The One Stop Elemental Shop - Page 80

kasouti · 06/06/08, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

So, revist again please my question? Is there any math to explain why LB spam is winning more often than 4/1 rotations for me in raids? Is there a break point with haste at certain ms rates that can cause this? Should I simply regear/regem?

Only possible thing I can think of is that you're possibly clipping spells and having to wait a few seconds for the cl to come back up on ocassion. Also I know personally that when LB spamming I don't see a drop when not using ahk, but if I use the 4/1 cycle again without it I do see a drop of 40-50 dps.

Also if it seems LB spam is winning I know maxdps.com(although I dislike the site greatly) seems to have a different formula for LB spam vs 4/1 always having LB spam be the higher dps. So you may want to take a look at those formulas.

Ace1108 · 06/07/08, 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Actually, with sunwell gear you can actually reach a point of inflection where damage gems > haste gems

What kind of point would that be? Some level of haste?

Binkenstein · 06/07/08, 1:16 AM

Probably somewhere around the 15% mark, but it varies with the gear you have.

Binkenstein · 06/08/08, 9:34 PM

Ok, so looking at mana use, specifically Elemental Focus.

I graphed out my expected figures, and got $y=0.4x^2-0.96x+1$ where Y = mana cost on average after EF, and X = crit rate.
Generating some random values, I replicated roughly 15,000 LB casts and ended up with $y=0.6372x^2-0.949x+1$

Everything seems to be set up correctly, and the 10 values I'm generating from the 15k cast list all average out to the trend line formula quite neatly, so if anything I think I'm currently under-estimating mana use. Except I'm overestimating it based on observations from in-game.

tufy · 06/11/08, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by kasouti

Only possible thing I can think of is that you're possibly clipping spells and having to wait a few seconds for the cl to come back up on ocassion. Also I know personally that when LB spamming I don't see a drop when not using ahk, but if I use the 4/1 cycle again without it I do see a drop of 40-50 dps.

Also if it seems LB spam is winning I know maxdps.com(although I dislike the site greatly) seems to have a different formula for LB spam vs 4/1 always having LB spam be the higher dps. So you may want to take a look at those formulas.

1. MaxDPS has wrong calculations
2. It's not clipping. This is something I've been noticing for a while, but it became blatantly obvious at Muru yesterday. When trying to go CL-4LB on him, I lost substantial amounts of dps for some reason (in excess of 50 dps). Spreadsheets told me it should have been the superior rotation, but my guts told me I should try the LB spam with skycall. Once I did that, I broke through the roof, right past CL-4LB and actually reached the other ele. shaman in raid, who should be having about 20 dps more than me.

So I went back to the spreadsheets and compared the numbers with all three rotations, when it hit me - CL-4LB rotation was actually much closer to CL-3LB than to itself. LB spam was right where it should have been. I started thinking what the cause might have been, but I only have one possible answer: somehow, the rotation is delayed, causing an overall fall in dps. It seems to have to do with CL, possibly the delay is large enough to practically nullify CL's shorter cast time. How or why - that's what we need to figure out.

Anatta · 06/11/08, 6:34 AM

As was discussed on page 73, the delay from weaving CL into a cast rotation appears to be caused by having CL bound to a macro that also casts EM and/or pops trinkets. That said, is your CL key bound to a macro, or is it just CL?

whave · 06/11/08, 6:47 AM

Originally Posted by Anatta

As was discussed on page 73, the delay from weaving CL into a cast rotation appears to be caused by having CL bound to a macro that also casts EM and/or pops trinkets. That said, is your CL key bound to a macro, or is it just CL?

What I don't get, it delays the rotation BECAUSE it's a macro and the client has to go over all the lines and read them first, or it delays it because it tries to EXECUTE the EM/trinket commands all the time?

I'm using a macro for CL which only activates EM/trinket when I also press ALT, don't know if that delays anything, haven't noticed so far.

tufy · 06/11/08, 8:09 AM

Originally Posted by Anatta

As was discussed on page 73, the delay from weaving CL into a cast rotation appears to be caused by having CL bound to a macro that also casts EM and/or pops trinkets. That said, is your CL key bound to a macro, or is it just CL?

I'm using both. When Muru encounter starts, we pop all trinkets and items at once on countdown for initial burst (the so-called "Palpatine", my trinket macro). After that, I swapped to regular CL-4LB rotation, which should keep a dps higher than LB spam, but for some reason, it doesn't.

Also, does anyone happen to know the exact travel time of bolt at, say, 30-36 yard distance? I'm currently using an estimate of 1 sec, but would like a more exact number if possible (working on exact average for skycall totem, but it's affected by traveling time as well)

mecra · 06/11/08, 11:48 AM

This is something I've also noticed, and our previous Ele Shaman did as well... LB spam has higher damage and DPS than LB4+CL. So I'm in the same boat with you about trying to figure out what's going on. Using a LB4+CL rotation, I almost got kicked out of raid because my DPS was so low. I was utterly confused as to why it was so I switched to just LB spam and as you noticed yourself, my DPS rose substantially.

The travel time of the Bolt might have something to do with it, but I'm not a good theory crafter to work on such a theory. Also, Bink's DPS calc has Guidance higher in DPS than the Skycall so I used that this week. If we do the same Brut group next week, I'll swap out to Skycall to see the difference.

Buanna · 06/11/08, 12:11 PM

Is your total damage lower with 4LB/1CL or just instantaneous DPS? Or are you talking about true DPS (which no one ever does).

The way both Recount and WWS pick up DPS, Chain Lightning's non-travel time would show a drop in DPS.

tufy · 06/11/08, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Buanna

Is your total damage lower with 4LB/1CL or just instantaneous DPS? Or are you talking about true DPS (which no one ever does).

Average dps over the fight, as well as total damage are substantially lower. On Muru yesterday, I barely managed to keep up with lowest dps (around position 14-15) with CL-4LB, while LB spam pushed me up to 8 or 9 (note: this is also the expected position given my fairly crap trinkets and weapon). Average dps went up considerably - not just averaging out, it actually went UP considerably and my jaw was on the ground, thinking "wtf, that shouldn't be possible".

mecra · 06/11/08, 12:51 PM

Total damage was definately lower with a rotation. I went from 16th to 10th on damage (with a burn and death at 4% even) just using LB spam instead of a rotation and my fight DPS increased by 150 points.

Fizz · 06/11/08, 1:40 PM

My guild isn't hardcore by any means (we're not anywhere near sunwell) but with the use of the spreadsheet and some good shadowpriests I've managed to up my damage significantly and have become competitive with the other top DPSers. Thank you Bink for all your efforts on the spreadsheet. Helping with gear choices and becoming competitive makes the class much more enjoyable when you're a pretty competitive person all around.

That being said, I'm curious about TLC. In beta2, it was ranked pretty low, below #10 or so. In beta3, all the other trinkets are ranked much lower, pushing TLC up to #2. I'm curious if the jump is due to a modification in TLC calculations or it is just some weird anomaly. (We're no where near Brutallus and that seems to be a benchmark these days; I don't have a good "stand there and nuke for max dps" fight in which I can easily try trinket A vs. trinket B and get any sort of accurate results.)

Right now I'm at ~1150, 30ish crit, 15% passive haste. Perhaps the haste more than makes up for the crit loss? I still find it kind of peculiar at the huge different in rating with the TLC though between versions, and I haven't been able to find much discussion on it. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

Nennx · 06/11/08, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by tufy

Average dps over the fight, as well as total damage are substantially lower. On Muru yesterday, I barely managed to keep up with lowest dps (around position 14-15) with CL-4LB, while LB spam pushed me up to 8 or 9 (note: this is also the expected position given my fairly crap trinkets and weapon). Average dps went up considerably - not just averaging out, it actually went UP considerably and my jaw was on the ground, thinking "wtf, that shouldn't be possible".

Whats your job on that fight? You should be really high considering its an add fight with were most things aren't debuffed completely (meaning elemental shaman aren't hurt by this). What I'm guessing your probably is that you aren't maximizing your dps time and you're stopping casts without noticing -- its pretty common on that fight since you switch alot; even stopping your casts for like .5 seconds between targets can show, but I still find it surprising you're that low on the fight, especially using a dps rotation like that...maybe luck?

Kaideq · 06/11/08, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by tufy

Average dps over the fight, as well as total damage are substantially lower. On Muru yesterday, I barely managed to keep up with lowest dps (around position 14-15) with CL-4LB, while LB spam pushed me up to 8 or 9 (note: this is also the expected position given my fairly crap trinkets and weapon). Average dps went up considerably - not just averaging out, it actually went UP considerably and my jaw was on the ground, thinking "wtf, that shouldn't be possible".

Are you doing adds there or nuking sentinels? If you are on adds and doing poopy dps with 4/1 something is very wrong. I can nearly keep up with seeding warlocks when I am on adds, 2000/2200 dps being np for p1 with some tanking issues , ( tanks fucking up the pick ups @ the entrance side).
It's basically CL heaven.

tufy · 06/12/08, 5:25 AM

Originally Posted by Nennx

Whats your job on that fight? You should be really high considering its an add fight with were most things aren't debuffed completely (meaning elemental shaman aren't hurt by this). What I'm guessing your probably is that you aren't maximizing your dps time and you're stopping casts without noticing -- its pretty common on that fight since you switch alot; even stopping your casts for like .5 seconds between targets can show, but I still find it surprising you're that low on the fight, especially using a dps rotation like that...maybe luck?

I'm not surprised about my 9th position, that should be according to my spreadsheets (sucky mainhand and crap trinkets, basically). Also, LB spam produces EXACTLY the dps of the spreadsheets (+/- 50 dps, of course, but that's normal), while CL-4LB is over 200 dps under what it should be. I first thought it may be suboptimal casting, but when I tested it on Brutallus yesterday, I've had 7.4 minutes worth of casts in a 6 minute fight, which, counting LO, Heroism and drums, brings me to 5 min and 48 sec of casting - that's only 2-3 seconds from perfect timing, considering I needed to place totems twice and activate the heroism (note: I didn't cast any water shield, as mana lasted just fine). One option would be bad swapping, but then I'd have lower cast timing than most people - and I didn't. Additionally, bad swapping wouldn't explain why the hell LB is right there at spreadsheet numbers and CL-4LB is not - either both would be screwed up or none would be screwed up.

Originally Posted by Kaideq

Are you doing adds there or nuking sentinels? If you are on adds and doing poopy dps with 4/1 something is very wrong. I can nearly keep up with seeding warlocks when I am on adds, 2000/2200 dps being np for p1 with some tanking issues , ( tanks fucking up the pick ups @ the entrance side).
It's basically CL heaven.

Our adds are being CCed, so no CL heaven for our Elemental Shamans. All figures come from specific timeframes when CL-4LB is allowed.

bigdave · 06/12/08, 10:59 AM

I recently went elemental, I was checking belt options I didn't see much other there, especially just up to ZA level. I was considering just getting a belt of blasting? Any other suggestions or would that be pretty good with maybe 2 spell crit gems?

Daidalos · 06/12/08, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by bigdave

I recently went elemental, I was checking belt options I didn't see much other there, especially just up to ZA level. I was considering just getting a belt of blasting? Any other suggestions or would that be pretty good with maybe 2 spell crit gems?

The only reason to ever use spell crit gems is severe mana issues. Crit gems as far as dps goes are quite terrible compared to haste or dmg gems.

kasouti · 06/12/08, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by tufy

I'm not surprised about my 9th position, that should be according to my spreadsheets (sucky mainhand and crap trinkets, basically). Also, LB spam produces EXACTLY the dps of the spreadsheets (+/- 50 dps, of course, but that's normal), while CL-4LB is over 200 dps under what it should be. I first thought it may be suboptimal casting, but when I tested it on Brutallus yesterday, I've had 7.4 minutes worth of casts in a 6 minute fight, which, counting LO, Heroism and drums, brings me to 5 min and 48 sec of casting - that's only 2-3 seconds from perfect timing, considering I needed to place totems twice and activate the heroism (note: I didn't cast any water shield, as mana lasted just fine). One option would be bad swapping, but then I'd have lower cast timing than most people - and I didn't. Additionally, bad swapping wouldn't explain why the hell LB is right there at spreadsheet numbers and CL-4LB is not - either both would be screwed up or none would be screwed up.

Our adds are being CCed, so no CL heaven for our Elemental Shamans. All figures come from specific timeframes when CL-4LB is allowed.

Since you didn't specifically state this one way or the other. Did you check your crit rating when running the 4/1 cycle? Since it is possible to place at over 10% crit lower than you should and then get the proper crit rate the next go.

Binkenstein · 06/12/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by bigdave

I recently went elemental, I was checking belt options I didn't see much other there, especially just up to ZA level. I was considering just getting a belt of blasting? Any other suggestions or would that be pretty good with maybe 2 spell crit gems?

Aftershock belt, from the IQD badge vendor.

Binkenstein · 06/13/08, 12:08 AM

If you haven't heard, Shaman talents/abilities are in the new WotLK alpha.

Please do NOT talk about them here.

tufy · 06/13/08, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by kasouti

Since you didn't specifically state this one way or the other. Did you check your crit rating when running the 4/1 cycle? Since it is possible to place at over 10% crit lower than you should and then get the proper crit rate the next go.

First thing I checked :p A few runs I was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay under (and not just 10%, I think I had a total of 12% crit one try. Not kidding). However, most runs were fine. That's why it doesn't make sense, everything except the damage checked out. No idea, perhaps I was just unlucky and only hit / crit CL-4LB rotation in the lower end of spell's innate damage. That could have brought about quite a damage difference too...

Moving on to a more important topic:

If you haven't heard, Shaman talents/abilities are in the new WotLK alpha.

Please do NOT talk about them here.

That's like telling the kid "There's candy in your reach. Don't take it."

Anyway, I won't comment on them (stupid NDA, ffs), but I will say that from what I've seen so far, we have a lot of calculating to do.

Binkenstein · 06/13/08, 3:54 AM

Originally Posted by tufy

That's like telling the kid "There's candy in your reach. Don't take it."

Anyway, I won't comment on them (stupid NDA, ffs), but I will say that from what I've seen so far, we have a lot of calculating to do.

Go start a new thread if you want, just don't talk about it in this one.

Lucitron · 06/13/08, 4:43 AM

Go start a new thread if you want, just don't talk about it in this one.

Actually I would urge you Natharia/Tufy to start a new thread regarding the leaked talents. Might prove quite fruitful to have an objective discussion on the proposed stuff. Personally I doubt that I could manage to write an objective post about these talents, due to I had hoped for completly different stuff in the Elemental Tree.

tufy · 06/13/08, 6:12 AM

Originally Posted by Lucitron

Actually I would urge you Natharia/Tufy to start a new thread regarding the leaked talents. Might prove quite fruitful to have an objective discussion on the proposed stuff. Personally I doubt that I could manage to write an objective post about these talents, due to I had hoped for completly different stuff in the Elemental Tree.

I'm sorry, but I can't do that. As much as I'd love to discuss it, I somewhat respect the NDA and these forums are way too public to discus it right now. I couldn't care less about official forums, as the thread will be deleted sooner or later, but EJ should keep up its reputation, imo.