Oh, I wasn't claiming to know Blizzard's stance on the issue, only stating that I would not consider it botting myself. I should also note that I don't use AHK for that purpose, I use it only to get around some issues with the drivers for my trackball not being capable of assigning the mousewheel function to any of the buttons. Rather a large oversight given how many games use the mousewheel for major functions.

Anyone have a rough idea how much dps our totems add in a group? Something like lock lock sp mage ele shaman on brutalus.
Im looking for a ballpark figure here.

Im usually doing 2k-2.3k dps without moonkin or crit streaks which palces me high on the wws report. ( My group do get 2 bloodlusts whereas some groups doesnt get any which makes the raid dps pretty even.

Anyone i've heard the number 120dps+ per caster which would certainely put me up with the locks on the dps though they get raidwide 10% caster dmg buff :P.

Sorry. Posted a request for a relevant graph then decided to make it myself.

If I get bored I'll try to make one. Not promising anything though.

The only time spell pushback is a problem for Elemental Shaman during Kil'jaedon is when you have Fire Bloom. I would have to say that I'm always #1 dmg on Shield Orbs, and Reflections. My average DPS through the fight is 1800 DPS. You loose alot of DPS switching targets from Orbs, Kil'jaedon, and Reflections. I don't know what gear level your shaman is at, but the spell pushback is only from Bloom, and its really not that big of a deal. For Kil'jaedon your Ele Shaman needs to be in a group of 3x lock, and 1x Shadow Priest. If you only run 2x Locks, then throw in a tanking pally for Conc Aura.

I would be more then willing to help you out in how to use your Ele Shaman, but I'd like to know his gear level, and maybe some WWS reports. Then I could tell you where things need to be improved. If you look at most of the guilds that are killing Kil'jaedon they almost all run 1x Elemental Shaman.

Ok, so I got bored.

Here's what I came up with for the Haste v Damage graph.


Look up your haste & damage. If you're on the haste side of the line, stack haste, if you're on the damage side, well, it should be pretty damn obvious at this point.

For simplification, I generated a table showing the ratio for a given haste and damage value (1% haste and 50 damage increments).
I then attempted to turn that formula into something to calculate the damage based on haste for a given ratio, but completely failed due to having so many divisors it wasn't funny (including 1-x divisors). I've never been fond of division in algebra, probably because I was usually asleep in my math lectures

So I found the values that were above 83.33% (or 10/12), normalised the damage values by dividing by the actual percentage, then multiplying by 80%, and got the raw data plot on the graph.

A simple polynomial trend line gave me the rest.

Of course, this is looking at X% haste vs 0 haste, but in any graph like that there have to be accuracy sacrifices made in order to simplify it to a X/Y graph.

And anyway, given the gear you've got I would have said gem damage over haste anyway.

I think there is something wrong with your chart. According to it, the less damage you have, the more valuable is haste. Doesn't look right. Shouldn't "damage" axis values be reverted?

Well, since, according to my calculations, the ratio is 1.23, gemming for haste is still a bit better. I'd be going back to gemming for dmg as soon as the ratio drops below 1.2 (since 10 haste = 12 dmg in gems).

If you look back at my previous posts, you'll see that I posted my entire formula at some point (with some initial errors that I think were corrected). I basically integrated the steps described there into a single (and ridiculously complex) formula and solved it for each stat (using my current DPS). I then multiply my current DPS by 1.01 and subtract my current stat from the result, which gives me how much I'd need of it to get an additional percent of DPS.

If you have higher levels of haste, you require less damage to make damage more valuable than haste.

Well, we can't both be right so I'd like to find out why I get such different results... I can PM you my spreadsheet if you'd like, or you could give me a practical example of how you'd do the calculation assuming some base stats.

Fair enouugh. Thanks for the explanation

I did some algebra on LB12 and came up with a model for where +12 dmg would equal +10 haste for dps. Goal was to decide which gem would add more dps. So the line represents and equal increase. Above the line gem for dmg.
HASTE = .833333(DMG-922.769)
also i left my haste in rating not %

Never mind, problem solved.

I am sorry if this has been discussed already and I missed it.

Has any one talked about 3.0.2 content patch and the fact we'll be losing 10% hit effectively? (7% if count on full time SP and 6% if you dont' count the 1% final hit is overcomeable now)
Still, we need a lot more hit than we used to.

T6 shoulder and pants has hit on it, however sunwell pants/shoulder are still prob better if we just gem hit on it. And another 2 big item can compensate is the ring of flowing power and skull of guldan. Assyne you can get all that. It'll still put us a bit under hit in general and will need to gem some our current gear for hit.

What's everyone's thought on that?

Help me with the graph please.

I for example have about 300 haste and 1360 spelldmg (counting Relic from teron). So according to the graph i im right where im supposed to be stat wise?
Or should i look at it from a raidbuffed perspective where im sitting at 1639 spelldmg and 380 haste with full drum rotation? In that case stacking wast amount of haste should be optimal right? Or do i have it the other way around?

Also do you think i would benefit more from the badge haste totem than the teron +85 dmg totem?

Appreciate the help from you math gods.

What should be the desired hit cap from 3.0? I have searched and seen calculations in the WotLK Elemental thread, which were going with 93 hit rating (plus the talent 3% of course) which comes to a sum of 10.36%, and they said above that haste worths more. Just wondering how I have to change my haste gems to hit ones, maybe we can spare some.

A good general rule is hit (assuming you aren't capped of course) > haste > crit for dps. As for hit amount, previously we had 12%hit from talents in addition to whatever hit we had on gear (Tow 3, guidance 3, precision 6) and only needed 16% hit to be capped at 1% chance to miss. Currently we only gain 3 hit from talents in addition we can now get 17% hit and achieve 0% miss rates. So we now need 14 hit in addition to elemental precision to be hit capped. Other classes (spriest and boomkin I think) now have hit talents now though so it depends on raid makeup if you need 14 or 11 hit from gear.

Anyone else notice that Boomkins are almost the new kings of DPS and Elemental are still very meh when compared to the other DPS classes? We did a SW/BT clear in 5 hours yesterday and our Boomkin did 3k sustained where-as I could only really reach 2.4k sustained.

I felt the same way through our cake walk BT last night, it's just meh for pve. Nothing has really changed to spice things up. I had not changed over some yellow haste gems to hit ones yet so I had about 4-5% miss, but I noticed I had almost too much haste and getting into a flow of 2lbx1cl was very difficult. I'm going from about 250ish down to 210, but even then I think it's too much.

I couldn't even run into the pally tanking pile and blast off a thunderstorm for fun and knockback, common.

Here's a serious question... since Ret Pallies' and Moonkin Druids' buffs don't stack with Elementals, and they both do more DPS than us, why bring an Elemental Shaman to raid? I'm trying to figure out my use in Wrath, but with the non-buff stacking, there are better choices than Elemental. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

One thing about Totem of Wrath: It has a +3% to increase crit chance on mobs (its an AOE debuff), while ret pallies will likely put their debuff on a single target. Totem of Wrath will be superior on multi mobs boss encounters.

If you glyph totem of wrath, I think the 1% (spell?) Haste stacks over wrath of air.