I think Binkensteins combination isn't the best, cause you get more spelldmg if you chose the t6 shoulders and the sw gloves. in addition you got this stats:
t6 shoulder an sw gloves=
74 Stamina
63 Int
123 Spelldmg
11 Hit
29 Haste
57 crit
4 mp5
t6 gloves and sw shoulders:
60 Stamina
61 Int
129 Spelldmg
19 Hit
34 Haste
56 crit
0 mp5
when you chose haste/dmg gems for yellow and 12dmg gems for red. Now you have to reduce the spelldmg of the second combi by 12, the lose of the 2 purple gems you need for the meta.
Difference of both:
14 Stamina
2 Int
6 Spelldmg
-8 Hit
-5 Haste
1 crit
4 mp5
So the first combi got 6 spelldmg(and a lot other stats) for 5 haste(and 8 useless hit), so t6 shoulders an sw gloves win.
Is there a point where LB spam wins? Before now I always got the highest DPS from using a 4/1 rotation, while working in a FS every time the DOT wore off once the mages had the boss debuffed. My gear has improved a lot, but I have not noticed a large DPS increase.
I recently did not get a SP several times and had to rely on LB spam to not go OOM and saw my DPS jump up a lot. Confused the crap out of me.
Is there any reason to justify why I'm seeing higher dps numbers with LB spam with these stats? It's happening a lot now. (I do not use Skycall, I use the 85 spell dmg totem)
I'm usually around 450, and I think that's part of the reason why I saw a similar change. I've been working on reducing the "brain lag", and now Lag Info shows ~20ms. I'm not going to go back to a CL rotation, mostly because I've found that it's not much of a dps gain.
No, it wouldn't. As I pointed out, if you gem with two forceful seasprays to maintain the two blues required for CSD, it still comes down to comparing 12 damage and 8 hit against 1 crit and 10 haste. The reason why I find hit important at this point is that there is zero hit from Sunwell gear, which means we either need to keep above the cap from gear, or gem for it (which is probably more of a waste tbh). Gloves, helm enchant and Skull will put you at 58 hit rating, over the 4% hit cap (or 3% for me).
Even if we ignore the extra hit (and 1 crit rating), I would still go with 12 damage vs 10 haste, because at the gear level that I would have to make the decision at (ie: I had all the SP armor items) I would have roughly 467 haste, and at this point 12 dmg > 5haste/6dmg > 10 haste, which means that a) the stat differences that we're comparing come out on the side of T6 gloves, b) it's smarter to gem dmg/stam into a red gem socket on the shoulders and the chest/legs to maintain socket bonuses and meta requirements. (fyi: dmg = 0.844, haste = 0.966, a ratio of 1.14)
I can actually get more spell damage than you can with the T6 shoulders as well. I don't think you understand. I'd have the flexibility to have better stats than you do no matter how you chose to gem. I see you're still declining my challenge.
For the record here's how I'd probably gear up if I had access to every pieces I wanted :
Ok, so you've got 5 damage, 2 haste more, verses my 0.03% crit and 8 hit rating.
Interesting thing though, gemming for 6 dmg/4 spirit is a little odd, and spell penetration does nothing for us.
Secondly, restoration shaman will be keeping the T6 shoulders, so Erupting are pretty much a auto-loot for us, and the cloth pants will be fought over by the Mages and Locks before they ever get to us.
Thirdly, the socket bonus on the gloves is 2 crit rating. If it were 3-4 spell damage, then we'd have an argument for using a purple gem there, but I'd probably go with two 12 damage gems.
Face it, we could argue back and forth about which items are better, and be arguing about the minimalist of percentages, and then only for Alliance elementals, as the Horde are still restrained by their 51 hit requirement.
Ok, so you've got 5 damage, 2 haste more, verses my 0.03% crit and 8 hit rating.
Interesting thing though, gemming for 6 dmg/4 spirit is a little odd, and spell penetration does nothing for us.
Secondly, restoration shaman will be keeping the T6 shoulders, so Erupting are pretty much a auto-loot for us, and the cloth pants will be fought over by the Mages and Locks before they ever get to us.
Thirdly, the socket bonus on the gloves is 2 crit rating. If it were 3-4 spell damage, then we'd have an argument for using a purple gem there, but I'd probably go with two 12 damage gems.
Face it, we could argue back and forth about which items are better, and be arguing about the minimalist of percentages, and then only for Alliance elementals, as the Horde are still restrained by their 51 hit requirement.
Ok, so you've got 5 damage, 2 haste more, verses my 0.03% crit and 8 hit rating.
Interesting thing though, gemming for 6 dmg/4 spirit is a little odd, and spell penetration does nothing for us.
Well the 6 dmg / 4 spirit gems I figure are better than the 6 dmg / 7 stam ones if you don't need the stam because of the ~1 spell damage you get from it with divine spirit and kings. But it really isn't a big deal. I'd probably end up with the conventional gems.
As for spell pen, yeah it's kind of useless, but so is subtlety since elemental shamans shouldn't be pulling aggro off the tanks.
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
Secondly, restoration shaman will be keeping the T6 shoulders, so Erupting are pretty much a auto-loot for us, and the cloth pants will be fought over by the Mages and Locks before they ever get to us.
Thirdly, the socket bonus on the gloves is 2 crit rating. If it were 3-4 spell damage, then we'd have an argument for using a purple gem there, but I'd probably go with two 12 damage gems.
All true. I am pretty sure I even wrote something about the cloth pants earlier in this thread. I'd never take them over a clothie. And yes it's pretty marginal.
I was merely trying to make the best set up regardless of anything else. Eventually I'm sure we'll see some lucky elemental shamans with the cloth pants if they drop enough.
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
Face it, we could argue back and forth about which items are better, and be arguing about the minimalist of percentages, and then only for Alliance elementals, as the Horde are still restrained by their 51 hit requirement.
Is there a point where LB spam wins? Before now I always got the highest DPS from using a 4/1 rotation, while working in a FS every time the DOT wore off once the mages had the boss debuffed. My gear has improved a lot, but I have not noticed a large DPS increase.
I recently did not get a SP several times and had to rely on LB spam to not go OOM and saw my DPS jump up a lot. Confused the crap out of me.
Is there any reason to justify why I'm seeing higher dps numbers with LB spam with these stats? It's happening a lot now. (I do not use Skycall, I use the 85 spell dmg totem)
A few pages back there is a lot of discussion about latency, and tools such as laginfo and autohotkey. I would recommend using both of those. As far as your particular issue. Is your Chain Lightning in a macro, perhaps with Elemental mastery. I think we have observed that spamming a macro containing EM may cause a server side lookup and thus, increased lag.
Is there a point where LB spam wins? Before now I always got the highest DPS from using a 4/1 rotation, while working in a FS every time the DOT wore off once the mages had the boss debuffed. My gear has improved a lot, but I have not noticed a large DPS increase.
I recently did not get a SP several times and had to rely on LB spam to not go OOM and saw my DPS jump up a lot. Confused the crap out of me.
Is there any reason to justify why I'm seeing higher dps numbers with LB spam with these stats? It's happening a lot now. (I do not use Skycall, I use the 85 spell dmg totem)
If nothing else, take out Flame Shock from your rotation. That alone is dropping your DPS fairly significantly.
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
Secondly, restoration shaman will be keeping the T6 shoulders, so Erupting are pretty much a auto-loot for us, and the cloth pants will be fought over by the Mages and Locks before they ever get to us.
Have the mail equivalent of the cloth pants. The only difference is the socket bonus which again gets down to arguing the most minute of stat changes (shoulders v gloves). It comes down to what drops your guild gets and how perfectionist you are at having the absolute best stats for your race.
First EJ post. Thanks for all of the great info. This kind of theorycrafting is what keeps me interested in WoW.
As a longtime combat rogue I have recently leveled a Draenei Elemental Shaman. While reading the Elemental Shop and TTT threads I was quite confused by the references to Bloodlust. After searching my spellbook and reviewing the talent trees I did some research and quickly figured out this was the Horde equivalent to Heroism. Perhaps you would consider mentioning this in the Elemental TTT post. It may spare someone the same confusion if they too have never played horde side.
Guys, you might want to stop using AutoHotKey, as I got this response while asking about a keypress/0.05 delay/keyrelease macro, as an alternative to the keypress/keyrelease macro that is created by default.
We're running afoul of dangerously defining terminology, whereas I'm merely attempting to establish boundaries which will preserve the integrity of your play. There's no winning a discussion of policy with me in this case, as I'm merely interpreting what is likely to constitute a violation to help those who still want to use a G15 or similar macro-enabled piece of hardware avoid potential pitfalls. Seeking windows of 'opportunity', or attempting to establish a fallacy/loophole in the definitions I present is a pretty fruitless endeavour.
Essentially, for the purposes of this discussion a hardware function incorporates a single keypress consisting of press/release (the functional moment of a single keypress, which is normally not distinguished in the context of World of Warcraft outside functionality like that of your n52) and associated with character movement, and/or use of an ability (which we'll call a 'function' generically). Delays between any element of keypress/release/function or between two or more uses of keypress/release/function would therefore be unacceptable.
I kind of want to interpret that as using delays to macro some sort of behavior, like trying to make chain lightning fit perfectly in a rotation without having to press multiple keystrokes, but I could be deluding myself. The thing is, I don't want any delay between my key presses, I don't use the keyboard to perform intelligent actions, I use it so I don't have to perform dumb ones and/or get arthritis.
I was using keypress/delay/keyrelease in an experiment to get my casts working better, but I guess I'll have to go for just keypress/keyrelease to see how that goes.
Do not use them to automate game play in any fashion.
Do not use them so that a single macro press results in multiple actions.
Do not use them to insert time delays between hardware functions. For example, making a macro that causes your character cast a spell, delay one second, then cast another spell would be unacceptable.
Reading that I honestly can't see how any use of Autohotkey whatsoever is allowable.
Even if people want to read it in a way that make spam macros allowable, I think its still clear that using AHK is going totally against the spirit of what they intend.
It'd be pretty heavy-handed of them to worry about simple macros like AHK repeating key-presses. If they want to ban my account for that I guess they can feel free, because I'm not going back to abusing my keyboard and/or wrists.
Ok, so it wasn't the delay, it was the fact that my macro turned a keypress into keypress/release with no delay, which is ok as far as I can tell.
I asked a GM afew weeks ago before using AHK if having a keystroke "repeated" automatically by a G15 keyboard or AHK is ok and he said as long as you are physically sat pressing the key then there is no problem at all. The problem only starts when you start to use the key to perform multiple actions or alter stuff, like you adding a delay.
I'm usually around 450, and I think that's part of the reason why I saw a similar change. I've been working on reducing the "brain lag", and now Lag Info shows ~20ms. I'm not going to go back to a CL rotation, mostly because I've found that it's not much of a dps gain.
I don't keep a latency meter up anymore, never been terribly interested or having extra cluter on top of all the stuff I already use. But it's never been all that high when I do check it. Depending on local issues, internet, etc, it always ranges between about 40-200ish on average. On a bad day it's up as high as about 400ish, but that's not common.
Originally Posted by GoG
A few pages back there is a lot of discussion about latency, and tools such as laginfo and autohotkey. I would recommend using both of those. As far as your particular issue. Is your Chain Lightning in a macro, perhaps with Elemental mastery. I think we have observed that spamming a macro containing EM may cause a server side lookup and thus, increased lag.
Yeah...I read all of those. I don't use any macros on my shaman, only on my warrior, and those are Stance Dancing ones only. I single press everything and do not use anything to press buttons for me. So I know there are no issues there. I do have a G15, but I primarily use a Belkin Nostromo N52TE keypad. If you don't have one, it can and will change your overall gameplay by leaps and bounds. On my warrior I netted abotu a 200 DPS increase when I swapped over to it. I've always had a N52 since I had my shaman, so I can't tell you the net gain I saw in performance there. But my hand never hurts anymore. As I said before, before my gear increased I got more DPS from a 4/1 rotation with FS rotated in. NOW, after I've picked up...what...4 new Sunwell pieces + like 2 more items I'd been waiting on forever in BT (stupid drop rate), I get more DPS from LB spam. LB spam will jump me into the 1800-2000 range on several bosses now depending on the situation and length of the fight. Rotations no longer do.
Originally Posted by Mirranda
If nothing else, take out Flame Shock from your rotation. That alone is dropping your DPS fairly significantly.
Did you bother doing any math before you said that out loud? Every sim I've checked, and my own personal experience, shows FS with Scorch debuffs and CoE up doing an overall net DPS gain. HOWEVER, I have not run sims in sometime since my gear upgrades. Didn't think I needed to until I saw what I did in my recent raids... That *might* be true now with my current gear, but many people have tested the math and shown it to be a DPS increase in a rotation. Considering only SP usually need to be in close, I never have trouble working myself in up close with them for Shock Rage.
This is NOT a latency issue for me guys. I know my comp and I know my toon. It's a gear change issue. I jumped up some spell damage and about 6% haste. A full 20% haste now is crazy, especially when combined with Drums and Heroism. I am beginning to question if there is a break point where 5%+ dmg on LB combined with enough haste pushes it past any rotation DPS cycle. My comp, my latency, my internet, etc...none of these things have changed. And up until recently a 4/1 rotation with FS did the most DPS. Now LB wins most of the time.
My question to you math junkies is why?
Also is there a good place to test this? Dr. Boom is out since I keep hitting the stupid lil bombs with CL.
I don't keep a latency meter up anymore, never been terribly interested or having extra cluter on top of all the stuff I already use. But it's never been all that high when I do check it. Depending on local issues, internet, etc, it always ranges between about 40-200ish on average. On a bad day it's up as high as about 400ish, but that's not common.
This is NOT a latency issue for me guys. I know my comp and I know my toon. It's a gear change issue. I jumped up some spell damage and about 6% haste. A full 20% haste now is crazy, especially when combined with Drums and Heroism. I am beginning to question if there is a break point where 5%+ dmg on LB combined with enough haste pushes it past any rotation DPS cycle. My comp, my latency, my internet, etc...none of these things have changed. And up until recently a 4/1 rotation with FS did the most DPS. Now LB wins most of the time.
My question to you math junkies is why?
Also is there a good place to test this? Dr. Boom is out since I keep hitting the stupid lil bombs with CL.
Go download Lag Info off curse. See what the "brain lag" is. Might be surprising.
Just to reiterate what Binkenstein wrote. Everwatch, I think you are confusing latency readings with laginfo, they are not the same. Laginfo simply measures the average amount of time between each of your casts. Alternatively you can manually crack open your combat logs and record average times between the spell casts. The "spell queue," for lack of a better term, is a fickle thing and does not work in an intuitive way. I think you maybe surprised by the measurements.
I believe there is a mob out in old world that is invulnerable, but it requires you to bring a tank and a healer. If you simply want to observe the differences in cast lag under different setups then Dr. Boom should be sufficient.
Just to reiterate what Binkenstein wrote. Everwatch, I think you are confusing latency readings with laginfo, they are not the same. Laginfo simply measures the average amount of time between each of your casts. Alternatively you can manually crack open your combat logs and record average times between the spell casts. The "spell queue," for lack of a better term, is a fickle thing and does not work in an intuitive way. I think you maybe surprised by the measurements.
I believe there is a mob out in old world that is invulnerable, but it requires you to bring a tank and a healer. If you simply want to observe the differences in cast lag under different setups then Dr. Boom should be sufficient.
Actually, I got one of our officers (Pewsey) to modify his combat log parser to look at time between the cast finishing (CAST_SUCCESS) and the next one starting (CAST_START). Unfortunately, the actual timestamps are completely and utterly screwed, so it's relativity impossible to do that sort of analysis via the combat log.
Lag Info seems to be pretty good at giving that delay figure, and I have improved my dps by using various macros off my n52.
Guys, you might want to stop using AutoHotKey, as I got this response while asking about a keypress/0.05 delay/keyrelease macro, as an alternative to the keypress/keyrelease macro that is created by default.
Looking for an alternative to AHK, I noticed in that thread the suggestion of using the mouse wheel. Not exactly revolutionary, but setting the wheel to free spin on my G9 and whirling that bad boy like a roulette wheel gave my a ~10ms reading on lag info. This compares to ~40ms with AHK and ~130ms using "old fashioned" timed casts with quartz.
It may require more concentration, and may also ruin my wrists , but it does seem at first glance to be an improvement.
05/27/08, 12:25 AM
, but it does seem at first glance to be an improvement.
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