Apologies, finally discovered the correct thread and, indeed, the issue is addressed there and a fix is given. I'm still new to the site so haven't discovered all relevant threads yet. Thanks for the swift reply.

For a while I have been under the apparent misapprehension that spamming LB, with 4 piece T6 and about 1100 Nature spell damage will yield more DPS and overall output than any other rotation. So, I set my N52 game pad to simulate mashes while a button was pressed.

With Zero buffs on Dr Boom I got about 1500 DPS mashing holding down this macroed button. By that I mean only ToW and WoA. Now I have been reading up on how to up my DPS on Brutallus, when I came across information from 2.3 that indicated that this mashing would actually be lowering my DPS and that I need to be using Quartz latency bars again and start pressing just as the previous spell is about to enter the red.

Can anyone shed any light on this? I am unsure why my DPS on Brutallus fully buffed is the same as that on Dr Boom. I use the same macro, get zero burns and just spam (as boring as it it). Do I need to go back to quarts latency bar?

-Dr Boom is level 68, Brut is level 73, this is probably a 3% crit difference from JOTC and partial resistances take a bit of damage (probably as much if not more than the 5% misery adds)
-FPS/server lag, my laginfo shows me at <50ms on dr boom, on brut it can range from 50-150ms depending how the server/connedtion is feeling.
-Hunter pet taking the stormstikes?

The button mashing was inducing a local mini-cooldown that was effectively negating the gain the change was designed for. As such, they removed that minicooldown so button mashing works again (but there's no point of doing it until you'd normally have used your stopcast macro)

There's been an ongoing argument with my friends about the amount of DPS spell haste can increase. They've argued that an elemental shaman must have 120 spell haste for the 5% reduced casting speed to show real results. It's been also mentioned during the argument that getting only 50 - 75 spell haste will not give a reliable amount of increased DPS since you're sacrificing crit and/or spell dmg in order to compensate for the spell haste. But let's say the shaman has reached its spell hit cap and has a reliable amount of crit, maybe around 33% unbuffed (including the talents). Maybe sacrificing a little bit of spell dmg and crit to make room for 50 spell haste or more could yield an increase in DPS. So the question here is that, is spell haste in smaller amounts than the reccommended amount for High-End geared shamans (shamans that consistently put out 1400-1600 DPS) effective to have at the cost of 1% or 2 % of spell crit and some spell dmg? For 50 - 75 spell haste that is the usual amount of stats that are sacrificed.

I haven't finished reading all 50+ pages to this thread, so if it has been already been discussed please let me know. I've also tried using shamstats to clear up the matter, but apparently it's out of date.

Initially, the thought was that there are areas of haste that would result in a dps decrease based on the CL rotation.
In practise though, using CL doesn't appear to be all it's cracked up to be, and so those areas aren't applicable for a pure LB "rotation".
Things were complicated more by considering T6 4pc as well, and this was before the haste GCD change in 2.4

Since as bink mentioned CL rotations in practice don't seem to always be matching the TC'ed projections for them. Pure LB rotations don't really have a particular amount of haste that is ideal. That being said, yes, it is about balance. I think Bink's 15% figure is about the point in SW gear where dmg starts to equal haste. The 15% is not a fixed amount since the value of haste scales with dmg and crit. If you want to look at stat weights I think bink shows a breakdown in his sheet if not I have a DEP stat break down in my sheet for pure dps calculations.

Well, tapping my LB as it reached the quarts latency bar continuously gave me a 200dps increase over hard spamming. Now, I think I need to look at my gear. Take a look at what I have (I need to go change from my PvP gear after I write this). I have gemmed according to shaman I see in SW raiding guilds, because I assume most of them know what they are doing.

That can be danergous since you might not have similar raid/group make up. In addition just because someone is in sunwell doesn't mean they understand theorycrafting. I'd recommend using a spread sheet and finding out whats best for you and your raid make up.

One of these days I'm going to install AutoCAD or some other 3D graphing application, and then produce a graph of damage vs haste vs dps to get a better idea of where that "break even" point actually lies.

For example, I'm sitting around the 1100 dmg mark, have 16% haste and Quick Lionseye are around 9.6 dep vs Runed Crimson Spinel at 9.2 (I'm just going by what I can remember at this point), but I am gemming Best In Slot gear for damage over haste (mostly so I don't have to regem later)

I've got a few things to say here...so I guess I may have to repost some questions, as when I put too many in one post several of the questions get overlooked. But hopefully not this time. OK, so I didnt' read anything conclusive in here to tell me if CL was an issue, or if it was not an issue. So I've been trying to do this "old-school like"... Which IMHO is not truly conclusive in and of itself. Brutallus: 1 Enhance Shaman, 2 Heroisms, Retadin, JoW, SP, no Burns, 2 Drums of Battle (my own LW skill), 2 Destruction Pots 4LB/1CL rotation

2100 Brutallus DPS WWS

Now I forget all of my exact stats because I recently had to change out some gear. Logging in now to check some stuff (been doing Enhancement for Arenas/farming o.O) but my spec/gear is not set up right this second. Roughly I have the following:

1560 spell damage (or 1459 which is quite common for when I have to run TA totem for at least 20% or more of most boss fights. If we have a spare shaman to give the warriors WF, then I get to run WoA with more uptime.)
430 haste rating (27%)
Hit cap
37-38% crit rate roughly

Now I considered using the Skycall totem and dropping the 85 damage totem...but then I feel my haste is more than high enough, while that would cause my spell damage to dip too low (gut feeling). I want to put my second Ring of Anc Know back on, but I had to get a Loop Of Forged Power because I dropped under spell hit cap. I am next in line (FINALLY) for a Skull of Guldan...but no telling when it will drop and fix my hit issues.

I've been examing my gems as well. I've been seriously considering dropping every pure haste gem. Using Reckless Pyres in all yellow slots and Runed Spinels in all red slots. Gear choices upcoming will overall increase my haste from what it is already...and I have growing concerns over the benefit of stacking haste upwards of 500 rating. I have *NO* basis of fact for this feeling. I am going purely with what has so far never lead me astray. Never overstack any one stat. Keep them balanced.

I intend to use the T6 helm (you cannot EVER convince me that a few dps increases are worth more than how pimpin ass cool my toon looks with T6helm graphic turned off), to replace my neck with the SW one if I can ever get my hands on it DKP wise. Replace my BP with the SW one from Muru and the Brutallus Mace. Once I get a Skull of Guldan I'll drop the Crusader Deck/Loop of Forged Power and go back to Ring of Anc Know. I was wondering on the overall opinion of LBC? Should I replace it with the Hex Lord Trinket? Oh and the cloak off of Kiljaeden...sigh. We're stuck on Muru, so not counting on that anytime soon.


Now that you've got a feel for my gear, what my gearing goals are, and for what this current setup is capable of...


1) Lightning Bolt Capacitor
IMO the best 3 trinkets in game are the Skull of Guldan, Hex Lord Trinket, and the LBC (not counting the Sunwell trinket). So out of these 4 trinkets, what are the BEST TWO IN GAME? I was personally thinking it could be the Muru Trinket and the Skull of Guldan. But LBC scales *so* weird. Can we get a definative answer on this finally? If you go read the Enhancement thread, they break down all of the trinkets over the gear levels definatively. Something like that would be VERY nice to have as a resource for everyone. Not to mention the groundwork in answering these questions would make any new itemization (in WoLK for example) much easier to answer.

2) Spell Haste (caps)
There has to be a point where Spell Haste falls to a lower value than Spell Damage. THE QUESTION HOWEVER is whether that point/value is achievable? Meaning, do you ever have to say no more haste when at Sunwell level itemization. Spell haste will overall increase my DPS more than Spell Damage. But when you get to the 400+ rating level, what should be the minimum spell damage? Or will spell haste (in achievable gear) always win out?

3) 4/1 vs LB spam
I still do not have an answer to this question. Every raid environment situation I go into changes up by some variable and Dr. BOOM is not a viable testing method. I am so aggravated with this now, if you guys can come up with a truly controlled viable test method, you tell me what it is and I will bribe guild mates into doing the damn test so I can just know. I've seen LB spam jump to 2.2k+ dps and drop as low as 1500 dps. I've got no controlled environment to remove crit variables, etc... (**Keep in mind this question is directed for high end haste toons, not for low end haste toons.**)

4) Deathfrost
Does this enchant now beat out +40spell damage? Should we be swapping over? Is the supposed 20sec internal CD for spells only true (I know it's not for melee as I've personally tested that as Enhancement)?

5) N52/G15 button spamming
My fingers/hand fucking hurts. NO REALLY!!! THEY HURT. Someone please tell me how the hell to set them up to auto spam a damn button press for me? Show me a thread that teaches me how? Something?


A personal observation. I think Elemental Shaman will cap out at around 2300 DPS with a good setup in a raid (not optimal/stacked, but good). I also can tell you when you break into as much haste as I have (430 rating) that LB spam with mana pots with no JoW/SP = dead in the water very very very quickly. I think with JoW only on Brutallus once I was OOM by 40% health. The more haste you get the more and more dependent you will become on a SP. Make sure your raid leader knows that as your itemization improves, so does your dependency. I've also been wondering if dropping some spell haste and increasing my spell damage would actually increase my overall DPS.

Fire totems in 5 mans and in 10 mans are your friend. I do not even remember the last time anyone beat me on overall DPS in a Timed ZA. Not once. And I'm talking about our DPS'ers who I've seen do 2700 DPS on a boss before. Sure they beat me on the bosses sometimes, but never overall. And quite frankly, a Timed ZA run is all about the overall performance, and not the boss performance. This is an area where you *WILL* shine as an Elemental Shaman and show to raids/guilds/players how valuable you are as a class/spec/individual. Fire Nova/Magma totems + Call of Flame/Imp FN Totem talents combined with liberal use of CL = win. Also knowing the right times to drop Fire Ele totem. I usually pull 1900+ min DPS overall in Timed ZA first 4 bosses (upwards of about 2500ish DPS - I'm typically 19-23% of the overall dmg in a 1 feral/prot tank, 1 tankadin, 2 healer, 6 dps setup). Do not discount your other tools in non-optimal content outside of 25 mans. Also in MH trash packs.

I also saw some people commenting on how they were used at Muru. And how their DPS rated based upon where they were used. I've done Sentinel duty and Adds duty now. When on Adds I stay in top5 every time and give even our Locks a run for their money. When on Sentinels I drop down to rank 8-12 and do significantly less DPS. Talk to your raid leader and tell them if they want to get the best use out of your DPS stick you on Adds whenever possible.

I've checked the main posts but I'd rather not sift through the entire thread to find the answer to my question. What is the consensus on the 4th piece of t6 to keep with ideal Sunwell gear set up? Looking at numbers I got myself, it came down to gloves or shoulders.

I'd have to say gloves.

1) Lightning Bolt Capacitor
I actually have a worksheet in my spreadsheet that calculates TLC dps based on your current stats. I need to pretty it up a llittle but you can just look at my sheet if you aren't sure about its scaling. The hex trinket is easily convertible into pure dmg so you should be able to make comparisons with it fairly easily.


2) Spell Haste (caps)
There has to be a point where Spell Haste falls to a lower value than Spell Damage. THE QUESTION HOWEVER is whether that point/value is achievable? Meaning, do you ever have to say no more haste when at Sunwell level itemization. Spell haste will overall increase my DPS more than Spell Damage. But when you get to the 400+ rating level, what should be the minimum spell damage? Or will spell haste (in achievable gear) always win out?

Yes as Bink myself and others have mentioned haste scales with dmg and crit. Obviously there are crossover points but it depends on your dmg and crit. I also have haste DEP weighting in my spreadsheet and I think bink has something also.

3) 4/1 vs LB spam
I still do not have an answer to this question. Every raid environment situation I go into changes up by some variable and Dr. BOOM is not a viable testing method. I am so aggravated with this now, if you guys can come up with a truly controlled viable test method, you tell me what it is and I will bribe guild mates into doing the damn test so I can just know. I've seen LB spam jump to 2.2k+ dps and drop as low as 1500 dps. I've got no controlled environment to remove crit variables, etc... (**Keep in mind this question is directed for high end haste toons, not for low end haste toons.**)

We have had people try to test this and haven't really gotten conclusive results. Some ppl seem to get a gain using CL while others don't I'm suspecting it has something to do with the amount of haste the CL CD and casting mechanics. All I can say is try out the dif rotations and see which works better for you.

4) Deathfrost
Does this enchant now beat out +40spell damage? Should we be swapping over? Is the supposed 20sec internal CD for spells only true (I know it's not for melee as I've personally tested that as Enhancement)?

There is a thread on this enchant you would have to compare dps for your gear to see if its worth it. I was thinking that it was only better for pvp or for people with low amounts of haste and crit, but I didn't do any of the math we should take a closer look at this.

5) N52/G15 button spamming

There is a thread on autohotkey that skyhoof created that works even if you don't have a programmable KB. I use AHK since I don't have a g52. Surely you can google for how to spam a button though?

Im sure this has been covered, But by any chance would anyone know a macro to do for the /stopcasting to work with quarts casting bars?
Perhaps /cast Lightning Bolt, /stopcasting, /cast Lightning Bolt
Does anyone have an insight on this? Ill continue to search the forums for an answer on here, But so far i've found nothing.

I will be going with gloves also

I've been trying to decide whether or not it is about time I invest into haste. Here is my armory link The World of Warcraft Armory
(Not looking for people just saying, LOLZ REPLACE PVP GEARZ, It was the best I could get for back when I raided kara)
I am at 40% crit when in raid and looking to improve my dps. We don't have a spare shadow priest,unfortunately, to put into the caster dps group so I already use 3lb/CL sparingly. My guild leader suggests that I get the badge weapon, he does play a shaman however is resto and doesn't know much about elemental. I would rather sacrifice the 40+SpD gain for maintaining the hit cap without having to regem. I do have a quag's eye sitting in the bank waiting for use if anyone can suggest what I should replace, regem, or any suggestions at all, they will be much appreciated.

This isn't a gear check thread

Plug your values into spread sheets (either mine or binks) look at whats best for you.

What they said already in the two posts above me, but you better rethink your weapon situation. If you're honestly keeping to "stay hit-capped" as you say, then look at how much hit you actually need and how much you have.

You're Draenei, you have 13% to hit (counting ToW) with talents and racial, and yet you have 5.07% spell hit from gear. If I remember right, the magic number for Draenei is 38.xx hit rating, so obviously 39. You still sit higher than that without the mace.

I'd like to go back to Skycall a bit. Trying to answer some guy on official forums, I actually had an idea:

Let's assume a CL-4LB rotation vs. LB spam rotation. In LB spam, Skycall tends to deal slightly more damage than Totem of Ancestral Guidance (TAG from here on). In CL-4LB, though, the bonus is less, because CL gains nothing from it. What happens, though, if we do this:

/cast Lightning Bolt
/equip Skycall Totem

and

/cast Chain Lightning
/equip TAG

As much as I'm aware, equip after cast shouldn't interrupt the casting already in progress, but the bonus should be applied to the spell as it's done before the cast finishes. Unless the macro delay applies here, we should be seeing the merge of "best of both worlds". If it works, it could actually be possible to maximize the potential uptime of Skycall, while retaining Ancestral Guidance on all other casts.

EDIT: test concluded, never mind. The swap limits recast after Chain Lightning, because its GCD is still stuck at 1.5 seconds, even at haste.

I don't have yet top of the line gear, but im getting close with 352 spell haste.
The questions above that Everwatch has asked is very similar for my situation.

I can't really tell if LB spam or 4LB/CL is better. I cannot tell if skycall > ancestral guidance better. I cannot tell if TLC is one our best trinket or not. I tried a mix of everything on brut attempt, but I cannot conclude anything because of randomness.

Lately, I was thinking that since, I believe, TLC LBs proc skycall, and since skycall uptime means more casts it may help TLC procs faster ? So maybe skycall and TLC can proc each other for a nasty combo especially with 400+ haste?

So I tried that combo, skycall with TLC and got 1879 DPS on brut. had 1 heroism and 1 burn. I dont have any WWS to compare to, but looking at previous attemps I cannot tell the difference (Im usually around 1700-2000 dps with 1 heroism).

This makes my head hurts and Im thinking of making simulator in Java or C++ to find the scaling of those trinkets, and the question marks I have !

Anyone with more input on this ?

(Oh about spell haste and spell damage, since the breakpoint is not yet defined, and since I'm still getting new gear, I decided to go all Reckless Pyrestone route, since spell damage, haste and crit scales together and so far seems to work great, at least until I get more gear from sunwell)