Borninexile

looked throughout these forums and found rotations but i never found any specific rotations for when the 4 piece T6 has been achieved. My question, if able to be answered, when the 4 piece T6 is achieved is it more beneficial for Elemental DPS to only spam lightening bolt due to the 5% increase on chain lightening or to continue the 4/1...5/1 rotation?

 

Zensai

I have yet to ever see LB spamming be more DPS then 4/1 Rotation. I consider myself to be near the top of the DPS for Ele Shaman. And I still use 4/1 consistantly.

 

twiz

I'm still not sure, which is the best Rotation for us to use. But with the lack of some SW Equip and LB Spam i did around 2120 dps with one burn at Brutallus! So what do you consider top end of dps? 2,3k? 2,4k?

 

Ravhin

What dmg meter did you use Twiz because I find that quite hard to believe considering your gear. Do you have a wws for that particular fight?

 

twiz

WWS Loading...

My mistake, it was 2110dps.

Although i have to admit, i had

2 Bloodlust
2 Enhancer
critluck, but 1 Burn.

But nevertheless my average dps should be around 2k. But i can't wait to get my hands on some of the new SW Stuff.

 

Ravhin

Mm, yeah when I look at it I see your gear is at 18% crit which gives you raidbuffed something like 34% so your 41% has gained you a 7% dps of pure luck, so your normally would be at ~1960.
You have 8 drums as well, next to the 2 BL but there is some gear for you to pick up still, so all in all I believe these are not strange numbers then for a pure LB spam. 2 enhancement instead of 1 obviously helps as well.
Your haste rating is very high I see (338?); this must have a bad impact on your mana usage?

On the rotation question, so far I still see a noticeable higher dps using CL on single target (100-200 dps more with SWP T6, SWP gloves and legs) but it is only doable with an SP in your grp. If you use the haste relic however, a pure LB spam may prove better. I didn't test it because I despise the proc and it slurps mana, but maybe others have an idea

 

twiz

We also had a Ret Pala in the raid so it should be around 36%-37% Crit, the rest was luck. But i think 7% Crit |= 7% dps.
And with a shadow in the group i have nearly any loss of mana right now. Next time, i'll try 4/1 or 5/1 and let you know.

 

• Juice

Wow what a fundamentally wrong calculation. You took the 7% additional crit rate he got on that parse and then deducted 7% from his overall dps by multiplying it by 0.93. That's incorrect.

 

Ravhin

Hehe, well you are technically correct; I should actually have done 1.34/1.41=0.95 instead of doing it shorthand ;-). I was just doing this on the fly so I'll be more careful next time

In any case, counting the ret pally as well, the luck factor for Twiz is only 4% crit and normal dps is about 2050-ish. Counting the ret pala and the luck factor, the 'extra BL' (some 70 dps or so) and using 4 drummers instead of say 1 (some 45 dps difference or so) you would end up somewhere around 1900 with 2 enhance guys, but also 1 burn and 'only' full LB spam.
I think that's still quite high actually considering the gear you have, so I am interested to hear if you are doing anything special ( I assume you have wrath of air up and not tranquil air the whole time) or there may be some explanation for that high dps?

Very interested to see if you find different numbers on rotations

 

Dhiva

I think the result is actually quite normal. His gears is very similar to mine, and here's what I got, but using a 5LB/CL rotation (I'll list everything I can, I lost the parse for that night):
-2 Heroisms
-2 drummers
-1 enhance (running with 2 hunters with Wind Serpent :[ )
-1 ret
-Around 38% crit overall
-No burn, no boomkin, 1 shadow P.
I was able to achieve 2150 average dps (99% DPS time).
-Fight took about as long as him, 5:50 min.

So take his run, remove like 4 % crit from luck-factor, remove 1 enhance, and LB spam only, and everything makes sense.

2 heroism instead of 1 makes a good difference, like 100dps or so.

I will add WWS parse next time I record a similar situation.

 

tufy

Mindrila, if I may (a few days late, but still :p):

People often consider Elemental Shamans redundant because Restoration shamans can drop Wrath of Air and Mana Tide is considered a good replacement for Totem of Wrath. However, most are forgetting two very obvious details:

1. most elemental shamans are grouped with warlocks. As such, Mana Tide is completely redundant. Even if it would regenerate warlock's mana, their mana efficiency is so low that it essentially becomes a tiny boost compared to 3% crit that ToW offers

2. restoration shamans cannot dps. A good example of this was recent ZA race between top world guilds, where even Nihilum, which otherwise runs without an elemental shaman, had one for the speed run. Why? Because they didn't need an extra healer for most of the run. This becomes extremely important where you need all the dps you can possibly gather, as an elemental shaman brings excellent personal dps, along with all the buffs and a little extra for the casters.

Quite frankly, though, if I know most raid leaders, this won't be enough, people are too stubborn to see the truth until it bites them. What I would suggest is getting a good elemental shaman on your raid's gear level and bring him to ZA. Put in the best dpser from your raid and do the Bear run. I assure you, the elemental shaman will wipe the floor with every other dpser in there. Now ask your raid leader to point out a single dps class that can do that AND bring shaman's buffs. There you go, you just secured your spot in raid

Let's move on to your other questions:

Mages and shadowpriests seem to be extremely happy about manatide, but ToW is not so appreciated.

That is true, but as stated above, most elemental shamans are put into the group with warlocks. I personally run in (4 warlocks / me) group most of the time, while (3 locks, shadow priest, me) is reserved for toughest fights (Muru, Kil'jaiden). There's a few guilds out there that do even (2 locks, boomkin, shadow priest, ele shaman), but sadly, we don't have a boomkin in the raid.

I don't know (because I never actually played ele) if a SP is a must for elemental, in the TT it sounded like switching to LB spam solves most of the manaissues. So I could stick with some of our destrolocks and leave the mages and moonkin with their shadowpriest alone.

As you said it, switching rotation lowers dps a bit, but solves all mana issues. My gear, for instance, is specifically tailored to do Brutallus without a shadow priest and end up with almost exactly 0 mana at the end of the fight (note: I'm using skycall totem on top of current armory gear because it gives me more mana from judgement of wisdom and scales LB spam better). This is specifically tailored to the needs of our raid and my most usual group - whereas someone else will want more haste or whatever.

So well, I found no numbers actually giving a hint for manatide vs ToW, this would be interesting and perhaps the only way to convince my raidleaders. (I even had to calculate the benefit of skilling stoneskin totem to show them it's not worth it -.-)

Heh, this is a tough one. If a person runs out of mana, Mana tide is worth the damage done with its mana and that greatly varies witht he size of the mana pool and the mana efficiency of the class / spec. However, if the person doesn't run out of mana or has an active way to regenerate mana constantly (warlocks), mana tide is worth nothing or, in best case scenario, the time required to regenerate same mana through constant regeneration tool. Totem of Wrath, on the other hand, always provides 3% crit (which, with warlocks, translates into 3% more chance to refresh Improved Shadowbolt debuff) and has a chance to provide 3% hit if the party gear is tailored to it.

Then on another side I have some troubles evaluating my gear. As enhancer I made heavy use of a simulator to get my statweights, I tried using a spreadsheet for elemental and ended up with DEP like these:
Damage = 1 (not surprising I hope)
Haste = 1.3
Crit = 0.8
Hit = 0 (capped anyway)

So this suggests stacking haste is the best way to go. But I read somewhere in this thread that hitting 40% crit is crucial for our sustainability.

Another tough cookie. You see, as was said around here a few times now, haste scales your other stats. In essence, it starts fairly poor, scales up to amazing and then slowly gets caught by spellpower again. Rule of a thumb: 20% crit on gear, 1300 spellpower raid buffed, stack haste. Under that, stack +dmg. Don't bother gemming for crit unless you're under 20%.

I have the sextant available as trinket (for some extracrit), currently I equipped TLC and hex.

Hex + TLC > Sextant. Always. Specifically at 20% crit on gear and around 150 haste, it represents around 67 dps, whereas sextant equals just barely 60 dps. As your haste and crit go up, so does TLC's dps (never over about 75, though). Hex goes over 80, as do Gul'dan and Muru (sadly, I have neither of the two).

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Arakki

We tried running an Elemental Shaman on Kil'Jaeden and after a few tries it was imminent that the amount of spell pushback is too much for not having any other pushback resistance aside Concentration Aura and Earth Shield. We've had an elemental on all the other bosses in SWP or at least tried to have one without any major issues.

As of now, ToW doesn't out-weight the damage loss from carrying an elemental to KJ, moreso as we're still practising it, but is there a way to make an elemental more useful without using precious resto shaman GCD's for an Earth Shield? Or should we just keep that shaman as the 2nd enha in the raid for the MT/Reflection tank?

 

Bulger

Elemental shaman should be king of Orb dmg. Lighting bolt/chain lighting/frost shock(earth shock whatever you prefer) can all be cast very fast to give amazing burst on orbs with minimal push back and with a LO proc can pretty much give that 1 shot impression.
All of this can be ignored if you have no orb problems but to me sounds like your shaman is not using CL/Instants at the right point of the fight. I personally don't get a earth sheild or concentration aura and if i don't beat others in Orb dps feel I'm wasting a dps spot in the raid.
Ive heard many guilds not using them but imo if played right we can smoothe over orb/reflection dps (I assist on the harder reflections) to earn that spot in the raid.

 

broods

We are great at orbs and still do desent dps on KJ. If the shaman is good he will carry his weight. Fortunately my guild never questions my usefulness. Im sure they could find a more "optimal" fit for KJ but then they'd be stuck with some guy they maybe cant rely on.
Make due with what you got instead of fabricating weaknesses.

 

Cryonic

Hey all. Cryo lurks no more! This time I've got some questions I need answers to.

I've been wondering lately a few things and I knew this was the only place I could even hope to find answers.

First off: How much haste is too much? Is that even possible? I suppose what I also mean to say is how little crit is too little? Im noticing more and more Shamans dropping below the former 'ideal' of 40% crit to allow stacking endless amounts of haste. At what point does Spell damage (or even a little crit) outweigh stacking amounts of haste, if ever?

And now the all too familiar Skycall vs. Ancestral Guidance discussion. Some say a 4/1 rotation is the best DPS while some stand by a Lightning Bolt spam. Assuming you have 4p T6 what are the comparisons in LB spam with AG vs Skycall compared to 4/1 with AG vs Skycall (due to no longer being able to swap items without triggering a GCD)

If any of this was answered previously please call me an idiot and kindly direct me to the post where I can find my answers.

 

Anatta

Hey Cryo. Nice to see you here again.

If I recall correctly, it's impossible to exceed the "haste cap" with current end-game itemization for Lightning Bolt spam. You can, however, easily cap out your Chain Lightnings if you're weaving them during Bloodlust (I was getting sub-1 second CL cast-times with 194 passive haste + drums + Bloodlust, for example).

Regarding the "break even" point between haste and spell damage, I'm fairly confident that you teeter on it when your fully-buffed spell damage equals 6.5 times your current haste rating. At least this was my own experience in using Bink's SEIC: Whenever your spell damage exceeds 6.5 times your haste rating (i.e., 1000 spell damage vs. 120 haste rating; a ratio of 8.3), Quick Lionseyes offer (slightly) higher DPS than Runed Crimson Spinels. Conversely, if your spell damage is less than 6.5 times your current haste rating (i.e., 1200 spell damage vs. 250 haste rating; a ratio of 4.8), Runed Crimson Spinels take the lead in providing more DPS over Quick Lionseyes.. It was only when I hit the "golden" ratio of 6.5 (specifically 1286 dmg / 198 haste rating) did I notice that the two gems became equivalent.

I'm not sure how crit might effect this balance, however, I've personally dropped as low as 17% crit from gear without gimping my sustainability (then again, I always had a shadow priest). The general rule is to stack crit only if you find yourself running into mana issues since spell damage and haste are both cheaper and offer higher DPS.

There never was a resolution to the Skycall vs. Ancestral Knowledge debate. In theory, the 4/1 rotation should offer more (~70) DPS, however, in practice, many have reported better performance from spamming LB. One reason that was considered for this was that CL macros with a "/cast Elemental Mastery" line might have been causing additional lag between client and server (since the server would have to check to see if EM was on cooldown). Others speculate that spamming one button is simply harder to mess up.

 

babysnake

Does anyone have experience with an AHK like spam function on mac os x? Is it doable with Synergy or clonekey?

 

Cryonic

Thank you. This is great information and almost exactly what I was looking for. See this is why you should play on my server full time. That way I can just go to you for silly questions like this rather than make myself look dumb on EJ

On this topic... What exactly is AHK? From what I've read I gather it's a 3rd party add-on that seems to be compared to botting in the fashion that it operates, or at least it is in the eyes of Blizzard (correct me if i'm mistaken). What else can I do to ensure my time between casts is minimal? My latency is frequently around 90ms in Raids, I use a G15 Keyboard and would like to keep it. Assign Lightning bolt to mouse wheel or make a G macro set up to cast multiple lightning bolts?

For example:

/cast lightning bolt
/cast lightning bolt
/cast lightning bolt

As a G macro possibly?

And also... since I find myself having more time lately to just stand around I've been considering testing things like a LB spam with and without heroism and testing a 4/1 with and without Heroism as well as each with Skycall and Anscestral Guidance. But at the moment I use SWStats. Probably going to switch to Recount as I find it's DPS measurements are much more accurate and can separate multiple periods of "combat" which SWStats cannot. Is there anything I should know about "Dr. Boom testing" such as how to most accurately separate the parses, or how to best record them? I know I don't have a WWS account or even know how to post them.

 

babysnake

ahk has been talked about frequently here. You can make it press a key for you with set intervals. So for instance: press your LB (2) key every 0.1 seconds as long as you hold the 2 key down. It should give you faster, and more conformable, spam then normal casting, spam key pressing and scroll wheel casting.

 

everwatch

I am afraid you're arguement is inherently flawed trying to compare 25 man performance with a 10 man example. I've posted in here more than once, and also seen the same evidence from other Ele Shaman I know, that an Ele Shaman in a 5 or 10 man is an entirely different creature than in a 25 man environment. Most of the top end dps classes in the game excel at sustained boss damage and/or AoE dmg. For sustained boss dmg the primary reason for this is raid stacking. Giving these classes all of the bells and whistles as it were to pump their DPS through the roof. A fully stacked Enhancement Shaman for example beats out Elemental in WWS systematically almost due to how much they are stacked in a 25 man. However, there really isn't much of a way to stack an Elemental Shaman. Most of our damage is stand alone damage. We can do basically the exact same thing in a 10man or a 25 man becuase we have no stacking buffs like CoE, BS, WF, Scorch, Might, Kings, etc etc to bring us higher.

I can punch out over 1900 overall DPS in a timed ZA bear run consistently with no problem and absolutely blow away the highest dps'ers in my guild (doing over 20% total dmg done w/6dps) (we're working on Mu'ru). They won't even stay close to me. But put us in a 25 man...and the cards change. While Elemental Shaman are useful, have their place, and do help if the player is skilled, using a 10man example to justify our raid viability in a 25man is a poor choice. Sure, this can prove to your guild that you are good and useful, and that they should include you on any level of content. However it in no way demonstrates our usefulness in a 25man encounter.

I sit at around 1450 spell damage with about 430 haste I think it is? I dont remember off the top of my head, but the haste is in the low 400's, and I personally feel like I have too much haste compared to my spell dmg. Sure I cast fast, but I need to hit a bit harder. I played with some gear, and my experience was dropping a small amount of haste for more spell damage leant to a DPS increase. I think that has to do with several factors. For one, I push CL under 1.0 sec cast time with Heroism. Also it felt like passing 400 haste was like breaking through some kind of a wall. I noticed weird dps fluctuations depending on fights too often giving me ubsubstantiated results and inconclusive data. I never considered trying to find an actual ratio of dmg to haste, but I think the idea makes a lot of sense and I'll see if I can duplicate your results later on. I'm currently awaiting the Content Patch however. I'll be down about 10% spell hit with that patch if they don't re-itemize anything, and before I re-gem or re-gear I want to see how that will affect everything.

As to the LB vs 4/1 rotation, Lag Info mod is a great idea. You can check to see if you have issues at all with latency affecting your rotations. And if you don't, then you at least ruled out that possibility. If mana isn't an issue it's better to 4/1 if you have good latency. If you have latency issues at all, a 4/1 can nerf you.

http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

Anatta

When I initially tinkered with this calculation, the ideal damage-to-haste ratio of 6.5 remained virtually constant from Kara-level stats (i.e, ~800 dmg with minimal haste) up through early/mid T6 levels of gear. I did not re-test with Sunwell gear (as the stats were not finalized at the time) but given the number of iterations I tried, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the ratio remains the same with best-in-slot gear. In any case, I'd certainly love to hear your results when you get to them.

 

Ravhin

Everwatch, although your reasoning is correct, I think you miss the point. This is about fighting the old perception that elemental shamans are crappy in raids, which we all know is not true, but is not the opinion of a lot of players. So any example that you can give these 'old-thinkers' that knocks their pants off will help, even if it is not a completely comparable situation.

All is fair in love and war, right? I think it's quite a powerful example and thus a good suggestion to get some people convinced to check out an elemental. Once he gets in the 25-man runs, the real test follows

 

Torgol

To clarify a little further: AHK stands for AutoHotKey, it's a 3rd party program that you simply run in the background in Windows. It allows you to code scripts that will push any number of keys in a particular sequence. It also allows for looped sequences of key presses, or repeated key presses simply from holding down a button. You can use it to reassign keyboard keys and mouse buttons as well.

Depending on how you use it, it could be seen as botting, the program certainly has the capability for it. However, most simple uses that people on these forums are interested in (reassigning keys, repeated key presses) are arguably not botting, as they still require you to be sitting at the keyboard actively playing. It's a handy little program, but be warned that it takes a bit of digging through the documentation or some previous coding experience to figure out how to write useful scripts. It's not a very easy to set up tool.

 

Macblade

Unfortunately this is absolutely incorrect. I'll find the blue post in a second, but for the time being the brief version of the blue post was, using AHK to spam a key is against the TOS and the reasoning is that one action out of game = one action in game. Thus, one key press can only = one potential spell cast. Whether you want to try to get away with it and avoid carpal tunnel is up to you. Personally I just wish that they would do something with the game mechanics to make AHK unnecessary.

Edit: Here's the post I was talking about WoW Forums -> Seeking Blue clarification: key repeating

 

Mindrila

Thank you, for your input, especially Ravhin and tufy.

Actually the discussion at our board is getting quite heated. Well I'm going to spec elemental to show them whats going on, I hope I can perform well, my castlag is between 20 and 120 ms so that should be fine.

I'm only missing a nice helmet, I hope we go MH one more time, so that I can grab T6.

@AHK and G15,
as posted by Macblade, everything doing repeats or timed macros is completely banned. I had a repetitive macro on my G15 but well, I don't want to get banned.
What I tried afterwards was writing a macro which just had /cast Spell so often in it as there was space. Together with Quartz (or any other castbar-addon with lag) it worked quite well, reducing the lag.