mp5 is wasted in a group with a spriest, +heal is never wasted. When you struggle with regen issues, downrank. This is pretty much the mantra for a resto shaman, IMO.
Does anyone have some WWS that uses +Healing over +MP5?
From my PoV, +healing loses on average 40% due to overhealing while MP5 always scales. Granted chain heal is +125% +healing due to the 3 jumps, but if i have a +22 healing gem I really only end up gaining about +14 in healing on chain heal, and significantly less on LHW or HW. Only thing not accounted for here is the +Heal on ES.
Last edited by Nitrogen : 01/29/08 at 2:55 PM.
Reason: quoted wrong person
From my PoV, +healing loses on average 40% due to overhealing while MP5 always scales. Granted chain heal is +125% +healing due to the 3 jumps, but if i have a +22 healing gem I really only end up gaining about +14 in healing on chain heal, and significantly less on LHW or HW. Only thing not accounted for here is the +Heal on ES.
Chain is is 125%? How did you arrive at that? You not including talents?
chain heal amount
= [base amount + (2.5/3.5)*(plusHeal)]*(1.1)*(1.2)
[top] base amount*1.1*1.2 +(plusHeal)*(2.5/3.5)*(1.1)*(1.2)
base *1.32 +(plusheal)(.942)
So 94% on the initial heal then adding the other 2 jumps
.942 + .4714 + .2357 = 1.649 or about 165% of plus healing.
I have no idea how you got 14 healing from a +22 gem.
Also HW with 3 stacks of healing way yeilds 3/3.5 *1.1 *1.18 = 111% increase from +heal. ES gets .3 of +healing per charge for a total of 3.00 or 300% +healing.
As stated above the gains from +healing won't translate into overheal if you down rank. Stacking healing gives you the option of conservaing mana via downranking or high HPS via top rank spamming. Mp5 gives you no choices.
From my PoV, +healing loses on average 40% due to overhealing while MP5 always scales. Granted chain heal is +125% +healing due to the 3 jumps, but if i have a +22 healing gem I really only end up gaining about +14 in healing on chain heal, and significantly less on LHW or HW. Only thing not accounted for here is the +Heal on ES.
In how many of these fights did you run out of Mana?
Looking at the nearly 6 minute gorefiend with you in the Melee group, you apparently only used 1 Mana pot. I can't think you are running out of Mana, on what is arguably the most mana draining of our fights when you are only using 1 Mana pot.
Your math is right about all of the other things, but you fail to take into account that if you are not running out of mana, mp5 is useless. Your raid also seems to have low DPS, which would increase your mp5 needs. All of our kills are twice as fast as yours, which will reduce my desire for mp5 compared to yours. I do think as a guild, you need to look at some of the other reports out there and figure out where you are failing in DPS. Gorefiend should never be a 5 minute fight. It looks like you are running BT with 10 healers, which seems to be a lot for me. I think if you can increase DPS of your raids by 10-15% (And hence drop kill times by 10-15%) you'll find you will really be preferring +healing over mp5.
In your situation though, with such long kills, I can absolutely understand why you are placing a higher value on mp5.
MP5 also doesn't always scale. If you are standing around and can not get off of max mana no matter what you cast, mp5 is no longer scaling (Except maybe on Kazrogal).
Chain is is 125%? How did you arrive at that? You not including talents?
chain heal amount
= [base amount + (2.5/3.5)*(plusHeal)]*(1.1)*(1.2)
[top] base amount*1.1*1.2 +(plusHeal)*(2.5/3.5)*(1.1)*(1.2)
base *1.32 +(plusheal)(.942)
So 94% on the heal heal then adding the other 2 jumps
.942 + .4714 + .2357 = 1.649 or about 165% of plus healing.
I have no idea how you got 14 healing from a +22 gem.
Also HW with 3 stacks of healing way yeilds 3/3.5 *1.1 *1.18 = 111% increase from +heal. ES gets .3 of +healing per charge for a total of 3.00 or 300% +healing.
As stated above the gains from +healing won't translate into overheal if you down rank. Stacking healing gives you the option of conservaing mana via downranking or high HPS via top rank spamming mp5 gives you no choices.
+22 healing
-coefficient%
-overheal%
Does anyone have WWS where they down rank chain heal on some of these fights (even illidan)? I've read plenty that people down rank, would like to see the end result.
In how many of these fights did you run out of Mana?
Looking at the nearly 6 minute gorefiend with you in the Melee group, you apparently only used 1 Mana pot. I can't think you are running out of Mana, on what is arguably the most mana draining of our fights when you are only using 1 Mana pot.
Your math is right about all of the other things, but you fail to take into account that if you are not running out of mana, mp5 is useless. Your raid also seems to have low DPS, which would increase your mp5 needs. All of our kills are twice as fast as yours, which will reduce my desire for mp5 compared to yours. I do think as a guild, you need to look at some of the other reports out there and figure out where you are failing in DPS. Gorefiend should never be a 5 minute fight. It looks like you are running BT with 10 healers, which seems to be a lot for me. I think if you can increase DPS of your raids by 10-15% (And hence drop kill times by 10-15%) you'll find you will really be preferring +healing over mp5.
In your situation though, with such long kills, I can absolutely understand why you are placing a higher value on mp5.
MP5 also doesn't always scale. If you are standing around and can not get off of max mana no matter what you cast, mp5 is no longer scaling (Except maybe on Kazrogal).
We typically run 8, and on Gurtogg we'll add a 1 or 2 more. We just killed illidan, so we haven't been in BT for very long. That may be part of the reason our fights are going longer.
In any event, my original question was regarding the use of +Healing gems over +MP5. I understand your reasoning now.
I do not agree with you. +heal is wasted if you spam max rank in a raid with more than enough healing power, yes, but what about your +22 healing gems when you switch to rank 4 CH? You still have massive healing power, but you have reduced your cost by 105 mana per cast(without set bonuses, talents or totems). This is 210 mp5 in a spam situation(yeas, you can have some lag, but you often have some haste as well).
To counter for downranking you need:
rank 4:
(605+691)/2 = 648
rank 5:
(826+942)/2 = 884
Coefficient:
2.5/3.5 = 0.714
Heal needed to compensate:
X*0.714 = 884 - 648
X = 330
If you can sacrifice mp5 to gain 330 heal, you can downrank to rank 4 while having the same output. You also gain 210 mp5 in a spam situation from this, and 105 mana saved with just the odd CH cast. You also gain the ability to have a massive HPS output if you have the mana for it.
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
Does anyone have WWS where they down rank chain heal on some of these fights (even illidan)? I've read plenty that people down rank, would like to see the end result.
Only phase 2 of Illidan is chain friendly. I dont' think you will be able to get much out of that. I'd post but I hardly ever down rank just due to not needing mana. Down ranking not only results in more efficient spells in heal/mana but also reduces overheal. For exmaple spamming chain heals down ranking from CH5 to CH4 saves 200 mp5 for a 300 healing difference on the first target per cast. On healing wave down ranking from HW12 to HW10 saves 200 mp5 at a loss of ~800 healing per cast.
Having 40% over heal is extremely high and I would only expect this if you have more than enough mana (This happens to me alot). If most of your healers have 40% over heal you can most likely replace a healer with dps and just kill the mob faster. If you are worried about mana and blindly spam your top tank heal with no regard to efficiency then sure plus healing isn't beneficial, but who does that?
I do not agree with you. +heal is wasted if you spam max rank in a raid with more than enough healing power, yes, but what about your +22 healing gems when you switch to rank 4 CH? You still have massive healing power, but you have reduced your cost by 105 mana per cast(without set bonuses, talents or totems). This is 210 mp5 in a spam situation(yeas, you can have some lag, but you often have some haste as well).
To counter for downranking you need:
rank 4:
(605+691)/2 = 648
rank 5:
(826+942)/2 = 884
Coefficient:
2.5/3.5 = 0.714
Heal needed to compensate:
X*0.714 = 884 - 648
X = 330
If you can sacrifice mp5 to gain 330 heal, you can downrank to rank 4 while having the same output. You also gain 210 mp5 in a spam situation from this, and 105 mana saved with just the odd CH cast. You also gain the ability to have a massive HPS output if you have the mana for it.
What you're saying may be true, but I have yet to see a WWS of this being done. I've looked at other guilds WWS reports to see what rank CH the resto shammys where using, and nobody was down ranking (at least they looked on par with CH5).
P1 Illy is the MTs job. CH work just fine in P2, 3,4 and 5. You have situations where DPS clutter up to DPS down demons or be in range of Illidan. It's a cheap spell and there is always the odd chance it will reach a second target. But of course you can LHW it if you want.
Edit: Oh, I've been close to 60% overhealed on raids. Who cares? I have mana.
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
After reading through some posts on the WWS Thread, part of the issue is the number of healers we have. We had a 6 healer night in Hyjal a while back and the overheal % was very low. Well in any event, if anyone has some WWS that they wouldn't mind sharing, I would love to take a look at em.
P1 Illy is the MTs job. CH work just fine in P2, 3,4 and 5. You have situations where DPS clutter up to DPS down demons or be in range of Illidan. It's a cheap spell and there is always the odd chance it will reach a second target. But of course you can LHW it if you want.
Edit: Oh, I've been close to 60% overhealed on raids. Who cares? I have mana.
Yeah sure I do CH some on the other phases I'm just saying hurt grouped up people isn't constant. People speficially spread out for flames burst. I don't think I've ever hit 60% but we bring less healers to content once its on farm.
Nitrogen I have alot of WWS parses where I use CH4. Pretty much any of them before I got 2 pc t6 (about 3 weeks ago). keep in mind that when you have 2300+healing ch4 might *look* like a CH5
After reading through some posts on the WWS Thread, part of the issue is the number of healers we have. We had a 6 healer night in Hyjal a while back and the overheal % was very low. Well in any event, if anyone has some WWS that they wouldn't mind sharing, I would love to take a look at em.
What you're saying may be true, but I have yet to see a WWS of this being done. I've looked at other guilds WWS reports to see what rank CH the resto shammys where using, and nobody was down ranking (at least they looked on par with CH5).
/agree with Daidalos above
You probably have seen it many times in WWS reports and just didn't know what you were seeing was downranking. You would need to armory each of the healers in the WWS (and hope the logged out in their raid gear) and then calculate what their average CH4 and CH5 would be with raid buffs.
Also, it's not as though most shaman spam only CH4 for the entire fight. There might be periods where they switched to CH5 and then went back to CH4. This would make it difficult to tell from a WWS report, unless you could ask the shaman directly what spell they used.
Just a reminder from the main post:
Rank 4 gets the full benefit of your plus healing since it is learned at level 61 and is not subject to the down ranking penalty. By using Rank 4, you reduce your mana costs by 19% but lose only 10% of your healing power.
Gratz on the sub-10 minute Illidan kill
But more importantly, how did you kill the Dragonhawk boss in ZA so fast? Is that with popping all the eggs on one side and then the other side? Or did you do something crazy and let all the eggs pop while you drilled the boss?
I'm not sure if I am a good example. I am usually paired with a spriest and just spam Ch4 alot. If you are worried about mana conservation my being in a spirest and spamming heals isn't the best example, but Ch5 has been a "only use in emergency* button for me since I first did the heal/mana comparisons in starting 25 mans. Only 2 pc t6 changed that for me since ch4 scales at the same rate as ch5 as Skyhoof reiterated.
Originally Posted by Skyhoof
/awed by the DPS
Gratz on the sub-10 minute Illidan kill
But more importantly, how did you kill the Dragonhawk boss in ZA so fast? Is that with popping all the eggs on one side and then the other side? Or did you do something crazy and let all the eggs pop while you drilled the boss?
We pop one side then let the rest pop at 35%. Frost trap + earth bind is down. Lock seeds and pally BoPs him. Also both shaman blow fire ele. If needed bear tank aoe taunts.
mp5 also gets wasted by your % overhealing, so overhealing is not a reason to stack more mp5 and less +healing. If you lose 1/2 your heals to overhealing, I can say you're effectively wasting 1/2 your mana.
Overhealing doesn't stand as an argument to not stack +helaing unless all heals you cast just happen to heal for exactly how much your target needs - not realistic.
Additionally, I think MP5 is largely overblown as a stat. If I remember correctly, I had around 150-160 MP5 (unbuffed no MT, no WS) pretty easily in T4 gear. As it stands, I'm in T6 and still have 160 mp5 (not counting Memento).
Assuming I swap out some gear to toss in stuff like tome of diabolic remedy and re-enchant my items, I would probably make out with around 35 more MP5 tops. That's all of 2100 mana or around 5 CH-rank4s more I can toss out in a 5 minute fight. Personally, if you feel that 5 more CH's is necessary for a particular fight, there's probably more going on that needs to be fixed with your raid than your personal healing.
It's not to say you should ignore MP5, but a large majority of the gear we get come with enough MP5 as it is. Barring wearing PVP gear, if you wear mail-healing gear, you should have approximately "enough" MP5 to succeed in most fights. For those who need the "extra" amount, you can always pop full consumables and change your trinkets.
Last edited by Bungmeister : 01/29/08 at 6:13 PM.
Reason: grammar lol
I don't gem exclusively for +heal or + mp5, I usually take the socket bonus. I gem like it was posted in the first post (i think, to lazy to check): 11/2mp5, 22 heal, 11/5 Int depending on the color.
I have a moderate amount of haste (the 2 random rings and the ZA weapon at all times. For EoS I wear my complete haste gear (which adds the neck, shoulders from ZA and a belt from BT).
Most of my healing is CH 1 or 4 - I only use CH 5 when full healing power is needed, because I think that an additional 300 healing on the main target (proportionally less on the jumps) is usually not worth the 100 mana.
To put it differently (I'm just using the numbers from DrDamage, so they might be slightly wrong): I pay 370 Mana (with 2 piece Tier 6) to get 3200 healing on my target (~6400 on all jumps) with CH 4. That would be 8.6 HPM for my target, 17.3 HPM on all targets.
With CH 5 I pay 460 Mana to get 3500 on my target (~7000 on all jumps). That would be 7.6 HPM on my target, 15.2 HPM on all jumps.
Doesn't sound like a huge difference? So let me put it differently.
With CH 5 I pay an additional 90 Mana to get an additional 300 healing on my target (600 on all jumps). That would be 3.3 HPM on my target, 6.6 HPM on all jumps.
Gratz on the sub-10 minute Illidan kill
But more importantly, how did you kill the Dragonhawk boss in ZA so fast? Is that with popping all the eggs on one side and then the other side? Or did you do something crazy and let all the eggs pop while you drilled the boss?
First hatcher hatches one side. The other goes at 30%. Seed the boss and continue. It really takes a pro group because you basically have a race to 0 and the frost trap wearing out. The group that pioneered that strategy failed many, MANY times before they perfected it.
Hello fellow shamans.
I wanted to ask you for help/advice.
Sometimes while healing intensively, when I’m in most need of Water Shield I forget to rebuff it. I use totemtimers and this addon has a reminder, but it doesn’t help. I switched from SCT to Mik’s scrolling combat text for the same reason, but it didn’t help too. Does anyone know any addon with distinctive visual effect and sound, which can help me.
Regards
I use Power Auras, and set up a warning for when WS expires. I've also got notifications for ToW/WoA & Heroism, so when WS goes there's a big blue circle, totems show two smaller red/blue circles, and heroism shows a large green half circle with a counter in the middle of my screen.
I'll still use TotemTimers for the extra WS icon, but PA makes it so much easier to keep track of.
The -20 mana reduction comes off the base spell cost. When you have the Tidal Focus and the first T6 set bonus, the actual mana reduction is below.
Tidal Focus - Mana cost reduced by 19.
T6 Set Bonus w/ Tidal Focus - Mana cost reduced by 17.
Are you sure?
First, I thought Relics were applied before set bonuses. So the Tier 6 set bonus shouldn’t impact the relic.
Second, Rank 1 HW costs 23.75 mana after talents. The totem of the Maelstrom allows you to cast this for free since it reduces the cost by 24 mana. This would imply that the totem is applied after talents.
Shamanaut & Daidalos, awesome stats there... salute on a job well done.
Regarding the raw healing info, I haven't had a chance to look through all the logs but overheal was on par with what I'm seeing (40% - 50%). I still find a balance between +Heal and +MP5 valuable, but am leaning more toward MP5 when I can socket for it.
Well, it was a good discussion... thanks for the feedback.
First, I thought Relics were applied before set bonuses. So the Tier 6 set bonus shouldn’t impact the relic.
Second, Rank 1 HW costs 23.75 mana after talents. The totem of the Maelstrom allows you to cast this for free since it reduces the cost by 24 mana. This would imply that the totem is applied after talents.
Ya, I just looked at the raw numbers on my toon. If I'm not wearing any T6, total mana reduction is 19. Pretty easy to verify this with anyone running Tidal Mastery... and I double checked T6 numbers, mana cost reduction is 17 when equipped.
01/29/08, 2:43 PM
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