In all honestly, I don't quite get why rankings on a damagemeter is a solid argument.
Relative damage output over the fight compared to the top ranged magical dpser in a Shaman's party - now that is quality.

Now for Gurgthock's US-PTR forum post, his Conando sits at...
...87.5% of the top mage on Illidan.
...69.2% of the top mage on Azgalor.
...71.2% of the top mage on Supremus.

I'd say those figures are good.
Mind you the mage's sitting at 1380 spelldamage and the shaman at 1040, roughly.
The above spelldamage seems to be appropriate to mages/shaman of equal gearing level then Tejs' (post #198) situation.

The percentages I distilled were from Gurthock's US-PTR post which got deleted.
Niamee copied his post over to a CM-tagged thread in the EU.

Conando's relative DPS to the top performer seems about similar to our own Elemental Shaman we quite regularly field.

If the PTR changes go through you'll definately see these figures drop.
And I would have my doubts then about an Elemental Shaman's buffs and personal DPS being worth the raidslot compared to just replacing him with a simplistic damager like a Mage or Warlock.

Correct me if I'm missing something, but we should have 2 options now for compensating DPS loss: either we go for haste, or adding CL into our standard rotation as we will have better mana conservation. But... the two can't really exist at the same time, as even a small amount of haste rating screws up CL because of GCD.

We have to get situational gear for different encounters, haste for the one with sustained nuking, and one without any haste for highest DPS rotation, in case of a shorter fight?

When adding haste, you divide 6 by your new cast time, and round up to get the LB# before casting CL again.
To completely drop CL, you'd need ~500 haste rating with 1200 damage

Well, whave, I'm already using CL in a lot of fights, so that's that. Even with CL in rotation, one barely reaches the dps of LB spam from 2.2, but at a considerably higher mana cost (byebye, 20% better mana efficiency). A simple LB spam in 2.3 is in range of rank 10 from 2.2 and 2.2's CL-3LB rotation can't be reached with equal level gear at all. So much for "buff".

Well, Bink, the problem is, 3 LBs perfectly cover CL's cooldown. If you get even the slightest amount of haste, you need to cast 4th LB, which pushes CL further down the rotation and actually nerfs your dps a bit (haste gain isn't enough to cover that until very large figures). What's more, Heroism already places us to 1,5s limit, meaning if we get more haste, Heroism actually adds less relative dps to us. And that's just scratching the surface

Ok, so anything over ~50 haste rating is "wasted" for 45 seconds out of every 10 minutes (7.5% of the time, assuming it's used on cooldown, which it isn't). Yeah, that's a massive problem alright....

And anything over ~1.5% haste is going to increase dps, even if you are going to a 4/1 rotation (at least that's what my calculations show)

I was going into a big maths argument, but I think it distils to this Bink: haste rating in the 3/1 cycle is NOT a good idea (beyond a small amount which counteracts the casting lag which will still exist on a practical level in 2.3). Once haste rating gets to the point where you have to wait for CL to get off cooldown, it's not good because either you're waiting (nullifying the haste) or you're moving to a 4/1 rotation (which I would love to see calculations to show that 4/1 with +1.5% haste beats 3/1 without it, because it makes no sense to me).

While with a lot of haste rating (I'd love to see the calculations on needing only 1.5% to get it to increase, 1.5% haste and 4/1 shouldn't be even close to 3/1 in theory, although around 1.5% is a good amount to have in practice just because in practice 1.5% shouldn't actually get you to the point where you need to wait for CL, due to lag) you should be able to start gaining DPS from 4/1 or just flat out dropping CL, the point is that you would actually gain more DPS from getting +dmg and +crit to the same itemvalue. For 5% haste you can get 4% crit (roughly). The 4% crit is a bigger DPS increase. It is this point that seems to be eluding this discussion. 5% haste doesn't come out of nowhere, it is a trade-off. And for that trade-off, you can get more DPS from spell damage or spell crit.

If you want an example, compare the badge of justice elemental shaman chestpiece to, say, the black temple trash drop chestpiece or t5. For that haste rating you're losing a fair whack of spell damage and spell crit. And quite possibly for nothing.

Blizzard's key error in all of this seems to be assuming pure Lightning Bolt spam. That would make the new totem an upgrade over Totem of the Void, it would make all this new spell haste on badge gear worthwhile, it could even make 2.3 potentially a buff. The problem is, pure lightning bolt spam and haste gear is not our best DPS, 3/1 and +dmg/crit gear is and that is nerfed (but even with the nerf is better than LB spam and haste gear).

Simply making Lightning Mastery give an additional +2/+4/+6/+8/+10% of our spell damage to Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning would fix all this, you'd think, and with mages getting their co-efficient back and now being promised trainable ice block I'm not sure who they expect to even have a problem with that. It's really frustrating.

You don't need a lot of haste rating for that. Even the smallest amount of haste makes CL faster than GCD. That's the whole point. And as tufy said, even 1CL3LB is inferior to 2.2's pure LB spam... So maybe I'm still missing something, but it doesn't seem to me that haste is da new hot stuffz for us.

Well, to explain where I'm coming from, imagine this: 2.3 scenario, you have a shaman with 1300 +dmg and 40% crit. This shaman uses the standard non-hasted CL-3LB rotation.

His dps will be ([avg CL] + [avg LB]x3) / [[cast time CL] + [cast time LBx3]] = 2472,162 + 2476,551 x 3 / 7,5 = 1320,242

Now let's add a 5% haste to this calculation. We have two options:

1. we cast CL, 3 LBs, then wait 0,3 seconds for CL cooldown. In this case haste can be ignored and the dps is exactly the same as above
2. we cast CL, 3 LBs, then instead of waiting, we cast the fourth LB and then follow with CL. This creates the new CL-4LB rotation.

The new rotation's dps will be:

([avg CL] + [avg LB]x4) / [[cast time CL] + [cast time LBx4]] = 2472,162 + 2476,551 x 4 / 9,1 = 1360,26

Sounds cool? I'm sure it does. However, note that we needed 79 haste rating to reach this value. Let's convert that into pure +dmg using average item value and see where the numbers bring us:

([avg CL] + [avg LB]x3) / [[cast time CL] + [cast time LBx3]] = 2553,474 + 2578,191 x 3 / 7,5 = 1371,74

In other words, by replacing haste with the exact same value of +dmg at the regular item value (rating : +dmg is 1 : 0,885, as I'm sure most here know), we gained roughly 11 dps more. Not only that, but we also retained the full power of Heroism/Berserking when that spell is active. Of course, we're fairly close to border situation here, as the haste closes to 25%, it's value diminishes the power of CL for nonhasted combo and it becomes better and better until it finally overwhelms +dmg. However, it's not as simple as saying "stacking haste pays off".

This is what I've been trying to explain, Bink. Haste on gear costs. If it didn't cost, it would be one hell of a stat. But as it costs something to get, one MUST ask himself if it's worth it. In my opinion, it's highly situational. One good example is put forward by our friend Niamee above - with 4/5 T6, one might want to consider pure LB spam over CL-3/4LB rotation because of the LB set bonus. In that case, haste becomes a great stat to stack. Kinda ironic, then, that T6 has none.

My personal opinion on the topic? Since we're going from CL-3LB to pure LB spam, we are basically saving mana (even fully hasted LB won't reach the massive mana cost of CL). In other words, we're considering mana saving tools in a patch that brings us 20% better mana efficiency. Oh, teh irony.

Anyway, back to the topic: what I wanted to find out is not how much +dmg I'd need to replace with haste to make the same dps, but the exact value I'd need to negate 2.3 nerf. According to my calculations, I'd need very close to 25% haste (which is capped LB) to reach the 2.2's dps of CL-3LB rotation at my current gear. And that's kinda ouch (btw., the hasted dps vs. +dmg dps difference at 25% haste and 1300 +dmg / 40% crit is 9,55%, if anyone wonders. In favour of haste, of course.)

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Just a little screenshot about haste rating. (look at the tooltip)

127 haste rating and troll racial at full health.

My own math.

(H+A+3L+3C)/(1.5+3*2) = (H+B+4L+4D)/(1.5+4*1.9)
(H+A+3L+3C)/7.5 = (H+B+4L+4D)/9.1
9.1(H+A+3L+3C) - 7.5(H+B+4L+4D) = 0
1.6H + 9.1A - 7.5B - 2.7L + 27.3C - 30D = 0

X = 1000 * Concussion * LO * Crit = 1617
L = 642 * Con * LO * Crit = 1038
B = 0.571X = 923
D = 0.714X = 1154
H = 786 * Con * LO * Crit = 1270
A = 0.571Y
C = 0.714Y

2032 + 5.1961Y - 6922.5 - 2802 + 19.4922Y - 34620 = 0
24.6883Y = -2032 + 6922.5 + 2802 + 34620 = 42312.5
Y = 1714/1.4/1.1/1.05 = 1059 damage.

So to get the same DPS as 1000 dmg, 40% crit & 5% haste, you need 1059 dmg & 40% crit.
Although I would like to point out that 79 haste is going to be fairly easy to get in 2.3.

Might take this and do (yet another) spreadsheet

33% haste is capped for LB, 2/1.33 = 1.5, 2/1.25 = 1.6. Just fyi. It's in the dps spreadsheet thread discussion.

Neither am I. I've just been investigating the Euro CM claim that we should re-gear for haste.

Conclusion: 79 haste rating costs the same in itemization as 89 spell damage and gives you the DPS upgrade of 59 spell damage, therefore stacking haste instead of spell damage means you lose DPS instead of gaining it.

I'm not convinced Skycall Totem is even an upgrade to Totem of the Void either, for any rotation with CL in it. I did some modelling in a PTR thread which concluded that for pure lightning bolt spam at around 1200 dmg and 40% crit it was around double the damage boost of a Totem of the Void, but for a 3/1 rotation it was roughly equal- and I wasn't taking overlapping procs into account, so in practice it would come out inferior due to not utilising all the available uptime. One of the things that really hurts it is not proccing off Chain Lightning. The fact that it procs an inferior stat (haste rating rather than damage or crit) is bad too.

Tufy, most haste items thusfar have haste iso crit on the item itself. So you can't really compare it like that. As the only alternative you have for the slots is spell crit. On 1 on 1 base the spell haste adds a lot more dps than the crit on the items in question.
EG belt/bracers/ring.
I mean if you could spend the item budget yourself I would fully agree but that isn't the case

With the 4 t6 bonus and some haste you come pretty close if not above the 3/1 rotation with just bolts.
You're not only looking at just dps difference between CL and LB here, but the differences in the available dps upgrades for the different scenario's.

I haven't looked into the new spellhaste items from badges all too much, due to the fact that I do not want to think about downgrading my T6 to that crap.

Also I don't think Connando is that good an example as his dmg doesn't seem to be all that good for his gear tbch.

Right, I've turned CritvDmg into StatComp, and put a second section in for comparing the amount of damage required to equal 1% haste (I turned it into haste rating for the graph to make comparison easier).

The following graph shows how much +dmg you would need, per haste point, to make an un-hasted LB/CL rotation do as much damage as the hasted version.



So yeah, it's coming up fairly similar to what we had earlier, and oddly comes up with an "optimum" point for haste around the 200 mark (which would be ~280 dmg)

Well at least this leads me to the hope that if I have 4 piece T6, the spell haste items I can get (rings please drop) I might be able to do okay. That's a lot of gear though, and I think the 4 piece T6 bonus is going to be a must have if what we're meant to do is spam LB non stop.

I understand what we are trying to do is figure out what our max dmg output will be and how to achieve it in 2.3, but in the end we got screwed and someone should start castrating devs until they bring us back up. Hell, they changed the hypothermia cooldown on mages and then switched it back in 3 days time. After a month they don't realize they are not accomplishing what they set out to do?

Its not much to do with the community managers, it is the developers that felt the need to nerf are lightning bolt back 10 levels. We can only hope that they either see what they have done and fix it in 2.4, or maybe they plan to add more utility. While everyone is pretty miffed with the appalling communication from the developers, this is really not the place to express it.

On a totally different subject. I'm assuming a 2.3 rotation with haste would be bolt*4 then a chain lightning rather that the current bolt*3.

Aye. There is minimum haste value needed to be an increase in DPS, but that's our previously mentioned 79 point.

As for "optimal" haste levels, I'm predicting a 190-200 point, as a combination of practical gearing levels, and getting the most effective dps increase out of the stat.

Am I the only one who can't read that graph and determine anything from it? Could you add units or make it a little more clear what you're infering with some exampls?

I'm not too familiar with the stat programs you are using, and too often I see graphs posted with no units and sparse enough explanation that only frequent users of the programs really know what the graph is trying to show.

Re-read my post.
Y is damage, X is haste rating. It's a point for point comparison, ie: each haste (rating) point at X rating is worth Y damage.
What I was using was Excel, and conveniently there is now a copy of that spreadsheet on FileFront now (Stat Comparisons)

Here's my question, and what I've been trying to do to model it:

1) What can I do, with gearing, that would give me a 2.3 DPS equivalent to my old 2.2 gear DPS?

This was just to see how I could conteract the nerf assuming I could get enough gear (and I'll probably not be stepping foot into The Black Temple for a long time).

I posted earlier with some formulae that I constructed to determine average lightning bolt DPS (no rotations of chain lightning) (Link: [Shaman] Elemental Shaman DPS Spreadsheet?). Using these formula (which other posters believed was accurate), I solved for what spellpower level was required to match my 2.3 DPS to 2.2 DPS, and it turned out to be -153 Spellpower (remember, this is factoring in spell crit chance, spell hit chance, and lightning overload, although no haste was included). Thus, I could conclude, that at no amount of spellpower would ever be able to match my 2.2 DPS (which is pretty obvious, since that is exactly what the coefficient change accomplished).

Crit and Hit didnt have any other adverse bonuses either in terms ot really providing a boost to DPS, although crit did close the gap fairly well (I factored in having Chaotic Skyfire Diamond and even with some extra lightning overload procs which crit / hit).

That leaves Haste to scale my Lightning Bolt in ways that 2.2 Couldn't, simply because haste didnt really exist sub T6 level (where I am at, 4/6 1/4). So equating the forumla linked above and then factoring haste in, I found that I needed substantial haste rating values to equate the two, in the order of 247 Haste (in my particular scenario). Cool beans, it is possible to reach this value - however, 247 Haste is rediculous to get to 100% of the time (and I'd probably need slightly less haste rating because my formulae dont account very well for the extra lightning overload chances).

With the 68 Haste Rating from gear I was able to obtain and 100 from Skycall and 80 from Drums of Battle, I barely got to 248 Haste Rating - however, this haste rating doesnt last as long as I need it to. So Haste is one way to get back to 2.2 Levels of DPS (but not burst), so I couldnt use that exclusively because it wasnt always there.

So I wrote a program to choose Spellpower and Haste combinations that would provide more DPS than my fixed 2.2 Values, and it looks like I would need anywhere from between 0 Spellpower and 247 Haste to 214 Spellpower and 0 Haste. Thus, for every piece of haste I get from gear, I need to get 0.86 Spellpower to match it in order to match 2.2 DPS.

The only problem is, that every haste item I have seen does not give this ratio - you get far more +Haste than you get in equivalent +damage upgrade. So in the example of Netherstrike Breastplate (gemmed 57 Spellpower) VS Hauberk of the Furious Elements, I would gain 35 Haste Rating, but only 3 Spellpower, where I would need 30.32 Spellpower in order to reverse properly.

So, in essence, I'll never really get to 2.2 DPS levels, even with really awesome gear. T6 Geared shaman seem to be sporting about 1300 Spellpower or so, which is roughly 182 more Spellpower than me. If I had 4pc T6 and T6 Gear, you might come out on top, but for the forseeable future for me, I will always be doing worse DPS compared to the gear level I have now, at a constant rate. Does this make any sense?