Skyhoof

Does 4 mp5 do a lot for you? How about 4 health every 5 seconds when you can heal yourself to full?

Vitality is a fairly cheap enchant and the extra mana is nice when you first start raiding. However, more stam and faster run speed are much more valuable as you progress into SSC and TK. Plus, you won't be the last person to run back after a wipe anymore

 

Daidalos

I have vitality on my stillwater boots, but I think whatever I get in sunwell will be boars. The run speed would be nice on those fights where there are fires and you try not to be in them ;-) or get knocked away like on Archimonde. I would most likely value 9 stam over 4mp5. 4mp5 is just so negligible now with all our other sources of mana.

Not a huge deal either way I just have dropped my personal value of mp5 very low since I never run into a mana problem a mana pot doesn't fix. To be fair everything is on farm and our guild has very high dps so come sunwell my mana situation will worsen I'm sure but even then I don't see 4mp5 ever being noticeable.

 

TheSilverHand

I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I was posting, but not only are you right, but so is Simoon. After I saw his findings I got a hold of my sense and came on just to recreate what I had done yesterday. With a stopwatch at my side, I retried what I did.

Naked with 4318 mana, only mp5 is Unrelenting Storms (currently Elemental)
Time is 0%->100% mana

No External buffs: 3 minutes 27.18 seconds
Only Water Shield: 2 minutes 17.20 seconds
Spam Water Shield: 2 minutes 18.46 seconds

I did not test a cycle like Raut suggested.

So I was apparently experiencing a rectal-cranial inversion last night and was posting complete filth. Go me. I think the one second difference is just how the mana ticks lined up, because I was waiting until my unit frame reported 4318/4318.

 

Habanero

Given that you spent a lot of time looking at the mana bar, during a test like that does it go up every 1.5 seconds, 2.0 seconds or 5.0 seconds?

 

galzohar

boar's speed to HPS conversion for dummies:
Check how much time of a fight you spend moving when you want to be healing, compared to how much time you spend healing. Call that X.
HPS increase will be approximately X*0.08, so if you spend 5% of the healing time moving you will increase your HPS by 0.4%. Scales a lot better on more movement intensive fights, but becomes less accurate as the approximation assumes X<<1, as boar's speed is not really 8% increase to healing time but rather 7.4% reduction to time spent moving. However with time spent moving <=10% the approximation of x*0.08 is pretty damn good enough considering the margin of error in x is already much more significant than the accuracy loss of the approximation.

And of course, 8% move speed is 8% faster movement out of AOEs. If once an AOE is placed on you you spend, for example, 1/2 the time "reacting" (you realizing you actually need to move) and the other 1/2 actually moving, 8% speed increase will reduce your damage taken by AOEs by approx 4% on average as well, assuming you actually sometimes come close to taking 2 ticks instead of one and/or sometimes come close to never taking a tick, as if you always take 1 tick no matter what it won't make a difference obviously. This logic can be applied to pretty much any specific fight mechanics and then you can decide for your own.

All in all boar's speed does look very powerful, however it is obviously situational and its benefit depends greatly on the fight.

 

• Raut

To people arguing over that Boar's isn't "the bestest evar!": Of course it's not. You have two enchants which are neither great nor shit - Boar's and Vit. Both improve your raiding. Vitality isn't worth anything unless you actually need those 4 mp5. Boar's is a little stamina(Always good. You have a lot of fights where 10k hp is the bare minimum in BT/MH) and it's a little run speed. If you ever have been chased by a Doomfire on Archy, you will know how much you love this enchant. It gets you back to the action faster, it gets you away from the suffering faster. There are not a lot of fights where you have to run, but in T6 content you are probably not in need of those 4 mp5 either.

Anything that helps on Archy wins tbh. This is almost the old 8/053 vs. 0/5/56 discussion. Not taking 10% of fire/frost/nature damage will never be very important, it's just nice.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Vistol

The reason we are having this debate over Boar's vs. Vitality is due to the fact that neither is great.

Given some early 25 man gear (some SSC/Eye) with a flask/oil/BoW/water shield/mana spring/food it's not that hard to be running with 350-400 mp5 of which vitality would represent just about a 1% boost . Now any increase in Mp5 is good but relative to the quantity of total regen it's impact is minor, 480 mana/10 min or another big heal.

While one heal can make or break a raid for sure, generally if one heal from one player is the deal breaker your raid has other issues. Which is where Boar's comes into play preventing those "other issues". While it is agreed that the speed increase is only situationally beneficial not getting caught in Aoe's or getting back in range faster can be huge when required.

So the question becomes would i like another heal or two, or easier an time avoiding some effects/ wider margin of error on others?

As was noted above this does echo the 8/0/53 vs 0/5/56 debate, in my view as the speed boost is more useful as it represents a sometimes useful bonus that i have none of, where as i already have lots of mp5. Again neither is ultimately superior in all cases.

But at the end of the day i'd recommend Boar's on your first good set of epic healing boots.

 

Mandrachalos

I agree about Boar`s Speed being overall a little better than Vitality.
I have prefered Vitality up to now because I am a notorious MP5 junkie you could say. But there are some fights where some movement speed can help you and stam doesnt hurt either - and 4 MP5 really isnt that much on the other hand.
Also you move faster through the auction house. :P

I wonder about one thing though. Some ppl talked about downranking CH to Rank 4 for better mana efficiency. I know Rank 4 is more mana efficient than Rank 5, but do you really do that/use it often? I dont see any need for it actually. Sure, I downrank HW - usually to Rank 8 for spamming occasionally. LHW I dont downrank but use it rarely in PvE anyway But I just feel like CH 5 is usually so good that downranking seems to be unneccessary. I dont get mana problems either. I rather drink a mana potion on some fights than lose power on CH.
Any thoughts on that?

 

• Raut

CH4 is pretty great. When you are around 2k +heal, you heal around 300 less on the first target. It's really good for those long trash packs where you have too many healers and you don't want to work to conserve mana.

When in a spriest group, I use CH 5, always. And always over 50% overhealed on a full raid.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

biorobot

Maybe I am dumb and can't find it. I was wondering what i should shoot for for mp5 while doing kara. I just switched to healing and have been reading this and muderbots post.

 

Daidalos

I"d shoot for somewhere around 100ish unbuffed but don't ignore + healing.

 

biorobot

thank you very much that is what i was thinking my plus heal will end up somewhere between 17 to 1800 when i am down socketing gear and getting enchants.

 

Hodor

I started Tier 5 runs when I was completely blue equipped with around 1500 +heal and 100 MP5.

That was before the massive MP5 boost (at least 75 MP5) that we got with 2.3 and 2.3.2.

In other words: If you constantly keep your watershield up, you need only 25 MP5 to have equivalent stats to before 2.3.

In other words: MP5 is not very important anymore - as long as you keep your watershield and your mana spring totem up.

 

Habanero

I don't agree with this at all. Gemming for MP5 is not important anymore but you're going to be extremely gimped if you go for a full set of non-mp5 gear.

 

Hodor

Where did I advocate going with a full set of non-mp5 gear?

I simply said, that considering we got 75 MP5 for free with 2.3, MP5 isn't very important.

If I could raid Tier 5 instances with 100 MP5 before 2.3, I should be able to raid Tier 5 instances with 25 MP5 after 2.3.

It is simply wrong when considering raid-viability to use the same numbers from before 2.3 after we got the major buff with 2.3.

In this specific case, the question was how much MP5 is needed to raid Kara. The answer (after 2.3) is: not very much. Just keep your watershield up, keep that Mana Spring totem down, and be prepared to use Mana Potions.

 

• Raut

Going for +heal is probably the best thing, regardless of gear level. You get lots and lots of mp5 from talents and spells and by having a huge amount of +heal you can downrank to endure. +heal equals mp5 in situations where you need to output X HPS over Y seconds as mana saved equals mp5.

+heal also allows you to go all in when you have a shadow priest. I'm a lazy bastard and like some regen items, but +heal is king. You hop on the haste wagon for some fights in BT which basically is gaining more from your +heal at the expense of your regen.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Arfea

I can't seem to figure out where you're getting 75 mp5 from. Are you including the water shield charges dissipating qualitatively, or are you misreading the totem as 20(25with talents) as mp5 rather than a full 40/50? Or are you subbing in [Totem of Living Water]. Sorry if I missed it.

Aka Meaniemoo.

 

• Raut

Water Shield got buffed to give you 3x200/(60/5) = 50 mp5 (this after 2.3). Mana spring got buffed to give you 25*2.5 = 62.5 mp5, from 15*2.5 = 37.5. The total is 62.5 - 37.5 + 50 = 75 mp5

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Jamegumb

Thanks Skyhoof for all the efforts you have put into this.

I think you may be overvaluing int for your gear rankings.

If I look at what one point of int gives me (assuming BoK), I get:
0.33 heal + 0.3036 crit + 16.5 mana

Now if I assuming I’m gearing up for an 8 minute boss fight (don’t ask me why I chose 8 minutes), that 16.5 mana gets 2 mana tides added to it for 24.42 mana or the equivalent of 0.254375 mp5

So the formula for one point of int is now
0.33 heal + 0.3036 crit + 0.254375 mp5

Crit, although less reliable, can be directly theorycrafted into heal (assuming you don’t assess a penalty to it, and assuming a 2000+heal shaman)…1 crit is the equivalent of .452899 heal.

MP/5, can’t be perfectly converted into +heal but if I use your number of 3.75 mp5 to 1 heal, I get a ratio of .293333

So just using heal, I get a point of int with BoK is:
0.33 heal + 0.1375 heal + 0.074617 heal = 0.542117 heal.

Using the numbers above, your ranking numbers of:
Stam = 0.30
Int = 0.75
Spirit = 0.1
Healing = 1.1
Crit = 0.5
Mp5 = 3.75
Haste = 0.75
Armor = 0.01

Become:
Stam = 0.30
Int = 0.596328333
Spirit = 0.1
Healing = 1.1
Crit = 0.5 (actually 0.4988 so you are right on there).
Mp5 = 3.75
Haste = 0.75
Armor = 0.01

The tricky number is the Mp5 number…basically if you value 3.75 mp5 MORE than 1.1 healing, then the coefficient for int would increase…if you valued it less, it would decrease.

Hope this helps,
--JG

 

Slothrop

Skyhoof suggested in his gear rankings that after 2.3, that for the average resto shaman, 3.41 bonus heals are approximately equivalent in worth to 1 mp5 (3.75/1.1 = 3.41). Are you suggesting that this might still be overstating the value of mp5? What do you think the correct ratio should be?

 

vorda

You are assuming most guilds bring enough hunters to warrant a 'hunter group' though, I dont think that is usually the case.

 

Shamanaut

Even if you bring 2 hunters and a feral dps druid, I still think the 12 points are best spent on the totems versus other talents.

Again, I want to qualify that this spec is only valid if you have at least 3 people in a party that it would benefit and I thoroughly believe it is only best for mature raiding (Once the steep cliff of the learning curve has been put behind you) where mistakes are few and far between.

I definitely think though that there are plenty of guilds that have at least 2 hunters and a dps druid or 3 hunters on their 25 man raids. Even if you end up in a melee group, the improved totems will still help. I think the only place this spec will not improve a raid is in a caster or healer group. If that is where you usually end up, then yes, there are 12 wasted points in the tree.

 

Skyhoof

NOTE: Edited the post to show that 80 Intellect = 1% crit

You would probably be shocked if you knew how little math went into arriving at those values. I basically worked backwards. For example, I ranked all the weapons in the game (based on my gut). Then I went back and said what values would I have to assign to generate this ranking? I did this with all item slots until I arrived at the current values. So it's possible that I overvalued Intellect. Let's take a look at the math.

An 8-minute fight works for me. However, I think one Mana Tide is more realistic. That changes the mp5 to .2148

So the forumla for int becomes
1 int = 0.33 heal + 0.3036 crit + 0.2131 mp5
I think you meant to say that using my value of 1.1 heal = 3.75 mp5 you get .293333

1 int = 0.33 heal + 0.1375 heal (crit) + 0.0625 (mp5) = .53 healing (you got 0.542117 heal)

So using my 1 mana tide, my Intellect value would become
Int = 0.583

So either way it does appear that Intellect is overvalued -- at least mathematically. However, let's look at the practical implications. If Int = 0.60 then the [The Essence Focuser] becomes better than the [Lightsworn Hammer]. And I think +12 stam and +11 Intellect is more valuable than + 3 mp5. So if we adjust Intellect to .60, then we would probably have to adjust mp5 to 3.25.

 

Skyhoof

Do you have any WWS data or theorycraft showing how much you improved the DPS of the hunters and druids? It's tough to decide whether this is a viable spec without some hard numbers. You are giving up some significant talents. Depending on how much you boost DPS, it may or may not be worth the loss.

 

hozzer

skyhoof addressed this and I must be doing some math wrong.