The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 65

Mirranda · 04/15/08, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Please tell me you're joking when you say this. Not only does it give you 2% hit per point, but it reduces threat by 3/3/4% which is something we should never ignore. The only hit talents I consider "optional" are the ones in the restoration tree.

Also: 2nd place trinket imo is Hex Shrunken Head

I have no threat issues in my guild, even pushing 2000 matted DPS. Thus the consideration of changing that talent. The other option was the resto talent as you mentioned. I also have the Hex Shrunken Head and until recently the next best TLC, which I hear is replaced by quite a few trinkets now.

So as clarification, I mean to replace TLC with Skull pairing Skull with Hex Head.

And in terms of trying to maximize the stat points from the Skull, taking points out of one of the two hit talents (Resto probably over the Elemental one, but unsure where to move it in Resto).

• Binkenstein · 04/15/08, 4:11 AM

With best in slot gear from Sunwell, you will need the extra +hit.
There is zero from sunwell gear.

• Binkenstein · 04/15/08, 8:36 AM

Also: individual gem selection: 66% done. Selection & socket bonuses are in, just need to link the individual gem stats back to the item stats.

I'll try to update the item submission form soon as well, so we can get all the new 2.4 stuff added in and out of the way (aside from Mu'ru/KJ gear, but the datamined stuff will be added as "unknown" boss in SW)

Thundaballs · 04/15/08, 11:04 AM

[Cowl of Gul'dan] TBA Kil'jaeden
[Pendant of Sunfire] 70 Sunwell trash
[Erupting Epaulets] TBA Eredar Twins (from [Equilibrium Epaulets])
[Cloak of the Illidari Council] 45 Illidari Council
[Garments of Crashing Shores] TBA TBA (from [Garments of Serene Shores])
[Skyshatter Bands] 70 Kalecgos
[Skyshatter Gauntlets] 50 Azgalor
[Skyshatter Cord] 70 Brutallus
[Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm] 85 Felmyst
[Skyshatter Treads] 70 Felmyst
[Band of the Eternal Sage] Quest
[Ring of Ancient Knowledge] 50 Black Temple trash
[The Skull of Gul'dan] 60 Illidan Stormrage
[Hex Shrunken Head] 0 Hex Lord Malacress
[Antonidas's Aegis of Rapt Concentration] 60 Archimonde
[Totem of Ancestral Guidance] 25 Teron Gorefiend
[Sunflare] TBA Kil'jaeden or [Reign of Misery] 160 Brutallus (Sunflare is preferred, but without any definitive stats, I couldn't do all the maths involved. All the maths are based off of [Reign of Misery])
________________________________________
DKP = 815 (2 items still need priced)
________________________________________
Bonuses
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 1311.
Equip: Improves spell critical strike rating by 353. (15.99%)
Equip: Decreases the threat generated by 2%.
Equip: Improves spell haste rating by 300. (19.03%)
Equip: Restores 18 mana per 5 sec.
Equip: Restores 4 health per 5 sec.
Equip: Improves spell hit rating by 58. (4.60%)
Equip: 3% Increased Critical Damage
Equip: Increases damage done by Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt by up to 85.
Equip: Your offensive spells have a chance on hit to increase your spell damage by 95 for 10 secs.
T6 2pc Bonus Whenever you have an air totem, an earth totem, a fire totem, and a water totem active at the same time, you gain 15 mana per 5 sec, 35 spell critical strike rating, and up to 45 spell damage.
T6 4pc Bonus Increases the damage dealt by your Lightning Bolt ability by 5%.
Use: Tap into the power of the skull, increasing spell haste rating by 175 for 20 seconds.
Use: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 211 for 20 seconds.
________________________________________

Gems used:
[Reckless Pyrestone] - 4
[Runed Crimson Spinel] - 6
[Don Julio's Heart] - 1
[Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst] - 2

Enchants
[Glyph of Arcane Power]
[Greater Inscription of the Orb] or [Greater Inscription of Discipline]
[Formula: Enchant Cloak - Subtlety]
[Formula: Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Formula: Enchant Bracer - Spellpower]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Major Spellpower]
[Runic Spellthread]
[Formula: Enchant Boots - Vitality]
[Formula: Enchant Weapon - Major Spellpower]
[Formula: Enchant Shield - Intellect]

This will give an overall cast time of Lightning bolt to be 1.62 seconds, and Chain Lightning of 1.22.

Crit seems a bit low, but for the haste you pick up, I believe its worth it. Overall crit would be about : 28.57 + 10 from talents, so 38.57% (I THINK, a little help here on the math would be sweet)

For EJ: I'm aware DKP prices are useless here, although I made this post on my class forums, saw the discussion of gear wanted from Sunwell, and I believe this to be the best set-up for end-game elemental shaman. The math is also using [Reign of Misery] as opposed to the supposed Sunflare off of Kil'jaeden. Also, I am scryer, so its using the [Greater Inscription of the Orb] as well. Gemming I'm not 100% sure on what I will go with as it seems I will be dropping crit.

Any suggestions?

Mox · 04/15/08, 12:18 PM

Are are ignoring socket bonuses with those gem selections? I see 10 yellow sockets but you only have 4 reckless pyrestones? Putting a runed crimson in some of those yellow sockets is worth less than using a reckless + socket bonus.

Altho that raises the question to whats best for a yellow socket, Quick lionseye vs Reckless Pyrestone?

Moshne · 04/15/08, 12:41 PM

The haste to damage ratio is not a static value, with obtainable gear in game, I've set the value from 1.17 to close to 1.4 (entering Hyjal vs. all best in slot.) These numbers are arrived at assuming mana is a non-issue, and using a CL/LB rotation (which is looking atm to not be optimal.) Once you break the 1.2:1 threshold, Spinels cease to be your best red gem, and the Dawnstones become the best yellow. I have not hopped on the Lionseye bandwagon just yet, but it doesn't seem like you can go wrong with Reckless Pyrestones in every Red/Yellow slot at T6 level. (Again, assuming you have access to mana priests and/or JoW.) While there is a point where the Spinels will be slightly better, assuming its gear you are keeping you will quickly grow into them, while your other casters/hunters will never outgrow their need for Spinels, and your not consuming them will probably benefit the guild in the long run (this is less of a concern with the badge vendor gems, but still a consideration.)

Mox · 04/15/08, 2:07 PM

So in short, at sunwell level gear (i.e advancing from 5/5 T6 to 4/8 T6 + sunwell random pieces) the best gems are +10 haste for yellow and +5 haste/+6 dmg for red, and ofc any blues (not that there is any) should be +6 dmg/7 stam for meta requirements.

Thanks, I had a feeling about the spinels so didn't want to waste any when like you say theres high demand from other classes/specs.

• Binkenstein · 04/15/08, 4:15 PM

I'm currently going 12dmg, 10haste, 5haste/7stam, but I shall revisit that in a week or two when I get SEIC into a properly working state.

Hmm... need the stat ep values displayed on the front page, with a normalisation listed as well.

missiletoad · 04/15/08, 6:01 PM

For what it's worth here's a bit of field testing on Kalecgos with what I have available in haste gear (gear #2) and standard dmg/crit items (gear #1) the week previous. "Haste is good" being no new thing, perhaps some will like to see a little applied theory. Buff conditions were the same. Shh about our number of Kalecgos tries last night, we noobed it up.

Gear #1 differences: Vindicator's Pendant of Conquest, Chestguard of Relentless Storms, Stormwrap, The Lightning Capacitor, Totem of Ancestral Guidance. (29 haste rating)

Kalecgos - April 8th

Gear #2 differences: Loop of Cursed Bones, Hauberk of Furious Elements, Aftershock Waistguard, Quagmirran's Eye, Skycall Totem. (125 + 320 + 100 haste rating)

Kalecgos - April 14th

Hopefully this week I can get a clean Illidan kill for comparison's sake.

• Binkenstein · 04/15/08, 6:57 PM

Kalecgos and Illidan would be bad comparison fights.

Naj, Supremus, Teron to some extent, Rage and Anetheron would be the best T6 bosses to make comparisons on, as these are the most "stationary" fights. Brut would be another good one to test dps comparisons on.

missiletoad · 04/15/08, 9:04 PM

True indeed. I'm not even sure WWS correctly grabs all the Kalecgos data between the two phased worlds. The two WWSs were intended to be a with/without haste comparison on a random boss rather than a dps benchmark. Brutallus is a week or two away, as we're leisurely learning the encounter while we farm BT (to paraphrase one of our raid leads, blasting through T6 content left us killing Illidan while geared like hobos). Hyjal may come late this week, but I am looking forward to playing around with combat logs there.

innocent · 04/16/08, 4:26 AM

Naj, (...), Teron to some extent

I am having huge pushback issues on Naj and Teron, as on Malacrass. I even noticed that wearing 4 S3 pieces (even nerfed) and begging for a ES was incresing my dps. I'm not sure how much of a "dps test" it can be.
Supremus is very much based on luck, i'd say even less static than Illidan or Kalec.
Side note: the gain from using flame shock is pretty noticable on pushback events.

PS: Is there any mystical side effect that I missed on having stupid mp5 all over our sets?
Blizzard seems to stick to that idea (T6 boots and belt).

whave · 04/16/08, 4:55 AM

How about testing in RoS p1?

everwatch · 04/16/08, 6:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mox

So in short, at sunwell level gear (i.e advancing from 5/5 T6 to 4/8 T6 + sunwell random pieces) the best gems are +10 haste for yellow and +5 haste/+6 dmg for red, and ofc any blues (not that there is any) should be +6 dmg/7 stam for meta requirements.

Thanks, I had a feeling about the spinels so didn't want to waste any when like you say theres high demand from other classes/specs.

IMO all gem slots should use a Quick Lionseye except:
1) Meta requirements: Forceful Seaspray (and 1 Glowing Shadowsong in T6.5) (blue) and Reckless Pyrestone (red)
2) Socket bonus is worthwhile (just a +2 spell crit/dmg bonus alone would justify using a Reckless Pyrestone over a Quick Lionseye).

Special note: Note that out of the Sunwell mail caster loot, only the gloves have 1 blue socket. Also note all of the socket bonuses from other pieces make it to where using Reckless Pyrestones in the red sockets = more total damage. Ideally to meet a 2 blue meta requirement you'd use a Forceful Seaspray in the gloves, and then use a Glowing Shadowsong in any red socket of your choice. Those should be the only 2 blue gems you use. Forceful is superior to the Glowing, but since there is only one blue socket, you use one Glowing as well (the socket bonus netting more dps that way).

everwatch · 04/16/08, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by Kaideq

Originally Posted by Daidalos
I disagree with a perfect LB/CL rotation being impossible. With the unavoidable haste on sunwell gear a 4LB 1 CL rotation will be required and I have never found it difficult to maintain (I already have alot of ZA haste gear and always use 4 LB 1CL). That being said. I do think that if switching to destro pots instead of mana pots for LB spam allows you to dps for the same amount of time (i.e. you have to mana pot to maintain your CLs) then LB spam is superior. I would also note that skycall is with a 60% uptime a stat weight of 1.45 DEP for haste puts it very even with Ancestral (87 vs 85).

For me the question boils down to dps and sustainability.
Highest dps to lowest (using best in slot sunwell stats and constant 80 haste battle drum rotation):
I assume 150ms between casts and calculate dps for the entire rotation by total dmg/ total time. 150ms is added to the last cast as well.
1. 4 LB 1CL using destro pots + haste drums : 2201dps : approx sustainable time with spirest and JoW 200s
2. 4 LC 1CL with mana pot +haste drums : 2170 dps: approx w/ sp and JoW 334s
3. LB spam with destro + haste drums : 2149dps : approx w/ sp and JoW 1140s
4. LB spam with mana pot + haste drums : 2115 dps: approx w/ sp and JoW infin

My dps estimates are fairly rough so don't take the dps at actual values (trinkets were just added in as spell dmg) but more for getting an idea of the dps difference between the different rotations.

With a SP and JoW up I use a 4/1 rotation using FS (yes Flame Shock) in between. I cycle up a new one as the old one falls off. I notice a marked dps increase and mana usage increase, however with a SP and JoW both I can maintain this in raids. Occasionally I may need to back off of FS if something goes wrong, and if the SP dies then things really change. But as long as he stays going, and JoW is up, I'm fine. We killed Brutallus once and I only did 1775 dps, but then I made some mistakes and did die and have to repop at the very end on the enrage. I've peaked in the 1800's on successful kills of other bosses (not counting ones where you'd be buffed or the fight is abnormally short, ie giving skewed results). Still struggling to improve something to get into the 1900's consistently, though we rarely have had an Enhance (ie SS debuff).

◊ Embar · 04/16/08, 6:34 AM

Originally Posted by everwatch

With a SP and JoW up I use a 4/1 rotation using FS (yes Flame Shock) in between. I cycle up a new one as the old one falls off. I notice a marked dps increase and mana usage increase, however with a SP and JoW both I can maintain this in raids.

My quick mental math might be faulty, but exactly how is FS more DPS than a hasted CL/LB which has an increased crit chance and a chance to proc Overload?

Likainen · 04/16/08, 9:29 AM

I have a newly leveled Elemental Shaman, that right now is geared in wellfare epics (with suboptimal enchants or even +10 stam kits) from PvP farming. Unbuffed he has 761 spell dmg and 20% crit, running with a standard 41/0/20 build.

After a bit of searching and some failed attempts, I managed to find a guild that runs Karazhan/Gruul constantly and almost has Kara on farm status. Yesterday I got a spot and the bosses we did were Prince (kill after 1 wipe) & Nightbane (training tries). Being my first raid with my Shaman, it was extremely fun and ended with me on top and a hunter close behind, but I noticed a great threat issue during the run, especially on boss fights. Consumables I used where not the best as well (adept's elixir, elixir of draenic wisdom, mana pots on CD on boss fights), since I was not sure if it was worth it to use a flask.

On both Prince fights, our 2 melee died fast, leaving only ranged dps to do the job, so it took longer than normal. Even though I used Tranquil Air Totem during phase 1, I was threat capped almost from start and for an rough 25% of the fight I had to stop dpsing to avoid pulling aggro. On the actual kill, I kept Tranquil Air up for the entire fight, skiping Wrath of Air entirely.

Same happened with the Nightbane tries. I always waited for tank to build aggro (sometimes even a bit after he had 5 sunders up) but when I actually started dpsing it took too short to get at 3-5% under tank on KTM.

So, my actual questions are these:

1. Will it always be like this? Is this normal or the tank was not doing an optimal work?

2. Is there anything I should do to slow down the process of getting threat capped? Any general rules of thumb I am not aware of ?

I am well aware that this thread mostly covers issues, problems and theorycrafting of raiding Elemental Shamans at the T5/6 level of progression, but I feel I should get the grip of this from an early stage, since things might become harder as I gear up.

Any replies will be greatly appreciated

Degruune · 04/16/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Likainen

1. Will it always be like this? Is this normal or the tank was not doing an optimal work?

2. Is there anything I should do to slow down the process of getting threat capped? Any general rules of thumb I am not aware of ?

One big question comes to mind:
Did you have a paladin?
If you had, did you have Blessing of Salvation?

An elemental shaman will always suffer from high threat, though, Blessing of Salvation should cover that for most parts, and sometimes (very rare) I drop a tranquil air totem to decrease threat output even more for a while before switching back to Wrath.

Also in general, when "starting" Karazhan, you'll be one of the highest DPS'ers there. And it could be that your tanks gear isn't quite up for your output just yet. Don't worry, we'll drop substantially in output from there on

Daidalos · 04/16/08, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Embar

My quick mental math might be faulty, but exactly how is FS more DPS than a hasted CL/LB which has an increased crit chance and a chance to proc Overload?

Haste applies (for this purpose of interleaving) to FS as well and that is assuming full stack of fire vulnerability and CoE. Without those its not better dps. If you don't have fire mages and CoE up from locks don't do it basically.

Gabnakh · 04/16/08, 11:44 AM

Binkenstein, in case you haven't gotten around yet to test the cl+lo cd, I finally found some time to do a little test on Dr. Boom:

4/16 16:19:01.250  SPELL_CAST_START,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8
4/16 16:19:02.890  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004CEC055B23,"Boom Bot",0xa48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,722,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:02.890  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004CEC055B6A,"Boom Bot",0xa48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,2184,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:02.890  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004F3C046B41,"Dr. Boom",0x10a48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,2958,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:03.343  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004CEC055B23,"Boom Bot",0xa48,45302,"Chain Lightning",0x8,385,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:03.343  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004CEC055B6A,"Boom Bot",0xa48,45302,"Chain Lightning",0x8,1036,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:03.343  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004F3C046B41,"Dr. Boom",0x10a48,45302,"Chain Lightning",0x8,1562,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:09.312  SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,"Not yet recovered"
4/16 16:19:09.781  SPELL_CAST_START,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8
4/16 16:19:11.187  SPELL_MISSED,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004CEC055BAD,"Boom Bot",0xa48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,RESIST
4/16 16:19:11.187  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004CEC055BBD,"Boom Bot",0xa48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,1078,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:11.187  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004F3C046B41,"Dr. Boom",0x10a48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,1519,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

While I was just hammering the cl-button, it's not very precise, but you can still see that the cd is 6 seconds starting with the lo proc.
So someone doing a 3/1 rotation with zero haste will have to adapt after a cl lo proc or lose some cast time.

Tilla · 04/16/08, 5:33 PM

I have a question concerning the 2-piece T4 bonus. I tried searching the forums for it, but didn't find anything. Either I can't search well, or it's never been discussed in these terms before.

The basics of the question is this: how good should my personal gain in stats be before I can upgrade my final two pieces of T4 gear? I am now valueing the stat bonus as an additional 100 spell damage on those two slots, ignoring the fact that I supply 80 of that spell damage to other party members. For example, I am currently using T4 gloves and head. Should I look for upgrades on those slots that each give me an equivalent of 50 spell damage in extra stats, over their Cyclone counterpart? Basically, that means that I would skip T5 on those slots.

Is it right to count the 2T4 bonus as +100 spell damage and hold off on finding replacements on that basis?

• Binkenstein · 04/16/08, 5:36 PM

4/16 16:19:01.250  SPELL_CAST_START,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8
4/16 16:19:02.890  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004F3C046B41,"Dr. Boom",0x10a48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,2958,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:03.343  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004F3C046B41,"Dr. Boom",0x10a48,45302,"Chain Lightning",0x8,1562,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/16 16:19:09.312  SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,"Not yet recovered"
4/16 16:19:09.781  SPELL_CAST_START,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8
4/16 16:19:11.187  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000006305,"Gabnakh",0x511,0xF530004F3C046B41,"Dr. Boom",0x10a48,25442,"Chain Lightning",0x8,1519,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

Better to look at it without the boom bot stuff.
so 1.5 seconds after the cast start is 02.85, thus another cast after 08.85 should be fine. since it failed at 09.31, and worked at 09.78 we can assume that either your button mashing caused a "micro gcd" or that the overload did indeed reset the cooldown on CL to 09.34
Due to how the "spell queue" works, we can't button mash anymore.
I'll try it myself on the weekend to see what I can get.

Goraxus · 04/16/08, 6:24 PM

I'll begin by saying that I'm a mid-level raider. My guild is progressing in SSC and TK, so 4pc T6 is still a ways off. I find that Im capable of doing significant DPS, but have the consistent problem of running low or (on very rare occaisions) completely running out of mana.

I understand that mana is an issue for all eles and chain pop potions. I recently respec'd Alchy for this reason and am working on obtaining the new stone to make better use of pots. I stack higher crit than others that I know, who have recently been abandoning crit in favor of spell damage and haste. This seems like a terrible idea to me given my current mana problems and the obvious benefits of crit and clearcasting. I LB spam on lengthy fights, and use a 3/1 rotation when it's feasible.

Is there something else that I can do, or something that I have clearly done wrong with gear to cause such consistent mana problems? I'd appreciate if any of you would be willing to take a look at my armory and provide feedback. I understand this is not a gear thread and apologize ahead of time, but I'm really struggling to understand this and have found no better place for advice.

Thank you!

Croaker · 04/16/08, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by Goraxus

I'll begin by saying that I'm a mid-level raider. My guild is progressing in SSC and TK, so 4pc T6 is still a ways off. I find that Im capable of doing significant DPS, but have the consistent problem of running low or (on very rare occaisions) completely running out of mana.

I understand that mana is an issue for all eles and chain pop potions. I recently respec'd Alchy for this reason and am working on obtaining the new stone to make better use of pots. I stack higher crit than others that I know, who have recently been abandoning crit in favor of spell damage and haste. This seems like a terrible idea to me given my current mana problems and the obvious benefits of crit and clearcasting. I LB spam on lengthy fights, and use a 3/1 rotation when it's feasible.

Is there something else that I can do, or something that I have clearly done wrong with gear to cause such consistent mana problems? I'd appreciate if any of you would be willing to take a look at my armory and provide feedback. I understand this is not a gear thread and apologize ahead of time, but I'm really struggling to understand this and have found no better place for advice.

Thank you!

Drop ancestral healing and 1 point in imp reincarnation to max out Totemic Focus.

Elemental Warding > Eye of the Storm

You don't have any gaping itemization flaws, your stuff all seems to be chosen relatively wisely. Really the best options are to get a shadowpriest in your group if possible (personally I almost always have one) and if that's not possible, drop to straight LB spam instead of a 3/1 rotation.

• Binkenstein · 04/16/08, 7:46 PM

If you're having mana problems, go grab Totem of the Pulsing Earth, easy 27 mana reduction per LB.
You may also want to go with some of the new badge vendor gear, and go for pure LB spam unless you can get said shadow priest.