Kasi

Yeah, and since people right now don't have a huge amount of haste on their gear it is really pushing everything in favor of having haste. However in a couple months once people have 4-5 or more pieces of haste gear from sunwell plus the old stuff, I think its going to push back the other way with the totem. Once you get to like 350 passive haste rating, spell damage will become more valuable and I think the AG with CL/LB rotations will win out in the end.

 

draconis0101

My first post on the site. First off, let me say that I absolutely love this site. For the most part, I understand the math and the formulas even if I dont know how to read them all. But I've come across a problem. Most of the people are already in t6 and you know whats where and what to get/use. I'm currently raiding mags/tk and za with gruuls/kara on farm easily. Obviously I'm an elemental shaman and my avg dps is bout 1100 or so. I'm coming across the problem of choosing spell crit/hit vs haste. I have the stormsong kilt, t4 shoulders, t4 gloves, hurricane boots and eng goggles as well as the netherstrike chest piece. Does the math show that I should be wearing my haste shoulders and chest piece instead? My biggest problem though is my trinkets. I can't choose which two to use out of Zi'Ri's gift, Quag's eye or Airmans ribbon. Hopefully, if it ever drops, the nexus horn will be joining those. So any help is greatly appreciated and I look forward to more shaman information added to the site.

 

• Binkenstein

Obviously I need to put it in big flashing neon letters or something

 

draconis0101

Ah my bad mate. Was just trying to figure out how to help the guild out to my maximum potential. I noticed a couple pages back they were going to test the eye out for its haste rating. Hows that test going? We did gruul/mag tonight and it only proc'd 3 times to my knowledge the whole night. I'm thinking something more constant will win out.

 

Chim

Might I suggest if you wish to benefit your guild to its fullest, re-gem.

Spell pen and Mp5 on gems = No.

 

draconis0101

Correct, I found out that you can fit any gem in any socket. What is the most beneficial for a blue socket so I can maintain my meta? I'm currently re-gemming to all potent nobles and replacing them all with heroic gems as I find them.

 

Chado

Bink, any plans on making another shamstats? sorry if you said something about it already, I couldn't find it in any posts. It was pretty damn useful and I'd love to see another one.

 

innocent

- Haste rating fasten CL and LB by the same percentage.
- CL itself does more damage per second (understand damage per time spent casting) than LB.

I understand the lag factor but considering these two statements, mathematically, whenever you cast a chain lightning instead of a lightning bolt: it will increase your overall dps.
Respecting or not a 1/3 cycle.

Unless of course your haste is enought to drop CL under one second.


Using LB spam obvisouly help to maximise Skycoller's uptime.
Tho i dont see how 60ish% uptime on 100 haste could beat 85spellpower.


I wish i was wrong on all that by the way.
I strongly believe mana IS an issue for an elem shaman, or at least should be an issue.

1- We'r a class that should do fine without a shadowpriest, destro warlocks are probably the only class that can avoid ToHit cap and so are those we can buff the most. Some will argue that they use SP in warlock groups (or in every group) but I doupt its optimal. Totem of wrath is pretty useless for the shadowpriest himself compared to manatide by the way.
2- If you succeed running a 1/3 rotation (or whatever cast_CL_when_up rotation depending on your haste) without SP or pots, I guess you just have too much crit.


PS: I'd be glad if someone could spend time on the maths over exalted shattered sun Scryer neck.

 

Gabnakh

I usually do a LB/CL rotation (unless it's an encounter where mana is a problem... which is a minority). I only started using Haste a couple of weeks ago, and before that, I found a 3/1 rotation sometimes problematic. From time to time my CL would clip, sometimes because of a LO proc on CL (seems to reset the CD to 6 seconds, so i'ts in fact a little bit over 6 seconds after firing the first CL). sometimes for no apparent reason (probably some issue with lag). When running with haste, I find it easier to keep a CL-Rotation, since there usually aren't any problems with the cl cd using a 4/1 rotation. So with haste gear I find it actually easier to keep up a cl rotation. As long as CL has a casttime of over 1s, I find it useful. Maybe it would be a little bit different using skycall totem.
Using my stat weighting, skycall gives about the same amount of damage as astral guidance, so I'm running with the latter. When we're at Brutallus (currentyl working on Kalecgos, we haven't been farming Illidan for very long), I'll probably play around with some combinations of gear to maximize my dps, but before that, I'll probably stick to my current setup.

 

whave

I noticed something similar about 3/1, but could not observer the reason behind it (like you suggested it's due to LO proc on CL):

Sometimes when I'm supermashing the LB button, I'm casting absolutely continuously, but after the 3rd one, when CL cooldown should be exactly ready (and if there's lag I should be even a bit late, so this also means 'built-in stopcasting' works very efficiently), my chaincasting stops for like 0.1-0.2 seconds. But this is not always the case, most of the time it remains fluent.

Of course, the above is with 0 haste, that's why it surprises me. I might try to fraps it once.

 

Graze

I'm not a math wiz, but I decied to test the neck for an hour or two on Dr.Boom. Quite a few 2-3 minute tests (No buffs, just spamming LB at different speeds) and I would value the procc to be about 10 dps. -_-
Testing done with recount damage meter. (X damage / (Y minutes * 60) = DPS)

It proccs about once a minute, critting quite often but as it only multiplies by 1.5 it's not much. It doesn't scale with +dmg, possibly with +critt from gear. It's crittical hits does NOT procc Clearcasting but it does procc Electrical charges on TLC. I did not observe any proccs of LO casts.

I've also seen it procc multiple times while refreshing Water Shield/Totems/EM, this might be a pain as it would be very easy to ninja pull a boss - but tbh this seems like the only good use for this neck.

Edited for clarity.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

innocent

One per minute was quite what i observed too.

Yesterday over a Naj to Illidari BT run i had:
54 000 damage of arcane bolt for 6 000 000 damage dealt by LB/CL/Flameshock

I dont realise what it means in term of itemvalue but it sounds quite not amazing.
I did not notice any proc on WS/Totem (at least no ninja pull) but wasnt paying attention every single seconds in four hours.

 

Kumiko

On Quag's Eye:
Working from a 10% proc rate, and a 24sec internal cooldown (from start of buff) and a 2 second cast time, we can assign it a certain amount of haste rating.
There are a few ways of calculating its (the proc effect) effectiveness:

The first is to multiply the haste rating given (320) by the amount of time the buff lasts (6 seconds) divided by the average amount of time in between procs. 24 second cooldown + 10*2sec cast =44 seconds. This gives 320*6/44=43.63 haste

The second way is find how many extra casts you get. At 320 haste, we have a cast time of about 1.6 seconds, meaning in the 6 second period, we can start 4 casts, completing them in 6.4 seconds. The normal amount of time this would take is 8 seconds, so we get 1-0.4/2 (=0.8) more casts in a 44 second period. 44/2=22 casts normally, so (22.8/22)-1 is our decimal amount for more casting, which comes out to about .036 or 3.6%. 3.6*15.7haste rating gives us our effective haste rating, about 56.5

This trinket gets even better with more spell haste gear, the addition of chain lightning, and a sometimes reported proc rate of 13%.

Anyone who wants to take a crack at it, feel free to modify the math above to include existing haste rating, damage, alternate spell rotations, etc. to refine the rating or come up with a dps value for the trinket.

 

KrietoR

does quag eye procs of from TLC or even LO?

if yes we might see that proc rate going up skyhigh, i mean enough passive haste + LO + TLC procs, would make u be throwing bolts like a machine gun, increasing the proc chance of Q-eye.

man i get to get my hands on a quag eye to test it myself

 

Daidalos

I disagree with a perfect LB/CL rotation being impossible. With the unavoidable haste on sunwell gear a 4LB 1 CL rotation will be required and I have never found it difficult to maintain (I already have alot of ZA haste gear and always use 4 LB 1CL). That being said. I do think that if switching to destro pots instead of mana pots for LB spam allows you to dps for the same amount of time (i.e. you have to mana pot to maintain your CLs) then LB spam is superior. I would also note that skycall is with a 60% uptime a stat weight of 1.45 DEP for haste puts it very even with Ancestral (87 vs 85).



For me the question boils down to dps and sustainability.
Highest dps to lowest (using best in slot sunwell stats and constant 80 haste battle drum rotation):
I assume 150ms between casts and calculate dps for the entire rotation by total dmg/ total time. 150ms is added to the last cast as well.
1. 4 LB 1CL using destro pots + haste drums : 2201dps : approx sustainable time with spirest and JoW 200s
2. 4 LC 1CL with mana pot +haste drums : 2170 dps: approx w/ sp and JoW 334s
3. LB spam with destro + haste drums : 2149dps : approx w/ sp and JoW 1140s
4. LB spam with mana pot + haste drums : 2115 dps: approx w/ sp and JoW infin

My dps estimates are fairly rough so don't take the dps at actual values (trinkets were just added in as spell dmg) but more for getting an idea of the dps difference between the different rotations.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

draconis0101

Got a quick question. i see some of you are running extended time periods of spamming LB using a program or some such. What is it and where can I get it? I'm referencing a few pages back where a member cast a rank 3 LB for I think it was an hour or more. I would gladly do this as I'm a construction worker and have the rest of the winter off and have plenty of free time to contribute to the stats here.

 

Chaostheoryx

150ms between casts? Go to Dr. Boom, gear with 0 haste (and take off TLC/Skycall) and spam LB, record the combat log. Remove LO procs. Calculate your average interval between casts. Here's one I just did:

16:47:02.772 0:00:01.987 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1801 Nature damage
16:47:04.759 0:00:02.019 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1877 Nature damage
16:47:06.778 0:00:02.033 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3895 Nature damage
16:47:08.811 0:00:01.989 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3836 Nature damage
16:47:10.800 0:00:02.005 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1828 Nature damage
16:47:12.805 0:00:01.959 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1843 Nature damage
16:47:14.764 0:00:02.053 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1846 Nature damage
16:47:16.817 0:00:02.018 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3897 Nature damage
16:47:18.835 0:00:01.950 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3917 Nature damage
16:47:20.785 0:00:02.066 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1621 Nature damage
16:47:22.851 0:00:01.918 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1642 Nature damage
16:47:24.769 0:00:01.988 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3550 Nature damage
16:47:26.757 0:00:02.025 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1645 Nature damage
16:47:28.782 0:00:01.981 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3519 Nature damage
16:47:30.763 0:00:02.002 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3477 Nature damage
16:47:32.765 0:00:02.015 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1626 Nature damage
16:47:34.780 0:00:01.988 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3553 Nature damage
16:47:36.768 0:00:02.006 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt hits Dr. Boom for 1696 Nature damage
16:47:38.774 Chaostheoryx's Lightning Bolt crits Dr. Boom for 3420 Nature damage

Average interval = 2.000 seconds.

I don't see why latency should be a factor in our DPS calculations. The only people affected by latency would be those that use a castsequence macro or attempt to swap relics during their LB/CL rotation (thus waiting for the cast to complete client-side). This would disallow the use of Blizzard's spell queuing mechanism.
Caveat: This is all derived purely from my own observations, nothing authoritative here.

 

Daidalos

Hm last time I tried I was averging about 2.1-2.2s per cast. Are you spamming or waiting for the window at the end of the cast? I haven't tested this in awhile but my testing was done after 2.3 so I assumed it hadn't changed. I'll have to give this a try if other people can comfirm that would work as well.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

innocent

I'v been running a few test on these a part of the afternoon with this gear:

No buff,
no totem,
no pots,
all test running 2 minutes,
spam lightningbolt rank 12,
target = Dr Boom.

Skycaller:
1269dps
1289dps
1289dps
1302dps

Ancestral:
1322dps
1281dps
1251dps
1246dps

Edit:
Shadenbonus = spellpower
Kritisch = guess what? Spell critical
Tempowertung = Spell haste
(at least i hope so, my german is terrible)

 

• Binkenstein

An updated version is in the works.

Regarding rotations, I've got a spreadsheet (left it at work) comparing LB and LB/CL. At most, I'm seeing approx 65 dps increase for LB/CL rotation over LB spam with the same stats. I'm going to adjust it slightly to show a % difference rather than an absolute (or probably just add it in).

 

Chaostheoryx

Spamming. I use AutoHotKey (autohotkey.net) and have it send "2" to WoW every 5ms while my actual "2" key is held down. The "2" key is bound to my LB macro (with trinkets and whatnot). The same is accomplished by the Logitech 'G' keyboards, albeit for an extra $80. For anyone interested, my '6' key is CL, and that one sends '662' every 5ms. So if I want a 4:1 rotation (I have 100+ haste) I just hold down the '6' key.

Now I'm not saying that this is required to achieve a 0ms interval. All one would need to do (if I understand this correctly) is send their LB key-up event anytime after the GCD (whether this is a fixed 1.5s or adheres to the new dynamic GCD I don't know) while their spell is completing its cast, and a new spellcast event will be queued on the server. So if your latency is 300ms, and you release at precisely T+1.500, it'd take 150ms to reach the server and sit in the queue from T+1.650 until your cast is complete on the server side which should be at T+1.850 and begin the new cast while yours is finishing up. So you've got (1.850 - 1.650) a 200ms window to send your key-up event to avoid any delay in the next cast. Lower latencies would have a larger window.

Edit: The above is untrue. There is no spell queue mechanism. The actual mechanism is a little more complex:
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t18254-2...ing_mechanics/

(This is, indirectly, also an answer to Draconis's recent post.)

 

• Daler

So all this recent talk about haste has sparked my curiosity something fierce. I decided to try to work out my own numbers from scratch. I posted this on my guild forum, but I'm frankly at a loss at the conclusions my numbers lead to, which generally means I screwed up somewhere. But I have no clue where. So I'm going to post the math and please, somebody, tell me where I fucked this up.

Given how far off these numbers are from the expectations from Binkenstein et al.'s work, I can't but think that I'm approaching this in a completely incorrect way. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

• Binkenstein

The first value seems way off, but that 111.4 value seems roughly correct based on what I've been looking at.

 

tl.

@daler: You actually figured out when 4/1 or LB spam are better versus 3/1 without haste, while keeping same sp.dam and crit. So what you actually did is say:
I do more damage if I have 100 more haste and spam LB then using 3/1 with same stats. Where are you going to get 100 haste for free? :P

 

Nizari

Is there any maths on TLC since the 2.5 hidden cool down?

My main concern is trinkets. I have pretty most (except Skull and Hex) and looking towards stacking damage trinkets come more haste.
If the internal cool down on Quags eye is actually 30 seconds I have it and Hex as the two best trinkets for stacking haste (excluding skull which I will never get) for shaman, with crusader close behind.

I still think Totem of Ancestral Guidance trumps the rest. But... haven't done any maths on the matter.

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/419258FqvWj.png