The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 67

ruizAw · 04/18/08, 9:46 AM

About SEIC Beta: with +27 hitR 1hitR=0.035, but with +47 hitR 1hirR=0.43 and with +51hitR (cap, 4.04%) 1hitR=0.498?! I think if hit capped 1hitR=0, no?

Zensai · 04/18/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Croaker

Destro Lock *3 + Spriest + Elemental Shaman = Win

You run 3 shadow priests and you won't have a spare one for that group? We run with 1, 2 max, and it's always in a DPS caster group except on extremely healing-intensive fights.

This is exactly the same setup we run. And all 5 of us are LW for 4x Drums of Battle, and 1x Drums of War. Since the group is pretty much static for raids, they've even changed out some hit gear with higher spell dmg, since they can always count on having ToW.

• Binkenstein · 04/18/08, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by ruizAw

About SEIC Beta: with +27 hitR 1hitR=0.035, but with +47 hitR 1hirR=0.43 and with +51hitR (cap, 4.04%) 1hitR=0.498?! I think if hit capped 1hitR=0, no?

No. I am taking a different approach this time. I am looking at the dps contribution of a stat, divided by the equipped value. This avoids the instant de-value when you pass the hit cap, but it may value some a little bit higher than they should be.

Chaostheoryx · 04/18/08, 11:08 PM

LB Haste      197	    197+80	    297	         297+80	        197+30%	      297+30%
Average	 0:00:01.776	0:00:01.715	0:00:01.681    0:00:01.642    0:00:01.379    0:00:01.310
						
Iterations     18           13             14	           12	           6	          9
						 
Optimum    01.777	  01.700	01.681	        01.613          01.367         01.294
Delta	   00.001	  00.015	00.000	        00.029	        00.012	       00.016
----------------------						
Chain	      197            297	   197+30%	   297+30%		
Average    01.345	   01.288	   01.068	    01.020		
Optimum	    1.333	    1.261	    1.025	    1.000		
Delta	    0.012	    0.027	    0.043           0.020

From an Anetheron fight, intervals between CAST_STARTs. My latency is usually 80-90ms. I use autohotkey to make my LB and CL buttons 'spam while pressed' with only a 1ms interval (code snippet below). This time out I used Quartz and tried to time casts when changing spells (LB->CL, CL->LB), otherwise I held it down during the LB spam portion.

I only have 6 samples of CL, but after seeing how closely they followed the expected I decided they were noteworthy. This exercise was mainly to discover the extent of the influence of latency on our DPS rotations in 'real-world' situations. I'm comfortable with the conclusion that it is negligible, at least for my latency.

Several have asked what AHK macro I'm using:

#ifWinActive World of Warcraft
{
$2::
   Loop  
   {
    if not GetKeyState("2", "P")
      break
     Send 2 
     sleep 1
    }
return
$6::
   Loop  
   {
    if not GetKeyState("6", "P")
      break
     Send 6 
     sleep 1
    }
return
}

ruizAw · 04/19/08, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

No. I am taking a different approach this time. I am looking at the dps contribution of a stat, divided by the equipped value. This avoids the instant de-value when you pass the hit cap, but it may value some a little bit higher than they should be.

hmm... so if i have hit cap i still see, example, ring with hit > ring w/o hits. But its wrong - overcapped hit = 0 for my DPS.

• Binkenstein · 04/19/08, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by ruizAw

hmm... so if i have hit cap i still see, example, ring with hit > ring w/o hits. But its wrong - overcapped hit = 0 for my DPS.

Thus the over-valuing. Ideally, I'd need to put a if statement in for hit. Probably if hit > 16%,if item = equipped, hitvalue otherwise 0.

Hmmm. I'll look at adding that in once Mosh and I finish the gem stuff we're working on (there's some weird circular reference coming up for half of the item slots, but not the others

)

everwatch · 04/19/08, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

The math suggests a minor dps increase, but at the expense of a much higher mana use, and limiting yourself to a 20 yard range (Need I remind people that range = life for ranged dps)

I have stood in 20 yards range, not died, increased my DPS, and not run OOM. A DPS increase is an increase. When you're struggling to kill Brutallus and literally down him 20 seconds after the enrage, ever single bit of DPS you can eek out matters. If you can work it in without dying or going OOM (which I can, so I know others can) then it's worthwhile.

Some fights you can't. Bloodboil positioning prohibits it. Sometimes at Kalec depending on the SP's in raid, I can't get close enough again due to positioning either. But when I can, I do.

Lohmarn · 04/19/08, 8:40 PM

I am looking at swapping out a few items and wanted a DPS spreadsheet that would tell me the DPS per point of each piece and how it scaled with the stats I have. I have been using MaxDPS as a "benchmark" of sorts.

Currently I am using [Chestguard of Relentless Storms] and I can easily get my Tier 6 chest, and was thinking which would be better, [Skyshatter Breastplate] because of the 3 sockets and socket bonus or [Hauberk of Whirling Fury]. I am a jewelcrafter so I have access to the +12 spell crit gem as well.

I like having the 46 crit for mana efficiency and to help TLC on the Chestguard, but as Hauberk has no crit, I was wondering how much of a loss in DPS I would be having calculating in TLC, or if it would be a boost. Also, if i socketed the Tier 6 chest with 2 [Reckless Pyrestone] and 1 [Forceful Seaspray Emerald] to keep the socket bonus would it be worth it?

As it stands now, if I got the Hauberk, I would throw the +12 spell crit gem [Blood of Amber] in it unless I could get some numbers on how each would scale with my current stats. I know with 87 or 120 haste, depending on what neck I wear, the DPS out put will differ as will what trinkets I use, but I am looking for the best available chest per point of DPS.

I also was wondering on the trinket sides. I have TLC and did a little bit of calculating of my own VIA my current stats and how much stock MaxDPS shows I have in 10 Spell Dmg, Crit, or haste. I know if I lower my crit by almost 20, my TLC DPS will go down as it cuts down on how many crits I will have. Granted that I have a Boomkin in my raid sometimes, it doesn't really matter then.

Using ( ( 694 + 806 ) / 2 * ( 1 + crit(m)*crit(n) ) ) * 8.24 = Bolt(d) I got my average bolt damage when LO proc'd. crit(m) is your crit from you current main school of damage and crit(n) is your nature crit. Since both are the same for us, I used .38, since thats where I sit talented and unbuffed with totems, which got me 663.42. According to the formula on wowwiki [( 1 / ( crit(m) * hit(m) ) ) * 3 * cast(t) = Bolt(t) ], it came up with TLC proc'ing every 15.79 seconds, take that and divide that by the 663.42 which will give you the DPS equivalency of the trinket. I sit at around 42.02 DPS for TLC.

Since crit factors heavily on TLC, which chest I choose is vital, thus I run into my conundrum with which chest would be best over all. With my lack of haste, all the other guildies say the Hauberk is best, but I would like input from you guys regarding the TLC on crit. If I drop crit enough, Would I be better switching out TLC and the Chestguard for Hauberk and the Idol of the Crescent Moon, as TLC will have a lower DPS value on just flat damage?(I couldn't calculate the uptime of the use into its DPS calculation for the Idol, so that isn't factored in either)

Nizari · 04/19/08, 10:26 PM

Ok well I did some brief maths and found out that with my current haste the trinkets I can actually get (minus TLC) rank in the following.

Quags (don't have yet)
Hexlord (don't have yet)
Crusader
Sextant
Icon

I'm not the best mathematician but apart from TLC which I can't seem to find decent maths for and Skull which I will never get is this about right?

Currently at 130 haste rating 1200 spell damage 45% crit self buffed (totems). We are working on Brutalus and just learning the healing/tanking areas, have been getting 1600-1700 DPS unbuffed (no flasks/oils/destropots/food) Using Crusader and TLC.

I am throwing in Chain Lightning but only when I can assure it's on a clear cast, as destro pots plus haste = oom fast.

• Binkenstein · 04/19/08, 11:14 PM

Firstly, don't bother with MaxDPS. I find that it's calculations are a bit off, and it makes some assumptions (eg: you'll be using a shield rather than a caster offhand).

Secondly, if you're worried about the amount of crit you need for TLC, I'd say that having a 42/0/19 build isn't exactly the best (especially with 5/5 UR and 4/5 Reverb). Also, I assume that you've just been really unlucky on drops for your weapon/shield/rings/trinkets/neck, although the last one isn't much of a worry assuming there aren't many JC caster dps types in your guild.

I would recommend getting the badge chest, and gemming for for haste than you have been (I'm going for pure haste & damage gems at the moment, mostly because the difference between yellow/red/orange doesn't amount for much, and I'd like to keep my damage up while stacking more haste) mostly via seasprays (an actual use for them!)

Lohmarn · 04/20/08, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Firstly, don't bother with MaxDPS. I find that it's calculations are a bit off, and it makes some assumptions (eg: you'll be using a shield rather than a caster offhand).

Yeah, I assumed that when I started my own calculations

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Secondly, if you're worried about the amount of crit you need for TLC, I'd say that having a 42/0/19 build isn't exactly the best (especially with 5/5 UR and 4/5 Reverb). Also, I assume that you've just been really unlucky on drops for your weapon/shield/rings/trinkets/neck, although the last one isn't much of a worry assuming there aren't many JC caster dps types in your guild.

4/5 Reverb is for the shorter cooldown on ES for Council, but I just never changed it, probably going to move those 4 around, 3 to Elemental Warding, and 1 to EoS

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I would recommend getting the badge chest, and gemming for for haste than you have been (I'm going for pure haste & damage gems at the moment, mostly because the difference between yellow/red/orange doesn't amount for much, and I'd like to keep my damage up while stacking more haste) mostly via seasprays (an actual use for them!)

I did a few more calculations and noticed I will be getting 42 points of crit back when I get the shield and weapon, unless I take the mace off brutallus before the Dagger drops of HWL Naj.

Bouchkevka · 04/20/08, 11:33 AM

Someone asked about a reposting of TLC numbers. I didn't see any with respect to haste and crit so I did some numbers. My calculatution was based on Crit, haste, and LB spam. I assumed that the time to gain a charge was 1 cast (all casts under 2.5 seconds so any cast after the 1st cast can gain a charge) + Cast time X 100/crit chance (if some one has a 50% chance to crit average time for a crit would be 2 casts for a crit). I multiplied that by 3 for the charges for a lightninght bolt then I divided that damage of the LB (based on players crit) by the time it took to get three charges. Hopefully my logic was not flawed on that process. Anyway, now I could look at the effects of haste because I had it motify the casting time of LB. Because it is only helpful to see one variable at a time I have a selected table of values below for people to estimate their DPS they would get out of TLC.

Crit	Haste	Trinket DPS
30%	0	37.5
30%	100	40.0
30%	200	42.9
33%	0	41.3
33%	100	44.0
33%	200	47.1
36%	0	45.0
36%	100	48.0
36%	200	51.4
40%	0	50.0
40%	100	53.3
40%	200	57.1
50%	0	62.5
50%	100	66.7
50%	200	71.4

A quick summary of what I found was that +crit helps TLC a lot, but we knew that, BUT haste helps it 1/2 to 1/3 as much as crit does. So if you are swapping crit for haste (like me) your TLC takes a bigger dps hit.

Mox · 04/20/08, 6:55 PM

I have a question regarding the SEIC Beta, I managed to get a Quag's eye today and put it into the spreadsheet to see which slot it's best to replace, Icon or TLC. According to SEIC the Quag's eye is a 59 DPS upgrade over TLC, I went from 1562 estimated to 1621, how realistic is this because it seems kinda weird. Second thing is, thats with a 3/1 rotation... I have 80 passive haste so why is it saying a 3/1 rotation is 14 DPS better than a 4/1 rotation? Is there a bug in the calculations?

Monni · 04/20/08, 7:19 PM

So at this moment unbuffed im sitting at

1078 nature dmg (+55 from relic totem so 1133)
39.44% crit
44 haste rating

with t6 2 piece and totems i get 41.03% crit and 1274 nature dmg

question really is, to what values can i let my other stats (crit and dmg, pref unbuffed) while stacking haste and to what extent should i stack haste to (as in what values/%)

all tips are welcome

Mirranda · 04/20/08, 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mox

I have a question regarding the SEIC Beta, I managed to get a Quag's eye today and put it into the spreadsheet to see which slot it's best to replace, Icon or TLC. According to SEIC the Quag's eye is a 59 DPS upgrade over TLC, I went from 1562 estimated to 1621, how realistic is this because it seems kinda weird. Second thing is, thats with a 3/1 rotation... I have 80 passive haste so why is it saying a 3/1 rotation is 14 DPS better than a 4/1 rotation? Is there a bug in the calculations?

With the amount of haste you have, it's a boost in dps to wait the extra .0X seconds for your CL CD to come up than it is to cast a 4th lightning bolt.

I'm also at that point of having enough haste that 3 LB's aren't quite enough to let CL refresh it'd CD but a 4th one lets CL sit ready to cast for much more than 3/4 of the cast time of the LB. You pretty much have to play it by ear and judge it by your latency (or at least I've had to) and judge whether you're better off waiting, or casting a 4th LB. I started waiting more recently and it did indeed increase my DPS over casting a 4th LB.

Daidalos · 04/20/08, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Monni

So at this moment unbuffed im sitting at

1078 nature dmg (+55 from relic totem so 1133)
39.44% crit
44 haste rating

with t6 2 piece and totems i get 41.03% crit and 1274 nature dmg

question really is, to what values can i let my other stats (crit and dmg, pref unbuffed) while stacking haste and to what extent should i stack haste to (as in what values/%)

all tips are welcome

That is a very common question and the answer has 2 variables. Length of fight and net mana loss over time. With a spriest you can safely stack a large amount of haste if you are going to spam LB. Without an spirest it depends on things like fight duration and if JoW is up etc. Also you can take a look at mine or binks sheets for time till OOM for given amounts of haste for given buffs.

Daidalos · 04/21/08, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bouchkevka

A quick summary of what I found was that +crit helps TLC a lot, but we knew that, BUT haste helps it 1/2 to 1/3 as much as crit does. So if you are swapping crit for haste (like me) your TLC takes a bigger dps hit.

I have calculations for TLC in my spreadsheet I'll try to see what I can when I get the chance. However, just going by what you posted your data does not support your conclusions. You are mixing ratings and percents.

Lets take a look using your data but using the same units.
lets make 30% crit the base line

Crit	Haste	Trinket DPS
0	0	37.5
0	100	40.0
0	200	42.9
66.3	0	41.3
66.3	100	44.0
66.3	200	47.1
133	0	45.0
133	100	48.0
133	200	51.4
221	0	50.0
221	100	53.3
221	200	57.1
442	0	62.5
442	100	66.7
442	200	71.4

For crit: You can see a gain of 442 crit rating gained 25 dps( 62.5-37.5)
or .0565 dps per crit rating

For haste: it varies according to crit but for 442 crit a gain of 200 haste was a gain of 8.9 dps making it
.0445 dps per haste rating.

So while crit is a bigger impact I am not seeing haste being 1/2 to 1/3 the gain in TLC dps.

• Binkenstein · 04/21/08, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mox

I have a question regarding the SEIC Beta, I managed to get a Quag's eye today and put it into the spreadsheet to see which slot it's best to replace, Icon or TLC. According to SEIC the Quag's eye is a 59 DPS upgrade over TLC, I went from 1562 estimated to 1621, how realistic is this because it seems kinda weird. Second thing is, thats with a 3/1 rotation... I have 80 passive haste so why is it saying a 3/1 rotation is 14 DPS better than a 4/1 rotation? Is there a bug in the calculations?

Given that no-body has an accurate cooldown on the proc, it's a bit of a guestimate at the moment.
Secondly, there should be no way of getting a 3/1 rotation with haste, unless you have a high delay setting or have altered the LB number cell.

Bouchkevka · 04/21/08, 1:24 AM

I didnt do a great job at showing my tables. For every 1% crit you gain more dps to TLC (about 1.25) than you gain for 1% haste (0.4 to 0.9 based on crit (30% and 50%). But even with 22 crit rating for 1% crit compared to 16 for 1% haste it comes out to be more for crit than haste although the gap narrows as haste and crit go significantly up.

I think that table is best to give people the dps TLC ads based on their crit and haste. More of both will gain dps to the trinket but if you sacrifice 1 crit for 1 haste, the dps you get out of TLC will go down.

Crit Chance	Haste	DPS Gain
30.0%	0	37.5
31.0%	0	38.8
32.0%	0	40.0
33.0%	0	41.3
34.0%	0	42.5
35.0%	0	43.8
36.0%	0	45.0
37.0%	0	46.3
38.0%	0	47.5
39.0%	0	48.8
40.0%	0	50.0
41.0%	0	51.3
42.0%	0	52.5
43.0%	0	53.8
44.0%	0	55.0
45.0%	0	56.3
46.0%	0	57.5
47.0%	0	58.8
48.0%	0	60.0
49.0%	0	61.3
50.0%	0	62.5

Rate = 1.25 DPS per 1% crit or 0.056 dps per crit rating.

40.0%	0	50.0
40.0%	16	50.5
40.0%	32	51.0
40.0%	48	51.5
40.0%	64	52.1
40.0%	80	52.6
40.0%	96	53.2
40.0%	112	53.8
40.0%	128	54.3
40.0%	144	54.9
40.0%	160	55.6
40.0%	176	56.2
40.0%	192	56.8
40.0%	208	57.5
40.0%	224	58.1
40.0%	240	58.8
40.0%	256	59.5
40.0%	272	60.2
40.0%	288	61.0
40.0%	304	61.7
40.0%	320	62.5

Rate = 0.5-0.8 dps per 1% haste or 0.031 to 0.050 dps per haste rating.

So if you go from 40% crit and 0 haste to 10% haste and 30% crit your TLC will go from 50 dps to 41.7 dps.

Monni · 04/21/08, 3:31 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

That is a very common question and the answer has 2 variables. Length of fight and net mana loss over time. With a spriest you can safely stack a large amount of haste if you are going to spam LB. Without an spirest it depends on things like fight duration and if JoW is up etc. Also you can take a look at mine or binks sheets for time till OOM for given amounts of haste for given buffs.

Well for me, now adding crit is mana regen, as im at about the 40-41% area and i know that in any fight that i have mana problems in, i will be provided a spriest. The bigger question is that how low can the spell damage be dropped until adding haste over spell dmg will affect my dps negatively

Mox · 04/21/08, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Given that no-body has an accurate cooldown on the proc, it's a bit of a guestimate at the moment.
Secondly, there should be no way of getting a 3/1 rotation with haste, unless you have a high delay setting or have altered the LB number cell.

That's what I'm pointing out, if you alter the LB to 3 for a 3/1 rotation when you have haste it gives you more DPS, with a 0 cast time delay.

But what Mirranda said makes sense, since with 100 latency I can often squeeze in a 3/1 rotation, it's only when drums/heroism is up I have to go to a 4/1. Oh on the note of drums, is it possible for you to add a box for them, unless I'm missing it theres no where to manually add in the haste from a drum rotation.

• Binkenstein · 04/21/08, 8:52 AM

Well, if you edit a green square, you'll break the code, so it's your own fault there.

Zene · 04/21/08, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Bouchkevka

So if you go from 40% crit and 0 haste to 10% haste and 30% crit your TLC will go from 50 dps to 41.7 dps.

Great findings! I was looking for an analysis very similar to this and was quite surprised to find it so close to the end of the thread. I have a perhaps silly question, how can I convert the DPS rating of the LC to compare it to something like the Icon of the Silver Crescent, or any other trinket. More so to find out when/if the LC becomes an inferior trinket when I reach a certain spell haste.

Bouchkevka · 04/21/08, 2:27 PM

I would use Blinks sheet with your gear to find the DPS contribution. Then use the table to compare. I would do a graph or post more tables but I would have to do one table or graph for every %crit and the corresponding haste.

At 40% crit and above TLC will always be 50dps or more.
At 35% crit it takes 200 haste to be equal to 50dps or on par with Icon.

Perhaps that can help choose when to ditch TLC if you are stacking haste for crit but Icon's DPS contribution changes as your crit and cast speed change as well so it is a tough call.

The easy thing to do is get the Hexlord trinket and forget about it. But then again you need it to actually drop...

Zensai · 04/21/08, 2:53 PM

I've been more or less a lurker more then anything... But I figured I would post... If you want to see my gear obviously just follow the link to the armory.

I've read through alot of the posts... But Where I'm still a little confused is which totems, and trinkets are really best in slot... Right now I'm running with Shiffar's, and TLC.. I prefer Shiffar's over Sextant because of the amount of spell dmg. Crit isn't really much of a concern...

My current considerations are Replacing Shiffar's with Skull of Gul'dan, and keeping TLC. Or Replace Shiffar's with Hex Shrunken Head. And replacing my current weapon with Reign of Misery, and skip using Zhar'doom...

What I've noticed is there is a very small population of shamans that have access to almost anything they want, and which way they end up stacking gear. With my current gear I can easily run in the 1900-2k DPS on fights like Brutallus... Sometimes alot higher depending on crits...

So I guess my question is anyone that has most of the gear.. What do you feel is the right direction.. Or do you switch out stuff depending on which fight... ie. trinkets, 2h staff, ect.