman uses either an FlS/ES rotation, or FlS/FrS to allow me to use them (when his threat permits.) If it was a straight, easy answer I'd already have it, and being that the sheet doesn't ask for it, I assume you haven't found one yet? Anyone having any luck with it?
I wouldn't bother with it, however, there is currently a hunter movement for high crit survival and BM hunters to start using Wind Serpents, which have a Nature attack that they use as a focus dump. The DPS gain on this is notable, but small, but has the nasty side effect of consuming SS. Rather than waving the "I'm both Ele and the GM, so 'no, you can't eat my charges,'" I'd rather have some numbers to show whether its actually worth it or not.
I'll do the test vs. the Vindicator neck, and pretend you aren't trying to min/max with Veteran's.
Vindi = 25 spell damage + 9 gem = 34 damage + 21 spell crit, if you use really liberal crit value (1:1 for SD, which is way too high), you get that neck being worth 51 spell damage, or worse than the Aldor version of the neck (and obviously, the 2nd gen is even worse.)
If you want to check the value of your crit on your mana regen which is much less straightforward you need to download a spreadsheet and look at it on basis of your gear and buffs. I value mana regen at essentially zero because I have nearly 100% access to both a ret pally and a shadowpriest, so "your mileage may vary," but I think you'd have to use some extreme crit values to beat the exalted neck, with either PVP one (but the haste one comes very close.)
------
@Bink or any other theorycrafter:
I've been trying to find a solid way to calculate the effect of Stormstrike on our damage. We've trained our rogues away from using instant poison, and deadly doesn't consume charges. Our Enh shaman uses either an FlS/ES rotation, or FlS/FrS to allow me to use them (when his threat permits.) If it was a straight, easy answer I'd already have it, and being that the sheet doesn't ask for it, I assume you haven't found one yet? Anyone having any luck with it?
I wouldn't bother with it, however, there is currently a hunter movement for high crit survival and BM hunters to start using Wind Serpents, which have a Nature attack that they use as a focus dump. The DPS gain on this is notable, but small, but has the nasty side effect of consuming SS. Rather than waving the "I'm both Ele and the GM, so 'no, you can't eat my charges,'" I'd rather have some numbers to show whether its actually worth it or not.
Bink and I have been arguing about a good way to represent storm strike but there isn't an easy answer. The math for it isn't that hard the problem is ss uptime for the number of nature attacks that eat it and the frequency of your LBs are all variables. I could write out a formula for it but what you individual again will be entirely dependant on your raid. If you just need help with the math. Math we got. But average raid up times for ss and the number of people who ss charges is really up to you and bribing othe raiders not to use up your ss charges.
Basically all you need is
(dmg in 10s / num of casts (note LO and lightning cap all count) in 10s) this gives you the average dmg per cast in 10s. then multiple the of ss charges availible to you in 10s by .2
So lets say have 1400 lightning bolt spell dmg 0 haste and no Lightning Cap. in 10s you would average (5*1.2) 6 casts. Avg LB dmg is 2647 and avg LO dmg is 1323. (2647*5+1323)/6 = 2426*(2ss charges .2 coef) = 970 additional dmg per cast.
970dmg/cast*6cast = 5822 addition dmg in 10
5822 addition dmg in 10 / 10 secs = 582 dps again.
This is the ideal though. Note that the more you cast in 10s the smaller % of your casts benefit. So in this regard it works against haste. Haste is more LB in 10s that hit for the same amount. Also if you are using a CL in your rotation the same effect since it is better dps but faster and lower dmg (assuming you have high spell dmg)
The math can be done but you need to enter the number of ss/10secs since there isn't a consensus on what the average for a raid is.
I've been trying to find a solid way to calculate the effect of Stormstrike on our damage. We've trained our rogues away from using instant poison, and deadly doesn't consume charges. Our Enh shaman uses either an FlS/ES rotation, or FlS/FrS to allow me to use them (when his threat permits.) If it was a straight, easy answer I'd already have it, and being that the sheet doesn't ask for it, I assume you haven't found one yet? Anyone having any luck with it?
I wouldn't bother with it, however, there is currently a hunter movement for high crit survival and BM hunters to start using Wind Serpents, which have a Nature attack that they use as a focus dump. The DPS gain on this is notable, but small, but has the nasty side effect of consuming SS. Rather than waving the "I'm both Ele and the GM, so 'no, you can't eat my charges,'" I'd rather have some numbers to show whether its actually worth it or not.
C/P from a post I made on our guild forums about the same issue, edited names out for descriptions;
So yeah, Stormstrike is +20% damage to the next 2 nature sources that affect the target. EnhancementShaman would rotate earth shock into his spell-order if there were no elemental shamans in the raid. They don't because it's of more benefit to me. The only other nature damage that mobs were possibly taking before was poisons from rogues on their offhand (since main gets WF) but that's infrequent given that we run 2 or 3 rogues and they usually offhand Deadly Poison, which doesn't consume Stormstrike charges.
(Actually I talked to our rogues and they occasionally Envenom when they've got a full stack if they see Stormstrike up, which can result in 10K+ crits. I can't argue with that, since that's a more effective use of the debuff.)
Stormstrike can be re-applied every 10 seconds and has 2 charges.
My average lightning bolt hits for 2000ish and crits for 4000. I have a 40% crit rate with LB. It's a 2 second cast, so assume with straight LB spam (taking Lightning Capacitor, Lightning Overload and Chain Lightning out of the equation) I get 5 spells off in the time it takes to re-apply SS. 3 of them will hit for 2000, 2 will crit for 4000, making a total of 14000 damage over 10 seconds (1400 DPS). This equates to an average of 2800 damage per cast. With SS active 2 of these casts will hit for 3360, for a total of 15120 damage over 10 seconds (1512 DPS). So Stormstrike can be said to be worth 112 DPS to my personal output in my current gear, and keep in mind it scales since Stormstrike is a percentage-based modifier.
From the WWS parses, Hunter2's serpent's Lightning Breath ability averages 179 per hit. From what Hunter1 related to me, Lightning Breath will be triggered by each of their pets roughly every 2 seconds. So 179 damage, assuming it's the same for both pets for simplicity's sake, 10 times in the period of a Stormstrike. The crit rate is 6%, which is more or less negligible when you're looking at numbers this small. So between their two pets, they do 1790 nature damage in 10 attacks over 10 seconds (179 DPS). With a Stormstrike active they do 1861 damage in 10 attacks over 10 seconds (186 DPS).
So for the loss of a Stormstrike estimated to be worth 100+ DPS to my output, their serpents put out an additional 7 DPS in nature damage, which is pretty negligible. You can almost consider the Stormstrike completely wasted.
Are they picking up 100 DPS per pet to make up for the lost raid DPS? I'm not familiar with what the output of one of these pets is compared to Hunter1's old Ravager for example. I realize in the grand scheme of things 100 DPS is pretty small when we're talking about 13,000 raid DPS on any given night, but I gotta say it's pretty disheartening to see myself put out 100+ less personal DPS with the time and effort invested in the character because of a pet choice that may result in only a minor, if any, increase to total raid DPS.
Obviously this was simplified because I was attempting to address the situation from the debuff-useage standpoint as opposed to doing a hard crunch on it's effect on my damage output. The post degenerated into flaming and personal attacks because the hunters felt I was approaching the subject to nerf their DPS. Since then 1 of the hunters has gone back to a Raptor pet.
Not everyone has a shadow priest, and ret paladins cannot justify their raid position for alliance.
Generally, an elemental will be doing just short of 2k dps at that point, and can add anywhere between 300 and 500 dps to their group from totems, as well as bringing another heroism to the raid, wipe recovery, and a temporary heal option.
I disagree with the retri paladin statement, the 80/90 od DPS difference between SOB/SOC is stupid, but by no means completely demolishes their raid viability. They're still a buff class just as shamans so the actual personal dps isn't the deciding factor.
The judgments have a pretty hefty overall impact on the raid especially in progression raids were your healing paladins normally would not have time to refresh judgments.
Bink,
Was wondering if you could add the other color of gems to the a column so you can pick a red and a orangebasically instead of just rows meta, blue, red, yellow you would also have orange, purple, and green. Then you could update the gem selection with P, G, O for socket bonuses making gem selection more of an accurate factor to stats. Becuase there is some gear where I want to put a Y gem in a slot but in another need a G in another socket to get socket bonus and meta requirements.
Possibly.
I can think of a way to do it, which would involve selects for each slot like the enchants work atm.
Then add in a M/B/R/Y section to compare with the same information on the socket bonus to check that it's satisfied, and that should do it. I think. I'll get to it at some point.
Also: beta version up now.
Re: Stormstrike. There's a 20% chance that the second charge will be eaten by LO, so we need to work out the "per charge" bonus and adjust accordingly. I don't think the first one will be, as there is a very small window between LB & LO hitting.
5 hits in a 10 second window, so 20% to one will be 5.2 hits.
So overall 1 charge gives 5.2/5 = 1.04 a 4% boost.
Logically, we'd expect 8% for two, but we need to multiply the second by the chance for LO and thus half a "cast".
Expected casts in that 10 second window is 6, one of which being a LO proc. 4/6 = 0.667, which we multiply by 5.5 to get 3.667.
So with zero haste, we'd expect a 6.667% dps gain from getting both Stormstrike charges.
[e]From a Raid DPS perspective, the personal dps output of a Ret Paladin, combined with their buffs, generally results in lower damage output than bringing another rogue, so from a Min/Max PoV, alliance can't really use them. However, this is more of a discussion for a Ret Paladin thread than this one.
Somewhere up there Bink made a comment about getting a formula for spirit and mp5 post 2.4 to more accuratly use a damage output and dps till oom formula. I found it and am posting it here.
Since reading that makes little sense to me here is my recap:
Intelect increases mp5 at a diminishing rate.
Spirit Buffs make a huge difference due to our low base spirit and high intelect.
At 300 int 10 int increases mp5 by 1.6 (w/ bases spirit)
At 450 int 10 int increases mp5 by 1.3 (w/ bases spirit)
At 450 int +50 spirit increases mp5 by 49.5
At 450 int with spirit raid buffs (kings, MotW, Spirit) 10 int increases mp5 by 2.5
It was more getting a simple way of calculating time spent outside the FSR in working out the damage done when effectively OOM, but as we shouldn't really get to that stage, I'm not going to worry about it.
From a min/max pov, one could replace all your elemental shamans with restos in order to get rid of as many holy paladins as possible. Then bring the minimal amount of holy paladins plus a ret to get the buffs you need (3). I'm really curious where you got your dismissal of ret pallies from. Have you had bad experiences with ret paladins in your raid or are not sure of what a ret pally can do for dps on alliance? Our ret pally on melee friendly fights can do between 1500-1650 dps without an enhancement shaman (we currently don't run with one atm) From what I see on parses yes horde ret pallies do more dps. But its not a big enough difference to make one of them non viable. (around 80-100 dps at T6 levels, about 150 dps with current best in game gear. That makes sense though since SoB scales much better with haste, and sunwell gear has tons of it) 1600-1800 dps (with an enhancement shaman) plus the group and raid buffs they make more than justifies their spot, imo more so than ours. Many top alliance guilds are making use of ret pallies on Brutallus, despite the SoB/SoC differences.
Basically every argument you can make for taking a ret pally out and putting a rogue in you can do the same for taking an elemental shaman out, replacing with a resto and removing a holy paladin from the raid to make room for a warlock or mage. All this of course shows is that elemental buffs are extremely weak, but if the choice is between a holy paladin, elemental shaman and rogue trio or replacing that with a resto shaman, ret pally, warlock trio (maintaining same numbers of healers and physical/ranged dps) one would take the latter every time.
Edit: I feel a bit passionate about this because if one can make the argument that alliance ret pallies are not viable, one can very well make a similar argument that elemental shamans aren't. And if we go that road I think we lose, because the math doesn't really come out in our favor there.
I'll do the test vs. the Vindicator neck, and pretend you aren't trying to min/max with Veteran's.
Vindi = 25 spell damage + 9 gem = 34 damage + 21 spell crit, if you use really liberal crit value (1:1 for SD, which is way too high), you get that neck being worth 51 spell damage, or worse than the Aldor version of the neck (and obviously, the 2nd gen is even worse.)
If you want to check the value of your crit on your mana regen which is much less straightforward you need to download a spreadsheet and look at it on basis of your gear and buffs. I value mana regen at essentially zero because I have nearly 100% access to both a ret pally and a shadowpriest, so "your mileage may vary," but I think you'd have to use some extreme crit values to beat the exalted neck, with either PVP one (but the haste one comes very close.)
I bought the Exalted SS neck to try it out and wow it is really nice. It seems like it procs everytime the CD is up. Can be a bit annoying though as I have found out it can proc when you try to eat/drink and won't allow you to sit down and takes a food away still haha.
With regards to the hunters eating stormstrike problem. I had a massive discussion with one of our hunters a few weeks back when he started using his wind serpant ( Trogdor) in raids. We did some fairly basic maths on the whole thing, and basically, the gain he gets from using a windseperant over the 2nd best hunter dps pet V the gain i get on my personal dps (which varies dependent on what eats the charge) is greater.
The wind serpant for a hunter is just that damn good.
That then multiplies to an even greater gain for the raid when you introduce a second hunter with a second serpant (which we often have in raids)
On another note, i saw it mentioned a few pages back, but i was wondering if its possible to have totem of ancestral guidance switched in for every chain lightening cast and then have skycall switched back on the next lightning bolt cast and what that macro would look like..?
Obviously I would stick to ancestral for herosim Lightning bolt spam, but being as that skycall only works on lightning bolts, i thought this might be worth a shot,
Here is a comparison I made between the new armor drops from the Sunwell and the old Tier 6 and "Best-In-Slot" gear from BT and Hyjal. I was attempting to look at just pure dps stats so I ignored Stam, Int, and spell hit. It's not a perfect comparison obviously so don't nit pick too much but I read a few pages back someone asking for a comparison so hopefully this will do and will be easy enough to understand.
Almost forgot to add, I assumed each item was gemed with Reckless Pyrestones in Red and Yellow slots and Forceful Seaspray Emeralds for Blue slots. Meta sockets weren't counted as they'd be the same in each helm.
Key
1 Spell Damage = 1 EP
1 Haste Rating = 1.25 EP
1 Spell Crit Rating = .75 EP
Garment of Crashing Shores - 181.5
Hauberk of Whirling Fury - 139 (-42.5 EP)
Skyshatter Breastplate - 118 (-63 EP)
Gauntlets of the Ancient Shadowmoon - 114
Skyshatter Gauntlets - 79.75 (-34.25 EP)
Best Original Tier 6 In Order (Compared to Same Slot Items)
Gloves
Shoulder
Helm
Chest
Legs
Worst New Tier 6 (Compared to Same Slot Items)
Belt
Bracer
Boots
So the smallest upgrade from old Tier 6 to new Sunwell drop are the Gloves, while the worst upgrade from old BT / Hyjal / Other piece and new Tier 6 is the Belt.
What spell damage and crit percent do you want to be able to maintain before you start stacking spell haste or with 2.4 is spell haste the new best thing in the world of elemental shaman?
What spell damage and crit percent do you want to be able to maintain before you start stacking spell haste or with 2.4 is spell haste the new best thing in the world of elemental shaman?
Well, Hippie, that's a tough question depending on encounter, gear level, group setup and spell rotation. generally, you'll want about 1000-1100 +dmg and 25% crit from gear before stacking on haste at BT level gear, but that number can heavily vary.
Originally Posted by Handyhoof
I modified my Skycall sim to run with a 4/1 rotation and let it go for and hour and a half.
The uptime I got for Energized, with 0 initial Haste, was 59.46%
Well, I specifically designed my own spreadsheets to fast compare Ancestral Guidance and Skycall. The whole thing turned into complete spreadsheets after I realized that I have to include mana regen, raid buffs, JoW gain, etc. into it as well if I wanted good results, then expanded it, allowing me fast swap of a single item to see its bonus in current gear setup.
The interesting part, though, is still Skycall. If my calculations are correct, it should be up around 57% of the time in a CL-4LB rotation (note: this number was calculated from statistical chance that a proc appears in the next 10 seconds; - until proven wrong, of course :p) and even 67% of the time with LB spam. So, at low health, Ancestral Guidance will win, but as haste begins to make impact, Skycall becomes better and better. At my gear level (8% haste), it already gives me 6 dps more in 4-1 rotation than Ancestral Guidance would.
What's even more of a surprise, LB spam with Skycall is only 3,7% behind 4-1 with Ancestral Guidance (and 4,0% behind Skycall 4-1) at a considerably lower mana cost. Given full mana regen and a shadow priest, LB spam can deal nearly 2x as much damage than 4-1 with same mana pool (on a side note, best mana efficiency goes to LB spam with Ancestral Guidance, of course, with no less than 14% more damage done overall, given the fight is long enough). The numbers don't include temporary boosters such as Bloodlust, Drums of Battle, Misery and similar yet, but I plan on including them once I'm done with initial part (still need to add bonuses from MH ring, TLC and Gul'dan to get exact numbers).
Last edited by tufy : 04/07/08 at 5:10 AM.
Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.
From the first two boss fights logged last night, I'm looking at a 30% uptime for skycall, but that wouldn't account for rebuffs.
However, I'm going to work on a different calculation to see the average haste value. Basically, I'm going to look at the amount of haste it would take to match a haste proc for # of casts per minute.
From the first two boss fights logged last night, I'm looking at a 30% uptime for skycall, but that wouldn't account for rebuffs.
Well, what I did was take a statistical chance that a cast has the buff based on 10 second timer and 15% proc chance (note: cast needs to only get haste in the beginning, not throughout the full duration of the casting). The killer here is bolt flying time, as it's likely your skycall will run out and you'll be casting new LB while the LB flying towards target will already proc it. This will cause you to lose buff time, meaning you get less possible casts off. In the end, I took a logical estimate of half a second travel time and deducted that from casted LB. It's a killer calculation, though :p
Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.
04/03/08, 5:36 PM
Similar Threads
