Shamanaut

This is Daidalos' last BT clear (Except Illidan)

Daidalos - WWS

Nature's Guardian procced exactly *3* times the entire night.

2 of those were on High Warlord Najentus. Neither of those made a difference in terms of saving him due to the nature of the fight.

Daidalos took a total of 237k damage that would have been mitigated by elemental warding. 23,700 additional damage throughout a 4 hour raid. Of all his deaths, only the first was one that might have been mitigated by elemental warding, and that is assuming that a heal would have landed OR a tank/lock would have banished the elemental that decided to melt his face.

Daidalos chose 2/2 imp reinc and 2/2 Nature's Guardian. I took 1/2 imp reinc (Because there really was no where else worth the point) and 3/3 Focused mind. I did this explicitly to compliment Daidalos in his spec. It is for the exact same reason that one of us stays full shadow and one stays full healing on Azgalor.

The other thing that is being missed in the DPS discussion is the effect of the additional agility on the entire raid with a Survival hunter and expose weakness. Again, it is small, but it adds up.

So, the net result is trading 30k of damage over the night for 30k damage every 10 minutes for the raid. To me, that seems to be a no brainer.

When you also realize that as raid dps goes up, the need for survivability drops, it is a win - win situation, provided (As we've stated repeatedly) that you don't need the survivability AND you are routinely grouping with hunters and feral druids.

 

Skyhoof

The 0-12-49 spec is completely viable for raiding. I'll admit I was a bit skeptical when Shamanaut first posted but when you look at the WWS data you can see there's no drop in their ability to heal. Yes, they are losing some survivability but they are both skilled enough players that they can do without the talents of Elemental Warding and Nature's Guardian.

I'm keeping my spec 8-0-53 at the moment. It works for me given that I like to occassionally PVP without respeccing and do a lot of healing in 5-mans and 10-mans where aggro is an issue. However, I would not hesitate to respec 0-12-49 should I suddenly find myself in a party with a bunch of hunters and feral druids for the night. It would be 100 gold well spent to boost DPS.

What makes this game so interesting is that there is not one way to succeed. You can play your class in several ways and still be an effective healer -- as Daidalos and Shamanaut have proven.

 

Shamanaut

That is, until someone else figures out another tweak to the spec sheet and shows a different way to heal even better. Or blizzard tweaks something in the tree and sends months of theorycrafting down the drain.

I can definitely tell you that mages *HATE* 8-0-53 in PvP. The most important thing to realize is exactly what was said about there being different ways to succeed. The hardest part is becoming a master of all of them and understanding each. I truly understand the 8-0-53 and 0-0-61 specs and what they bring. I used to run 0-0-61.

One of these days when I know we can afford it, I might go 8-0-53 for a few weeks just to compare the survivability numbers directly to Daidalos' on the same raid. It would definitely provide the best direct comparison of the two specs on the same raid. It would probably provide the most meaningful numbers for this discussion.

 

Mekias

I've been looking around but can't find out if anyone's asked this question.

Is the only difference between the Royal Nightseye and the Royal Shadowsong Amethyst +2 healing?

In other words, is the 2 mp5 from the Nightseye the exact same as the 2 mp5 from the Shadowsong Amethyst? Or is the Nightseye like 1.9 mp5 and the Amethyst like 2.4 m5 or something.

 

Shinwei

It's exactly as the tooltip says. The only difference between the two is 2 points of +healing.

 

Shamanaut

It's just +2 healing. The incredibly small increase in #'s for epic gems are one of my pet peeves about the itemization of gems. I'd think +15 healing and +4mp5 compared to +9/+2 would make it a truly epic gem compared to the blue equivalent.

 

◊ zeidrich

Well, uncommon gems are 6 item points, rare gems are 8 item points and epic gems are 10 item points.

The Royals are anomalous. Mana/5 is valued at about 2.5 item points per mana/5. So the green lustrous gem is 2 mana/5, the blue lustrous gem is 3 mana/5, and the epic gem is 4 mana/5.

Each combination color gem uses 1/2 of the value of each regular gem. So in the case of royals you should have have

Royal Shadow Draenite: 7 healing 1 mana/5
Royal Nightseye: 9 healing, 1.5 mana/5
Royal Shadowsong Amethyst: 11 healing, 2 mana/5

But of course you can't have half a mana/5. So they round it up. This makes royal nightseye overbudget. And in fact, it's probably the best blue gem you can get as a healer because of that.

But that means when you get to epic gems, and it's back into the correct budget, it looks less appealing, and that is when healers start to see other gems look more appealing.

 

hozzer

It looks like you are turning that ratio around. The numbers you referenced are stat weights, and using the numbers provided in this thread of 3.75 for mp5 and 1.1 for +healing, you'd get a ratio of 3.41 heal per mp5, meaning your are underevaluating the mana portion of int by a factor of 10 or more.

Thus,

should be:

1 int = .33 heal + .1375 heal (crit) + 0.72675625 heal (3.41 heal/mp5 * 0.213125 mp5) = 1.19425625 healing

 

Skyhoof

If that's true then the value of Int in the stat weights should be .9167 (based on 1.1 healing) -- meaning it was undervalued originally. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm working on a set of stat weights for shaman at entry-level (T4), mid-level (T5) and end-game (T6). The value arrived at for Int using this mathematical method might be a good value to use for the entry-level stat weights. My "gear-based" method came up with a value of 1.0 for Intellect at the entry-level. But the T4 model also values +healing at 1.0.

I'll try to get the new stat weights up once I run a few more simulations. However, I can't see giving Intellect more weight for a shaman at the mid-point in the game. Thoughts?

 

hozzer

From a strictly mathcrafting point of view, once you've established subjective values for healing and mp5, then int should have an objective value for a fight of a given duration.

 

Beta

Im interested haste gear benefits on normal fights BT/Hyjal, not just Teron or EoS. At the moment I dont have enough haste gear to test it myself, so would like to hear experienced players values how much they can output HPS fights like Council, illidan or Najentus.

So, HPS, lenght of fight and armor profile would be nice. Also did you had SP on group or not (WWS data would be best). I do realise that healing is group work and performance of other healers effect your effective HPS, but still it would give some nice guide lines.

Not want to go depate how useful MP5 nowdays is but I still feel haste gear lacks it to be "better" than normal gear. Maybe its due the fack I mainly use LHW/CH max rank not HW unless direct tank healing or similar.

 

• Raut

You can never, ever have too much +heal. Once you reach X mp5 and >10k mana, mp5 and int become redundant.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Shamanaut

I thorougly agree. You can not just assign a flat value for mp5 and int.

Both of these stats have a diminishing return. When you are no longer running out of mana, additional mp5 is worthless, and int is simply a crit boost and nothing more. I think that is the biggest thing that is currently overlooked in all of the formula's I see thrown around for theorycrafting. They simply do not account for this diminishing return so you see people with 350 or more mp5 while raid buffed searching for more.

 

Kastr

The way I see haste is, it's not flat out better than mp5 gear. It is, however, better in situations where you don't have any mana problems. Basically, if you're in a shadow priest group then a lot of your mp5 gear is wasted and should be partially replaced by haste gear. So, in addition to stacking +heal in situations where mana is not an issue you can also stack haste which provides a nice increase to your hps.

 

Shamanaut

At least until the Shadowpriest pulls aggro and dies

Seriously though, take a look at the WWS I posted for Daidalos up at the top of page 13. He is using a max haste set for most of the trash, and switching to a set with less haste for longer boss encounters.

The interesting thing about haste is that it has a similar effect to +heal in increasing your total output during encounter, but it ALSO reduces the effect of mp5 and int as it increases burn rate. As haste goes up, your need for mp5 and/or int will increase.

I'd be curious as to some of the numbers that the more mathematically inclined in this thread would come up with for a reasonably well geared (Think 2000 +heal and 250 mp5 raid buffed) shaman could expect to use when valuing haste on items.

The other thing to realize is haste does NOTHING for LHW as you are already pounding on the GCD. So if you are one of the shaman that are using LHW more then the average shaman (I'd say 10-15% of your casts), the value of haste would be less compared to a shaman who uses it for 2-3% of their casts.

I also asked Daidalos to post his opinions on this, as he definitely has a better haste set then I do.

 

galzohar

While you might say you need more int/mp5 with more haste, the fact is if you even think about int/mp5 you probably don't want to gear haste in the firstplace. If you ever think about "hmm is casting that heal really worth that mana now?" you're not really benefiting from haste all that much, but would benefit from more mana efficiency (which btw includes +healing as it increases efficiency).
If you really want high on-demand HPS but can't afford to lose the efficiency you lose when using haste gear, +healing gets very powerful in comparison to other stats. You will need less mana to do the same healing and have more burst ability. Haste will, however, increase your burst a lot more than +healing would (due to itemization costs), but not increase your efficiency thus still requiring the same mana to do a certain amount of healing.

I wouldn't look at haste as something that increases burn rate, but rather something that increases HPS without increasing efficiency, while mana increases efficiency and doesn't increase HPS, and +healing increases both. At the end it really depends on 1. what you actually need and 2. what you currently have available (as in, shadow priest+pots would greatly increase the value of +healing over mp5 even for pure efficiency ignoring hps, how much though depends on exactly how much +healing etc you have).

 

Shamanaut

I probably worded that wrong. I believe what I meant to say is

"As your haste goes up, your valuation of int and mp5 will also increase. This value is still subject to the diminishing valuation of int/mp5 as your total int/mp5 reaches a level that you are no longer seeing a benefit from this stat in raiding"

Basically, for the mathematically inclined, a higher personal haste rating would reduce the rate at which mp5/int values approach zero. A shaman with 0 haste may find that they need only 250 mp5 to no longer require anymore mp5, while one with 150 haste may find the zero point of mp5 closer to 300 mp5.

 

Beta

I do understand situational value of haste gear but thats not what Im after.

Like pointed out on longer fights MP5 comes more valuable. Also SP does give you nicely mana but that usually not the case at the end of fight when he might struckle with mana himself or be dead.

Why I ask this is due to fact trying to be better/faster healer. I do use a lot LHW, fights like Illidan and Council its more than 50% overall healing done. I personally feel that shamans and priests with CoH are primary random healers and their job is to keep ppl up while paladins and druids focus more on tanks.

Atm it isnt really that I dont manage to heal ppl in time, I do really well and dont lack mana at all, but having 10% haste would possible let me focus more single target CH with additional jumps and if working well increase HPS around 10%.

That WWS data posted shows really not much, would prefer more individual fights. I see high amount of CH spam, but HPS amounts doesnt impress at all if that is counting overheals. Personally on average I put over 1k hps effective all the time on trash, around 1.1 to 1.4k hps on LHW heavy fights and over 1.6k fights like teron and bloodboil when random healing (from combat meters over whole fight time).

So, back to original question. Even if SP on group and using pots, would it be effective heal with haste gear on "normal" fights and heal more than with mp5 gear.

 

• Raut

Haste is nothing more than getting you HPS(and mana consumption) up and cast time reduced. It does affect LHW because the time from you press the button the when the heal lands goes down. It does nothing for HPS output when using LHW, but LHW is so 2006. CH is the new porno.

If you don't need to reduce your cast-time, you don't need haste. HPS can be gained by +heal. +heal also doubles as regen when your HPS demand is low because of downranking. The way I see it, you need haste gear when you have maxed out your +heal set and still want more HPS. Trying 5 healers for a full BT clear or something. There are no fights in current content that require you to stack haste gear.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Kaytikat

The largest problem with haste for a resto shaman is how to gear for it.

The T6 4pc bonus (5% extra healing from chain heal) is worth so much that you simply can't afford to put haste gear in these slots. For instance, I have the chest from Zul'jin and 4/5 T6 (no helm yet), so even when I want to use my haste gear I use the T6 bonus rather than the haste chest.

That leaves:
[Blessed Band of Karabor]
[Dark Blessing]
[Cloak of Ancient Rituals]

but what else?

 

• Raut

Dual [Blessed Band of Karabor], [Shroud of the Highborne], [Angelista's Sash], etc.

Whatever you find here

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Shamanaut

The only effect on LHW is the first cast, which will be quicker. Every subsequent cast will still be 1.5 seconds later. This effect is so minimal, that it really can be ignored.

CH is very much the way to go, especially since they fixed the targeting of the jumps to be intelligent and not just random. Unless you are MT healing, CH should be the majority of your heals. It is just SO much more efficient.


This might be nothing more then my opinion, but stop the LHW spam. I know you are using CH for the flames phase, and if you aren't then you are really REALLY wrong. In the rest of the fight, about the only point where LHW is worth it is a flame burst coupled with the flame debuff. No where else in the fight are you going to loose someone if they get that heal 1 second later, and you are killing efficiency. Especially on one of the longest fights in the game where efficiency matters.

On council, let a paladin worry about the raid in general. Their FoL spell is efficient, our 1.5 second cast isn't. The raid would do better with you being an MT healer and the paladin being the raid healer. Especially since CH on the MT of the melee group will also help heal their random damage, and as long as the MT is about 55-60% health, you can afford to use CH instead of HW (But don't let healing way drop off the MT).

 

• Raut

Unless you are random targeting. You heal will land sooner. I still think this is only usable to look better on meters, not actually useful.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Beta

Have to disagree on paladin being better random healer than shaman. I agree that shamans and priest have armor debuff but they do also heal tanks when spare time or needed. Paladin tho has flash of light and atleast our paladin setup doesnt allow BoL on all ppl which makes it heal like 1.3k? while shamans do heal around 2.2 to 2.3k. Also specially if you have SP in your group spamming LHW even nearly whole fight wont be much problem. Side note tho that we also use shaman to heal paladin tank on council cause CH melee healing effectineves.

 

Shamanaut

Even if you are random targeting, only the first heal will land sooner. Every other heal will still be 1.5 seconds after that.

Assuming your haste gets your LHW to 1.0 seconds exactly, your heals will be at

1.0
2.5
4.0
5.5
7.0
8.5
10.0

With no haste your heals are at
1.5
3.0
4.5
6.0
7.5
9.0
10.5

Assume you do 2k per LHW. That means your HPS in the first example is 14000/10 = 1400. In the second it is 14000/10.5 = 1333. You've basically gained 67 HPS in a 10 second fight. This gain falls dramatically as the fight goes on and approaches 0 rapidly. Maybe, just maybe you'd save a tank at some point and therefore save the raid with the faster LHW, but I can't see it. Compare that to Chain heals where dropping from 2.5 to 2.0 seconds would have a dramatic effect. Heals in the same fight would be at

2.0
4.0
6.0
8.0
10.0

and with no haste

2.5
5.0
7.5
10.0

Assuming each chain heal was for 4k total, you would have 2000 HPS in the first example and 1600 in the second. And this spread would remain throughout the entire fight. That means your haste is increasing your chain heal (Or healing wave) in direct proportion to the reduction of cast time (In this case a 25% increase in HPS is a result of a 25% faster cast time). A 33% decrease in cast time of LHW only increases HPS by 5% on a short fight and on a longer fight it increases it by what is effectively zero.