TheSilverHand

Odd, it's the exact opposite for me. When a priest casts PoH I will always get the 5 green buttons on the four party members + priest, but CoH is the one I never see (maybe since it's instant cast it doesn't register as "XX Priest begins to cast Circle of Healing on XX Raider"?)

For the second question, there isn't a healer in my guild who doesn't use Clique, and Grid picks up incoming heals just fine.

 

Antus

As stated, Grid will show incoming heals, but only from people also using Grid. You do not have to be targeting the person for Grid to display an incoming heal either. It works with Clique. I don't have a definitive list of heals Grid will track as incoming, but I do know it doesn't track every incoming heal. Oddly enough, one of the heals it does not track as incoming is Chain Heal.

 

Zarcath

I have a request.

I'd like to convince some friends that going into BWL for T2 is worth while. Could someone come up with a theoretical model for level 80? Based on speculated increases to base chain heal at level 80, using level 60-70 increase as a basis for comparison. And based on current +healing/mp5/stats.

Since it's percentage based, would there ever be a time when the loss would be greater then the gain? Do you imagine Blizzard might go back and nerf T2 set bonus if we're using it at level 80?

 

Yekkom

You are right if you cast one very 3 seconds but if you are spamming the heals the hps will be much higher. An easy test of this is use HealingWave 1 (a 1.0 second cast with 1.5 second GCD) and spam it for a set period of time. Then do the same with a LesserHealingWave 1 (a 1.5 second cast with 1.5 second GCD). This will simulate a 33% haste effect (1.5X33%= .5 seconds).

In a 2 minute test I had 71 of the 1.0 second casts but only 60 of the 1.5 second cast.

This simple test shows an approximate increase of 18% to HPS if you used haste with similar rank lessers. If a few more can test and verify my results please post what you came up with. In single target (raid spread out) healing fights with many taking damage can see haste as very viable but very mana intensive.

Not saying Lesser are the way to go though. A HealingWave with haste will get a bonus as will the ChainHeals and using the most efficient heal will save mana if time allows.

Edit: This test was faulty please read my second post below.

 

Shamanaut

Yekkom, I don't understand what you are saying, because it doesn't make sense to me. You are telling me that you cast more 1.0 speed spells in 2 minutes then 1.5 speed spells?

That doesn't make much sense because the GCD and spell casting is all handled client side so lag is not an issue. In both cases the GCD would not free you to cast an additional spell any faster. You should be getting 90 spell casts in 2 minutes. Only landing 60 tells me that on average you are half a second behind the GCD during this test, so we aren't testing true spamming. I think you just got luckier with the 1.0 second casts (And you still missed 19 possible casts in 2 minutes) but the mechanics of the game are such that 1.5 second spells finish exactly when the GCD comes up (At least since the spellcasting change that moved things client side).

 

Yekkom

Shamanaut, even with client side have never seen (with no haste) chainheals going faster than 3.0 seconds per cast even when I spam as fast as I can. Same with lessers averaging 2.0 seconds each. Maybe I need a better macro or something to cast at optimum on them. So many things to learn . All I ask is try it out and if I am wrong boo on me as I deserve it. Test is easy to do. If a macro fixes my casting time issue I learned something good and useful today.

 

Shamanaut

I'll do some testing in a bit. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it doesn't make sense based on what I know.

 

Yekkom

My apologies, how I did the test was faulty. Used quartz and hit when to red but with more reading found if I constantly hit the buttons could get more heals out. With new test hit 78 in 2 minutes with HealingWave 1 and 72 with the LesserHealing. Do not understand why I am still getting a larger number on 1.0 seconds casts or how to get true time casts out.

How do you get true time casts (ie 1.5 second ones casting in 1.5 seconds)? Even hitting buttons as fast as I could was not happening.

Continue to my next post as these numbers are operator error still please.

 

• Vema

Speculating about the next expansion, and the relative power of chain heal, is far beyond any information available. Between possible new skills, talents, set bonuses, raid mechanics and scaling this is just too many "What IF's". The Tier 6 set bonuses also scale very well and are itemizated well enough they could last well into 80 depending on the above.


Posts earlier in this thread show that using the 3 piece T2 set outweighs the loss currently, given specific circumstances.

 

Skyhoof

I also would appreciate any suggestions on how to cast heals faster. I currently use Quartz to determine when to start casting the next spell. However, I still seem to be the slow poke in my guild. Spamming the key does seem to improve cast time but I'm not really a fan of constantly mashing buttons. It's fine for a particularly intensive phase of a fight but not something I want to do for 5 hours a night.

Could frames per second be a factor? What if we are just not seeing the red portion of the Quartz bar fast enough or a drop in a players heath? I normally get about 15 frames per second but that drops to 5-6 during a raid. Latency is usually 300ms and that doesn't seem to be impacted by whether I'm in a raid or not.

 

Fodla

An unfortunate factor of having low fps and high latency probably means quartz is 'very much behind'.
Unfortunately, i don't think you have any other option to increase accuracy on recasts at those frame rates apart from 'mashing buttons'.
I tend to get between 5-15 fps in raids and certainly at the lower end at times, using Grid/Clique combo, with Pitbull castingtimes on the player frame, i can start casting again when the pitbull timer is 3/4 full.

Do you have too many addons? It was certainly a factor for me. Try going back to basics and rebuilding the addon folder and only include or switch on what you really need for raiding.

 

galzohar

If you get less than 12 FPS you're getting a clear and direct hit to your reaction time by the simple fact you get slower pictures on the screen than your brain can process. I'm not sure exactly how much FPS you need to effectively eliminate the slower reaction time effect of low FPS, but it's definitely somwhere >12. Having 5 frames/sec means you lose up to 0.2s when it comes to seeing the info on time. Again this isn't completely scientific and can probably be better explained but it's enough to show you how low FPS definitely make you "the slow poke".

 

Daidalos

I do have quartz but for raid healing I find it more important to switch targets quickly. I know others are using clique but I simply use mouse over healing macro and Pitbull. While my current heal is going over I continuosly change who I am hovering on according to dmg they take and if other heals land. I usually end up changing targets 2-3 times before my next heal is cast. If you are doing this and still seem to be the slow poke I'd guess that then its a fps and latency issue. I've always found that between nicely hasted chain heals and continuously chaning targets with mouseover as needed I'm usually one of the first to land a heal on the one who most needs it.

 

Yekkom

With quartz not being updated few resources out there for it now so muddled my way though the GUI. Found if I typed /quartz and then went into latency. Enabled embed and left the Embeded Safety Margin (ESM) of .6 I could use the bar better for faster casts.

I hit next spell (ChainHeal or HealingWave) at 1.0 left and had more casts per minute. Hitting to soon gets "another action in progress" which messes up the next cast till you hit the button again.Turning (ESM) down got more "another action in progress" errors messages. Turning up wasted time casting. Guessing players need to adjust to how they heal.

With Lesser Healing I had another trouble which was easier to fix. An error "spell not ready yet" came up when bloodlust was on. This is fixable by doing a macro

/cast Lesser Healing Wave(Rank 7)
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Making spell totally spamable. This second line did not help higher cast time heals though which gave "another action in progress" error.

Shamanaut: You are completely right, there is no haste gains from casts faster than the GCD. My first numbers were operator error. Closed in on all heals to optimal numbers with above adjustments to my heals.

 

Vistol

Skyhoof, not that is a huge issue but i don't get why you say shaman should never use Auslese's Light Channeler?

Given that its on use ability comes out to 5.5 Mp5 (it's really 5.97 but lets round down for arguments sake) assuming one cast a spell that costs at least 215 mana, which due to its on use nature one could take as a given. Using values from your gear guide we get a Healing Equivalent Points (HEP) of ~83.6.

Some of the starter trinkets listed above it like the Ancient Draenei Arcane Relic (~47.1 HEP), Xi'ri's Gift (~62.7HEP), and even Heavenly Inspiration(77.5 HEP) have much lower values. In fact the Oshu'gun Relic (88.5 HEP) is not much better. Granted that lower end shaman just starting Kara might value mp5 more and thus the Heavenly Inspiration could rank higher, but i don't see it being a bad trinket.

Also given the fact that it could be picked up while leveling, or grinding the very necessary thrallmar rep, off a very easy boss I can't see why people should avoid it early in their healing careers.

Anyone using 2*[Lower City Prayerbook] (well not a good idea in and of itself) would be foolish not switch out one for [Auslese's Light Channeler] and trading 7+heal for 5.5 mp5.

Just my 2 cents,
cheers

 

Iod

Earlier in the thread there was discussion of a Restoration Shaman's role on the Void Reaver fight. I'm trying to build my Resto Shaman alt up to the point of being a viable alternative to bring on raid nights where we're short on healers (or when our one Enhancement Shaman is gone). For the 'Eat the poundings and spam CH' strategy what do you all consider the minimum +healing/MP5 threshold for doing such a thing? As an addendum, how much Health/Mana (buffed) would you recommend for this situation?

 

Skyhoof

I love it when someone makes a well thought-out, logical argument and backs it up with numbers. The trinket has been moved to its proper category. I probably put it in the wrong place when I redid the trinket section. If you look at the list I keep on the official forums, it’s ranked higher there.

 

Skyhoof

There is no magic number. It depends on the DPS of your raid, how many healers you bring, etc.

I would recommend downloading Binkenstein's Shamstats and inputting your shaman's current gear and finding out how long they can spam Rank 5 chain heal and Rank 4 chain heal using the various options provided on the spreadsheet (shadow priest, etc). Then, compare that time to how long it takes your guild to kill Void Reaver.

 

• Binkenstein

FYI: even with a spriest I could still go OOM on that fight (this was prior to WS/MS changes however)

 

galzohar

Increasing "time till oom", as I've already stated a million times on various threads on these forums, is a very bad indicator for how much healing you can actually do in a given fight. Going for "10% higher 'time till oom'" is a lot less usefull than going for "10% more healing/mana" or even "10% more healing done using all your mana in X fight".
Fact is the effectiveness of extra "time till oom" depends on your stats, and that means you need to go back and calculate how much mp5 you have etc - might as well just forget about the "time till oom" number and just stick to calculating how much healing you can do with the mana you have available in the said fight - and maximize that instead.

 

Skyhoof

Yes, it does seem that you have tried to make that argument many times on this forum. I thought this was an especially good response:

http://elitistjerks.com/586029-post427.html

This fight may be very different for a paladin than it is for a shaman. Melee takes fairly small but constant damage. You cast chain heal non-stop. This is quite a drain on the shaman’s resources (although made easier with the changes to WS/MS)

Melee does a ton of DPS in this fight because ranged casters are running from orbs. You cannot afford to let them die. You don’t need a lot of +healing to be able to efficiently keep melee topped off. However, you do need quite a bit of mana. And you may not get a shadow priest in your group that night.

If you “just stick to calculating how much healing you can do with the mana you have available” then you will be calculating at approximately what point in the fight your raid is going to run into trouble.

There are many encounters where +healing is more important than your mana regen. Void Reaver is not one of them for shaman.

 

Slothrop

I don't have a lot of tier gear, but I do have about the best that badges and BG/Arena can get for me. I've socketed and enchanted my stuff to the max. But I still don't know how I compare with the typical "T4-class", "T5-class" or "T6-class" resto shaman.

Can someone provide me some representative unbuffed numbers for each of these, in terms of typical bonus heals, typical mp5 (when casting), and typical health? I'd like to know ballpark unbuffed #'s for each of T4-class, T5-class and T6-class. (I'm especially curious because a lot of T5 pieces, such as the helm, seem so poor compared with badge/arena rewards or even T4!)

 

galzohar

If you can do more healing in 10 minutes with X +healing than with Y mana regen, X +healing is better even if Y regen increases you to infinite spamming ability. Bigger heals and more heals are simply interchangeable, especially when you can downrank but not nescessarily. Fact is healing 3k every 3s or healing 3.1k every 3.05s is nearly identical, even though the 3.1k every 3.05s setup would run you oom before the end of the fight if you spam it every 3s. Fact is the 3.1k every 3.05s setup simply did more healing throughout the fight and gets the job done better, even though it has less of an abilty to "spam without going oom" - which is a completely irrelevent ability.

 

Skyhoof

Yes, the T5 helm is not my favorite piece of gear. If you are having issues with mana, you probably still want to wear the T4 helm. However, the T5 helm has 121 +healing when socketed, compared with 93 +healing in the T4 helm when socketed. The T5 also has some crit. So as mp5 and Intellect become less important, the Tier 5 actually starts looking a little better (it never gets THAT much better).

If you have a lot of arena gear, you probably have more stamina than your average shaman but far less mp5. The +healing is probably comprable. Many of the new badge rewards are about the equivalent of Tier 5 gear (or better).

On a seperate note...

I have added stat weights for shaman at three stages of the game. I took the idea from Malan’s Enhancement post. I feel pretty confident about the Tier 4 and Tier 5 values. However, I'm still considering the weight I gave Haste in Tier 6. Appreciate your feedback and comments.

Here’s the new information I added to the main post:

To generate a list of gear using the rankings, I recommend Loot Rank. Be sure to enter the meta gem value or it will use the Bracing Earthstorm. For more control over gear rankings (such as playing with different gems and set bonuses), I highly recommend Binkenstein’s Shamstats.

Meta = 74.625 (based off IED proc equalling 17.5 mp5)

Entry-Level Shaman (Tier 4)
Stam = 0.20
Int = 1.00
Spirit = 0.1
Healing = 1.0
Crit = 0.25
Mp5 = 4.5
Haste = 0.0
Armor = 0.01
Note: These values will cause Lootrank to choose Royal Nightseyes over Teardrop Living Rubies.

Mid-Level Shaman (Tier 5)
Stam = 0.30
Int = 0.75
Spirit = 0.1
Healing = 1.1
Crit = 0.5
Mp5 = 3.75
Haste = 0.75
Armor = 0.01

High-Level Shaman (Tier 6)
Or grouped with a shadow priest

Stam = 0.30
Int = 0.55
Spirit = 0.1
Healing = 1.3
Crit = 0.5
Mp5 = 3.0
Haste = 2.0
Armor = 0.01

 

Daidalos

For me in t6 content and gear I am currently running about 2300 +healing and 130 mp5 unbuffed (no water shield no totem) and 120+ haste rating on trash on bosses I switch some haste for better stats (stam / regen) as needed. For pure regen trinkets I use alchemist stone and eye of gruul or fathom brooch if needed. So those are another ~70 mp5 equivlant for a loss of about 150 healing. I think its good to be able to switch up gear a little as needed. Regen isn't always better and pure +heal isn't always better. Adapt to the strat and swap gear as needed.


Well they changed our regen enough that typical t4 and t5 would be different than I was at back then.
Here was my +healing for those levels though.
For t4 content ~1300-1500 +healing.
For t5 content ~1500-1900 +helaing.


For me that mp5 rating is way too high. With 2 pc t6 bonus and a spreist its hard to dump mana fast enough with chain heals unless I use hasted CH5. I'd imagine shaman still learning t6 content would value mp5 higher than I do though. I value +heal and haste over all other stats. Also my guild also tends to do crazy "Everyone stand in the AoE for higher dps. Shaman chain heal to keep them up." strats when HPS is my highest priority.