Haste applies (for this purpose of interleaving) to FS as well and that is assuming full stack of fire vulnerability and CoE. Without those its not better dps. If you don't have fire mages and CoE up from locks don't do it basically.
Fire Mages (Scorch) + Haste on our runs = hot. Spreadsheet showed it was a DPS increase. I did not do the math myself.
Fire Mages (Scorch) + Haste on our runs = hot. Spreadsheet showed it was a DPS increase. I did not do the math myself.
The math suggests a minor dps increase, but at the expense of a much higher mana use, and limiting yourself to a 20 yard range (Need I remind people that range = life for ranged dps)
If you're having mana problems, go grab Totem of the Pulsing Earth, easy 27 mana reduction per LB.
You may also want to go with some of the new badge vendor gear, and go for pure LB spam unless you can get said shadow priest.
I also wanted to inquire about this as well. I just recently made the Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone. On Teron last night between that, mana oil, mageblood elixir I was still going oom some rounds. Basically if I did not hit a 4-5k crit on my mana/mad alchemist potions, it would dwindle away. We only run with 1 shadow priest, and she is put in with the locks/hunter's where as I am in a group consisting of me, a boomkin, and 3 mages. Is there much else I can do? When we go back I'm going to put the pulsing earth relic on as I was using skycall last night, but it just seems that even with the new stone it isn't solving the problem for me, it's only delaying it. I'm doing the normal 3/1 rotation and switching over to pure LB as my mana dwindles to low, usually at 35% or so.
Is it worth changing my gear towards a pure LB spam rotation since I don't get a SP in my grp?
I also wanted to inquire about this as well. I just recently made the Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone. On Teron last night between that, mana oil, mageblood elixir I was still going oom some rounds. Basically if I did not hit a 4-5k crit on my mana/mad alchemist potions, it would dwindle away. We only run with 1 shadow priest, and she is put in with the locks/hunter's where as I am in a group consisting of me, a boomkin, and 3 mages. Is there much else I can do? When we go back I'm going to put the pulsing earth relic on as I was using skycall last night, but it just seems that even with the new stone it isn't solving the problem for me, it's only delaying it. I'm doing the normal 3/1 rotation and switching over to pure LB as my mana dwindles to low, usually at 35% or so.
Is it worth changing my gear towards a pure LB spam rotation since I don't get a SP in my grp?
If it hasn't been made clear already if you have mana problems the first thing you do is switch to a pure LB rotation.
hey guys, was hoping for some feedback from the elemental shaman community on raid utility.
I know that elementals can earn and deserve a raid spot if they perform, as can most class spec's. What I'm wondering about is our particular raid set up. We run with 2-3 spriests, 2-3 mages, 2-3 locks. the rest of the dps is melee/ranged physical - 1-2 rogues, 1 arms warrior, enhance shaman, feral druid, 2 BM hunters. Healers are usually 2-3 pallies, 2-3 resto shamans, 1-2 resto druids, and 1-3 priests. Usually mages and locks are paired with either a spriest or resto shaman to ensure some type of mana regen and added group dps boost. Now with that information out of the way, the actual question is: How worthwhile is it to drop a single dps for an elemental shaman for the mages/locks, if they are paired with a spriest or resto shaman?
I've read the forums, and while it's clear that there is utility gain in using an elemental shaman over a resto shaman, our group composition and attendance mean that the elemental shaman will likely not have a spriest. I'm also taking for granted that most of our casters are unable to switch out gear to compensate for the additional 3% hit the totem of wrath would give. Is the dps boost to the members of the elemental shaman's group worth the difference in dps between the elemental shaman and the dps he would be replacing? Is there an overall significant difference for the raid, aside from a possible extra heroism?
Any suggestions/advice would be appreciated. Hopefully this is the correct place to pose this question, as I wasn't able to find another more appropriate location.
I realize this is supposed to be the forum where we advocate for Ele shaman, but if what you described is true, its probably not worth it. While you don't lose a ton of DPS by switching from a CL/LB rotation, you do lose some and what you are trying to prove is that your total raid utility is greater than a pure DPS class. Essentially there are a few scenarios that make us viable:
1. Replacing a healer: You are replacing a 3rd resto shaman - In this scenario you bring the totems and the heroism to the same group the 3rd resto shaman would have been in. If your group is running healer heavy, or is running more than two shaman and a CoH priest, your raid might be better served switching that healer up for a paladin and bringing you in as DPS to preserve the totems and heroism. In this situation, I think you can make a for going ele, but this isn't a scenario that most guilds have.
2. Replacing a DPS: Under ideal situations, meaning all your DPS are equal skilled/geared, you shouldn't really be beating any of them, with the exception of the other utility classes like a Ret paladin or shadow priest. In this scenario you need to figure out the raid DPS you will bring, and the raid dps that 3% crit to 4 other people will bring, if you are able to do at or near the damage of whatever if being benched for you, you have a case. (I intentionally omitted the hit value, as you said your casters can't/ won't adapt to it anyhow.
3. Your guild is running extremely shaman light, however in this situation, you would probably be better served going resto. Our non-DPS utility is pretty slim, yes you can Strider Kite on Vashj, and heal in a pinch, but this can all be done well without you being ele as well.
Personally, its my opinion that if your guild is running so SPriest light that you can't see yourself getting one, it means they'd probably be better served getting another one of them instead of an ele shaman. This isn't for our/your benefit, but for the benefit of the lock/mages that you'd be buffing, especially in the lock case, their DPS goes up substantially with a shadowpriest vs. w/o one.
I also wanted to inquire about this as well. I just recently made the Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone. On Teron last night between that, mana oil, mageblood elixir I was still going oom some rounds. Basically if I did not hit a 4-5k crit on my mana/mad alchemist potions, it would dwindle away. We only run with 1 shadow priest, and she is put in with the locks/hunter's where as I am in a group consisting of me, a boomkin, and 3 mages. Is there much else I can do? When we go back I'm going to put the pulsing earth relic on as I was using skycall last night, but it just seems that even with the new stone it isn't solving the problem for me, it's only delaying it. I'm doing the normal 3/1 rotation and switching over to pure LB as my mana dwindles to low, usually at 35% or so.
Is it worth changing my gear towards a pure LB spam rotation since I don't get a SP in my grp?
Well raid buffed in standard gear for teir 6 content your crit should be over 40%... particularly with a boomkin (with one i'm over 50%).
I never use mana oil or mageblood elixir and rarely mana pot. If you Lightning bolt spam and watch for a crit then after the next lightning bolt cast chain lightning to make sure it pretty much always is 40% cheaper that helps...
But all I can say right now is to up your crit. I cannot fathom mana pots giving you 4k and going oom...
hey guys, was hoping for some feedback from the elemental shaman community on raid utility.
I know that elementals can earn and deserve a raid spot if they perform, as can most class spec's. What I'm wondering about is our particular raid set up. We run with 2-3 spriests, 2-3 mages, 2-3 locks. the rest of the dps is melee/ranged physical - 1-2 rogues, 1 arms warrior, enhance shaman, feral druid, 2 BM hunters. Healers are usually 2-3 pallies, 2-3 resto shamans, 1-2 resto druids, and 1-3 priests. Usually mages and locks are paired with either a spriest or resto shaman to ensure some type of mana regen and added group dps boost. Now with that information out of the way, the actual question is: How worthwhile is it to drop a single dps for an elemental shaman for the mages/locks, if they are paired with a spriest or resto shaman?
I've read the forums, and while it's clear that there is utility gain in using an elemental shaman over a resto shaman, our group composition and attendance mean that the elemental shaman will likely not have a spriest.
Destro Lock *3 + Spriest + Elemental Shaman = Win
You run 3 shadow priests and you won't have a spare one for that group? We run with 1, 2 max, and it's always in a DPS caster group except on extremely healing-intensive fights.
I never use mana oil or mageblood elixir and rarely mana pot. If you Lightning bolt spam and watch for a crit then after the next lightning bolt cast chain lightning to make sure it pretty much always is 40% cheaper that helps...
Taking into account travel time, unless you're standing right beside the target (which you shouldn't be) by the time you see the crit appear you should be halfway through your next LB cast. "Waiting" for Clearcasting procs to cast Chain Lightning is not a viable option.
I don't think he meant the "next" cast...I believe he meant making use of the second Clearcast charge for the CL, so rather than getting a clearcast on cast N and waiting to use a CL for cast N+1, getting a clearcast on cast N, casting another LB on cast N+1 and using the CL for cast N+2. That should be doable, although it would take some pretty precise timing as well as paying very close attention to your buffs.
I don't think he meant the "next" cast...I believe he meant making use of the second Clearcast charge for the CL, so rather than getting a clearcast on cast N and waiting to use a CL for cast N+1, getting a clearcast on cast N, casting another LB on cast N+1 and using the CL for cast N+2. That should be doable, although it would take some pretty precise timing as well as paying very close attention to your buffs.
Fair enough, I guess I hadn't considered that option. Does LO eat Clearcasting charges? I've never really paid attention to it before.
I realize this is supposed to be the forum where we advocate for Ele shaman, but if what you described is true, its probably not worth it. While you don't lose a ton of DPS by switching from a CL/LB rotation, you do lose some and what you are trying to prove is that your total raid utility is greater than a pure DPS class. Essentially there are a few scenarios that make us viable:
1. Replacing a healer: You are replacing a 3rd resto shaman - In this scenario you bring the totems and the heroism to the same group the 3rd resto shaman would have been in. If your group is running healer heavy, or is running more than two shaman and a CoH priest, your raid might be better served switching that healer up for a paladin and bringing you in as DPS to preserve the totems and heroism. In this situation, I think you can make a for going ele, but this isn't a scenario that most guilds have.
2. Replacing a DPS: Under ideal situations, meaning all your DPS are equal skilled/geared, you shouldn't really be beating any of them, with the exception of the other utility classes like a Ret paladin or shadow priest. In this scenario you need to figure out the raid DPS you will bring, and the raid dps that 3% crit to 4 other people will bring, if you are able to do at or near the damage of whatever if being benched for you, you have a case. (I intentionally omitted the hit value, as you said your casters can't/ won't adapt to it anyhow.
3. Your guild is running extremely shaman light, however in this situation, you would probably be better served going resto. Our non-DPS utility is pretty slim, yes you can Strider Kite on Vashj, and heal in a pinch, but this can all be done well without you being ele as well.
Personally, its my opinion that if your guild is running so SPriest light that you can't see yourself getting one, it means they'd probably be better served getting another one of them instead of an ele shaman. This isn't for our/your benefit, but for the benefit of the lock/mages that you'd be buffing, especially in the lock case, their DPS goes up substantially with a shadowpriest vs. w/o one.
I am currently the only shaman main that raids in my guild. We have an Ele/Resto that switchs in and out with his rogue main from time to time and an emhancement that pops in every once in a while...
The fact that you say I should not me beating any of the DPS is just odd... I am top 5 if we are not in an AOE situation. I don't consider myself over geared than anyone in my guild... Depending on the fight I can be top DPS... Does everyone get more powerful than Ele Shamans when we start getting T6?
Fair enough, I guess I hadn't considered that option. Does LO eat Clearcasting charges? I've never really paid attention to it before.
No, it doesn't.
Originally Posted by SilentMunkey
I am currently the only shaman main that raids in my guild. We have an Ele/Resto that switchs in and out with his rogue main from time to time and an emhancement that pops in every once in a while...
The fact that you say I should not me beating any of the DPS is just odd... I am top 5 if we are not in an AOE situation. I don't consider myself over geared than anyone in my guild... Depending on the fight I can be top DPS... Does everyone get more powerful than Ele Shamans when we start getting T6?
In terms of dps rather than overall damage done on the fight, elementals will always be up the top. The only thing we need to work on is maximising time spent on dps, and thus affect how we show on the damage table itself.
That said, I am in a similar position, as I seem to be performing as well as some of our mages/locks. This is more suggestive that you are playing at 95% or more of your potential, whereas they are not. I'm expecting a best-in-slot T6 setup to result in about 1.8k dps now, with SW gear adding 200-300 more on top of that.
I am currently the only shaman main that raids in my guild. We have an Ele/Resto that switchs in and out with his rogue main from time to time and an emhancement that pops in every once in a while...
The fact that you say I should not me beating any of the DPS is just odd... I am top 5 if we are not in an AOE situation. I don't consider myself over geared than anyone in my guild... Depending on the fight I can be top DPS... Does everyone get more powerful than Ele Shamans when we start getting T6?
I am saying that the argument of whether to bring an ele shaman over someone else is purely theoretical, and if everyone is playing at their potential, no you shouldn't be beating them. That said, I routinely end up in the top 3 DPS on many fights in T6, and I wouldn't say our casters suck, but if you don't already have someone in mind (and being that a lock was asking for what sounded like their guild, I assume they don't) you'd be better rolling the dice on someone with a higher DPS ceiling than us. You can see this very clearly if you look at the WWSScoreboards for any high end boss, and try and compare to the "Big 5" class (locks, mages, hunters, rogues, dps warriors.)
I don't dispute that we put out good damage, I have my own parses to verify that, I was just answering on a general level a very general question about an ele shaman in a less than ideal raid makeup.
Quite a few people in this thread have reported a DPS increase by dropping Chain Lightning and going to straight Lightning Bolt spam.
I'm curious about this - are the people who are seeing a dps increase from LB spam over a 4x1 rotation spamming the button or using Quartz to time it? My suspicion is that there is a slight GCD caused from spamming and not that a CL - LO resets the CL cooldown, but I haven't had time to test this out. A friend of a guildie reports higher dps from a 4x1 rotation than LB spamming and he still times it with Quartz. I haven't seen or heard anything more than that, though.
I know Bink said he was going to test this out this weekend if he had time, but has anyone else gotten around to it?
I would disagree that in dps we're always on top. I'm not sure what type of destro locks, fire mages, hunters or rogues you run with if you can say that. Sure on some T6 fights with full consumables I've done 1550-1700 dps with little sunwell gear. With full sunwell gear I can see that easily going up to around 1800-2000. But warlocks, mages, hunters and rogues are already capable of that with barely any sunwell gear at all.
I'm curious about this - are the people who are seeing a dps increase from LB spam over a 4x1 rotation spamming the button or using Quartz to time it? My suspicion is that there is a slight GCD caused from spamming and not that a CL - LO resets the CL cooldown, but I haven't had time to test this out. A friend of a guildie reports higher dps from a 4x1 rotation than LB spamming and he still times it with Quartz. I haven't seen or heard anything more than that, though.
I know Bink said he was going to test this out this weekend if he had time, but has anyone else gotten around to it?
I'm skeptical as to how well one can time CL/LB with Quartz when you've got anywhere from 200 to 300 haste and varying latency at any given moment. One ms too early and you incur the same penalty that comes with spamming. I think this lag factor is a blind spot in current Elemental DPS theory. Perhaps some LUA-savvy person could modify LagInfo | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse to track current and average LB as well as CL->LB intervals. Once we have a number the community can work with, then we can look at causes and ways of lowering it to a minimum. For comparison's sake, in last night's BT I had about 2-6ms of lag between LB casts. Not sure about the CL as it goes by so quickly, need an average. If it could store the results and export as csv, even better.
And regardless of which method people use, I recommend you bring a tank (most any dps class will do) and compare LB spam to 4:1 on Servant of Razelikh - NPCs - World of Warcraft and report your results here.
In the end, it may come down to this: Latency has an influence only on CL rotations to which LB spam is exempt. The extent of this influence on CL rotations is what I'm curious about.
So I have been lurking here for quite a while reading the theorycraft of all thing elemental shaman
I know we are not supposed to post about "is X piece of gear better than Y piece of gear" -- But I think my question is directly related to the theorycraft that many are discussing right now.
My question is Quags Eye vs TLC -- Which is better for overall DPS?
Both TLC and Quags Eye benefit from increased haste (Because they both are based on # of times you are casting).
Quags Eye gives 37dmg, and has 10% to proc 320 haste for 6 seconds with no cooldown. The real benefit of Quags eye is the haste, and the more you cast, the more you get it.
TLC casts a weak lightning bolt every 3rd crit (ignoring 2.5s of crits after the bolt goes off). At worst this means 4 crits to make this go off.
I currently have a moonkin and shadowpriest in my group always while raiding ( ele shaman + moonkin + spriest + 2x destro lock is fun!). Mana is not an issue and usually I have between 40% and 50% crit on my lightning spells depending on luck (usually around 45%). I recently started dropping crit for haste, and have 58 haste rating. I also use the skycall totem, which gives 100 haste proc off lightning bolts.
I also have noticed that using Skycall + Quags Eye can be very powerful as they often proc together, and can cause each other to proc again.
TLC increases usefulness as both haste and crit go up.
I would go test this myself at DrBoom, but my crit goes up by 5% in raid from moonkin. This could effect the rate of TLC proccing. I have been reading and people keep changing their minds on which is more effective for straight DPS.
Now, for fights that are more mana intensive, and fights where I can crit multiple targets with CL: I tend to use the TLC because it probably does very similar damage to Quags, doesn't take extra mana, and can get several charges from one CL.
I have been using Quag's eye on any fight that has inturrupts or is single target (non mana intensive).
While my general guidelines seem ok, I would love a real way of calculating which is more effective (and trying to calculate this on my own tends to come out wrong because there are so many variables to have to account for).
It is not the CL->LB interval, it's whether overload resets the cooldown resulting in an increased rotation duration, and thus negating the benefit of using CL in the first place. If overload reset the GCD I thing we would have known this by now.
It is not the CL->LB interval, it's whether overload resets the cooldown resulting in an increased rotation duration, and thus negating the benefit of using CL in the first place. If overload reset the GCD I thing we would have known this by now.
That's one theory as to why 4:1 might not fit the math. But if you don't know what the CL->LB interval is (without regard to LO), how can you rule it out as another factor? It's two separate pieces of information you and I are talking about. I've observed CL->LB intervals of 1.36s to 1.65s. If it's routinely 1.65s, then CL is all but broken for us (not benefiting from haste when used in a rotation) unless there's a way to get that down to something more reasonable.
The impact of LO on the CL cooldown is interesting, but I'm personally more curious as to what other results people are seeing with their CL->LB interval to compare with mine.
Ok, I've done some testing, looked at the logs, and I do not think that overloads are resetting the cooldown.
So why did I get a damage increase by going to LB spam from 3/1?
I think it has something to do with the spell "queue" and how it interacts with spells on cooldown.
If we can only queue up a spell that is not on cooldown, it may be that CL can't be "queued" with a perfect 6 second LB "set". Which means we'd want to be casting LB as the cooldown comes up, preferably 0.5-1 second before hand, to "queue" it, and reduce lag/reaction delays. This means that a 3/1 rotation would probably be less damage than LB spam, but a 4/1 would not be affected until you start hitting around 360 haste.
Both TLC and Quags Eye benefit from increased haste (Because they both are based on # of times you are casting).
Quags Eye gives 37dmg, and has 10% to proc 320 haste for 6 seconds with no cooldown. The real benefit of Quags eye is the haste, and the more you cast, the more you get it.
False
Testing has proven there's an internal hidden cooldown. I currently run it myself and I'll guarantee that there's an internal cooldown.
04/16/08, 9:39 PM
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