How to Heal like a Pro - Page 2

Shinwei · 12/16/07, 5:07 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

MSD gives, on average, roughly 16 spell haste.
IED gives roughly 8 mp5.

The key difference is that when IED procs, the only way the proc is wasted is if you are at full mana. MSD is wasted if you're not chain casting heals (which is why it ends up being semi-useless for healers, the same as the [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle]).

Healing, in my opinion, is about dependability, rather than lucky streaks/procs that DPS prefer.

Thank you for your reply. Another question I have, then, is how spell haste is rated at an incredibly GODLY level for HEP in your Shamstats spreadsheet. It rates [Dark Blessing] higher than my [Lightfathom Scepter], and [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] higher than pretty much every trinket in the game.

If healing is, in your opinion, about dependability, how did you then arrive at these calculations?

Duscha · 12/16/07, 5:17 PM

some advices:

many shaman believe in 0/0/61 is superior to 0/5/56 - 500 base MANA are nothing
4 t6 is like 100+heal
stack as much +heal in gems as possibel
haste >>>> mp5 if sp available

endgame raid-gear: chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Binkenstein · 12/16/07, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Shinwei

Thank you for your reply. Another question I have, then, is how spell haste is rated at an incredibly GODLY level for HEP in your Shamstats spreadsheet. It rates [Dark Blessing] higher than my [Lightfathom Scepter], and [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] higher than pretty much every trinket in the game.

If healing is, in your opinion, about dependability, how did you then arrive at these calculations?

Dependable haste >>>> chance based haste.

Also, there is a difference of 1 int, 12 heal, -30 haste and 11 mp5 when comparing Lightfathom to Dark Blessing. Having an extra 1.9% healing does seem like a big upgrade, doesn't it?
Scarab gets a higher rating because it averages to 32 haste (320*6)/60. Even though it "rates" highly, I would still recommend against it. Healing is more of an art than a science, and I will always choose passive or on-use items over proc based buff items like this because they are unreliable. I would take lower rated trinkets over the Scarab because I have more control over when those extra functions are used.

Also note that I'm currently re-doing the overall calculations at the moment

Originally Posted by Duscha

some advices:

many shaman believe in 0/0/61 is superior to 0/5/56 - 500 base MANA are nothing
4 t6 is like 100+heal
stack as much +heal in gems as possibel
haste >>>> mp5 if sp available

endgame raid-gear: chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Dear god, please, learn to type.
Secondly, putting all of your points into resto is a waste, but you probably didn't read the posts explaining that.
Thirdly, assuming a shadow priest is available drastically gimps you if you don't have one.
Fourthly, how can you have 61 points in resto, but only have one in healing grace??

Skyhoof · 12/16/07, 10:41 PM

Agree that the explanation for Nature's Guardian was inaccurate. I wanted to avoid using the wording in the tooltip because I think it's hard to understand. Here is the revised version.

Nature’s Guardian: This is a great talent with a tool tip that’s difficult to understand. Basically, it will automatically heal you about every 5 to 10 seconds if you are below 30% health. Plus, the heal reduces your threat. And it scales well, restoring 10% of your total health. It’s a must-have talent for resto PVP and highly desirable for shamans who raid.

Will add the 0-0-61 build.

Thank you for your reply. Another question I have, then, is how spell haste is rated at an incredibly GODLY level for HEP in your Shamstats spreadsheet. It rates [Dark Blessing] higher than my [Lightfathom Scepter], and [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] higher than pretty much every trinket in the game.

If healing is, in your opinion, about dependability, how did you then arrive at these calculations?

First, if you take a look at the calculatoins on the HEP tab you'll see how Binkenstein arrived at the values. The math is solid. You could disagree with some of the premises on which the calculations are based. For example, the math assumes you are chain casting heals. However, in many portions of a fight, you pause between heals. Plus the calculations are based on a constant amount of haste. The trinket provides burst haste at unpredictable times. While burst haste may usually benefit DPS, it can occur at moments when no one needs a heal (or doesn't need it any faster at least). That is why I see the trinket has having limited value while haste itself may have great value (if you stack enough of it and have a shadow priest). I haven't done any number crunching but haste seems to be an all or nothing stat. I've gotten a few pieces and have not seen them make much of a difference in my healing. However, if I could get enough haste to reduce my cast times by 20%, I think that would be quite powerful.

The problem would then be calculating the "sweet spot" for haste. It has diminishing returns. The faster your cast time gets, the less it is reduced by additional haste. However, creating such a model is difficult due to the stop and start nature of healing vs. DPS.

doul · 12/16/07, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Agree that the explanation for Nature's Guardian was inaccurate. I wanted to avoid using the wording in the tooltip because I think it's hard to understand. Here is the revised version.

Nature’s Guardian: This is a great talent with a tool tip that’s difficult to understand. Basically, it will automatically heal you about every 5 to 10 seconds if you are below 30% health. Plus, the heal reduces your threat. And it scales well, restoring 10% of your total health. It’s a must-have talent for resto PVP and highly desirable for shamans who raid.

I'd say that description is as misleading as the tooltip (can't say I had any problems understanding the talent though, but i can see how it can be a bit confusing). You're not mentioning that it is a proc on taking damage, which was the thing I found wrong in the first version.

And regarding the [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle], it's very dependant on what fight you're up for and what role you have in that fight. For trash it's quite unbeatable in my eyes, since that's more or less about spamming Chain Heal nonstop and there are bosses that are close to that scenario as well. The non proc stat on the scarab (70 healing) is also quite nice for a trinket slot, and even if you can't rely on a proc I can't see many situations where a haste proc would be bad.
I fully agree that controllable haste (or regen/+heal/whatever, for that matter) is much better than random procs though, even if I have a tendency to forget to use trinkets too often.

Also, regarding Healing Grace, I have to say that I've skipped it in my later talent builds since I don't do that many 5man instances anymore and in raids I don't really have threat issues from heals at the moment. Might come a day when that changes I guess, since it can be handy on certain encounters with add spawning etc. Only time I overaggro is when I throw a heal a few seconds too early on a trash wave in Hyjal, and that's usually just my own fault from being too eager on my buttons.

Kyuki · 12/16/07, 11:45 PM

I really must butt in here with the Meta gem talk.

I really think it's bad saying "Dependable haste >>>> chance based haste.". I respect your work Binkenstein, but as a healer, it's absolutly the opposite imho. It's the very nature of the meta that does it good - not how you work out how much spellhaste it gets effectivly.

What the MSD can do is save lives in a very bursty way during bad moments, and I can assure you that neither the Bracing or the Insightful meta gems can do that, and that alone makes it worth putting up on that list Skyhoofs origional post.

Skyhoof - your very mentioning of Binkensteins Shamstats is good and all, but as you say yourself none of the values can be set in stone in any way because healing is so flexible. This is why it's bad to laber stats and why you have to get a feel (yes a feel, it very much can differ from which guild you play in for example) for what you need and not need.
So basically: It can be missleading.
For example: If you dont struggle with mana why keep the the insightful meta? If you can live without it, why not go with something that can be a lifesaver?
Why gimp your whole gearsetup to be able to attain the +healing meta? Its horrible req makes it less desirable right there.

Healing is so diffrent from DPS when you want to put numbers into play, and math fails at times, simply because of how the nature of the playstyle is. Anyways, what you say about haste: "The faster your cast time gets, the less it is reduced by additional haste" is not true. All spell haste is based on your base spellcasting time (Or did I missunderstood what you were refering to?). So spellhaste is good until you start to butt in with the GCD during spam heal moments.

Dont get me wrong here, you can easily see and show how effective a certain heal is (which you've done with great tables Skyhoof), and thus make sure to use it in a good way.
When healing however we need to account for alot, and thus use diffrent ranks depending on how the raid/tanks take dmg. So weather a spell has better DPM or not when it gets into action gets almost irrelevant, atleast when comparing the same spell like CHrankX vs CHrankY, and HWrankX vs HWrankY, because in the end it is about keeping the raid topped off and using what heal that can heal for most by using the least mana without overhealing - and this differ. Alot.

All in all, I'm not putting down on your work here Skyhoof - I just dont agree on some things written after the main post, and disagree with not putting the MSD in it, and the reasons for that is what I've just presented.

Good job nonetheless

Iku · 12/17/07, 12:01 AM

I prefer the MSD over the other meta gems. While it is unreliable and unpredictable, it's procs seem to come at the perfect moments.
I can't even imagine how often I thought "Wow, that proc timing was awesome". It may be subjective, but I feel the MSD has helped me quite much.
You can also spam Water Shield while running, e.g. from Doomfires to trigger procs (probably changed, haven't been resto for a few weeks).

If the 26 +heal meta didn't have such strict requirements, I would probably choose that one.

Also, in my opinion Healing Grace and the Subtlety cloak enchant are overrated. While there aren't many alternatives for the enchant, I prefer Focused Mind for bosses like Archimonde and Azgalor. There are few bosses that silence, but it's nice to have.

Kasi · 12/17/07, 12:15 AM

In the old trinket thread I remember that Gurgthock spoke very highly of the Scarab of the Infinite Cycle. While that was a long time ago, I don't think that the reason for it has changed. Very solid healing stats plus very nice burst healing at times. Now longevity trinkets are nice, but if you have the mana you don't need more. Spell haste can sometimes be very handy when you just need to pump out as much heals as you can.

Binkenstein · 12/17/07, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by doul

And regarding the [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle], it's very dependant on what fight you're up for and what role you have in that fight. For trash it's quite unbeatable in my eyes, since that's more or less about spamming Chain Heal nonstop and there are bosses that are close to that scenario as well. The non proc stat on the scarab (70 healing) is also quite nice for a trinket slot, and even if you can't rely on a proc I can't see many situations where a haste proc would be bad.
I fully agree that controllable haste (or regen/+heal/whatever, for that matter) is much better than random procs though, even if I have a tendency to forget to use trinkets too often.

I thought it was good too, until I found out that the proc has a 45 second cooldown (usually being 1ppm).

Originally Posted by Kyuki

I really must butt in here with the Meta gem talk.

I really think it's bad saying "Dependable haste >>>> chance based haste.". I respect your work Binkenstein, but as a healer, it's absolutly the opposite imho. It's the very nature of the meta that does it good - not how you work out how much spellhaste it gets effectivly.

What the MSD can do is save lives in a very bursty way during bad moments, and I can assure you that neither the Bracing or the Insightful meta gems can do that, and that alone makes it worth putting up on that list Skyhoofs origional post.

Skyhoof - your very mentioning of Binkensteins Shamstats is good and all, but as you say yourself none of the values can be set in stone in any way because healing is so flexible. This is why it's bad to laber stats and why you have to get a feel (yes a feel, it very much can differ from which guild you play in for example) for what you need and not need.
So basically: It can be missleading.
For example: If you dont struggle with mana why keep the the insightful meta? If you can live without it, why not go with something that can be a lifesaver?
Why gimp your whole gearsetup to be able to attain the +healing meta? Its horrible req makes it less desirable right there.

Healing is so diffrent from DPS when you want to put numbers into play, and math fails at times, simply because of how the nature of the playstyle is. Anyways, what you say about haste: "The faster your cast time gets, the less it is reduced by additional haste" is not true. All spell haste is based on your base spellcasting time (Or did I missunderstood what you were refering to?). So spellhaste is good until you start to butt in with the GCD during spam heal moments.

Ah, but if MSD does not proc in one of those life or death situations, what use is it? Having Insightful means you can focus less on mp5 for enchants gems, rather than the other way around.

Originally Posted by Iku

I prefer the MSD over the other meta gems. While it is unreliable and unpredictable, it's procs seem to come at the perfect moments.
I can't even imagine how often I thought "Wow, that proc timing was awesome". It may be subjective, but I feel the MSD has helped me quite much.

And how many times have you thought "if only my meta/trinket had proc'd"?

Originally Posted by Kasi

In the old trinket thread I remember that Gurgthock spoke very highly of the Scarab of the Infinite Cycle. While that was a long time ago, I don't think that the reason for it has changed. Very solid healing stats plus very nice burst healing at times. Now longevity trinkets are nice, but if you have the mana you don't need more. Spell haste can sometimes be very handy when you just need to pump out as much heals as you can.

Lets try this another way. Lets take two shaman, both resto. One has 0% crit chance, the other has 25%. Both output 2000 hps. (and this is ignoring the armour buff too)
Shaman A heals for 5k each cast. (I was getting 5.2k in T5 back when I was healing)
Shaman B heals for 4k base, 6k crit.

If you need more than 1600 solid hps, Shaman B isn't going to cut it. This is why I do not use Scarab/MSD.

As I said earlier, I'm reviewing the EP values on my spreadsheets, following the changes I've made on the elemental side, which should allow me to de-value haste in response to the increased mana use, because currently it is not taking that into account.

Shinwei · 12/17/07, 1:39 AM

I like the way this discussion is going about spell haste and healing bursts. I feel that it's worth talking more about.

First off, I think we can all agree that during many encounters in the game there are times where a great deal of raid healing is needed, and you will be spamming chain heal at various levels of desperation. There are other times during some encounters where not a lot of raid healing is needed and you have a chance to pause and consider who to heal.

We are also agreed that during those times that we pause, spell haste and proccing MSD and trinkets is absolutely useless to us - therefore more mana regen is better. However, it must also be said that if you have enough mana regeneration and are confident that you are not going to run out of mana during an encounter, the usefulness of being able to regenerate more mana is not very high. If you have enough mana and mana regen to survive the next burst healing phase and subsequent phases to last the encounter, more mana regen is useless.

Now, for periods in which burst raid healing is needed (Gurtogg Bloodboil, Reliquary of Souls phase 3, and Illidan Phase 2 come to mind), I would think that the [Mystical Skyfire Diamond] would be very useful. During these phases you are spamming chain heal over and over and over again. I would think that you are almost guaranteed at least one proc of that meta gem during this intense spam, and since the damage on the raid is equally if not more intense, that proc of a half-cast can and WILL help.

I would apply the same logic to spell haste. As stated by Skyhoof's post earlier, the value of spell haste comes when you are spamming heals nonstop. Boosting your HPS through spell haste can and will aid you in saving your raid during these times.

To reiterate:

Mana regen does something for you during any time in which you have less than 100% mana. However, if you have a good enough feel of an encounter to be confident that you will not go OOM during or until the fight ends (it's OK to be OOM when the boss hits the ground, guys, just not before) further mana regen has very limited use.

Burst spell haste like the MSD and the [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle] have a very high chance of proccing when you are spamming non-stop, and their procs will most likely NOT go to waste if the raid is taking heavy damage. Even though they do nothing during times of light raid damage, they will probably come through for you when you really need it.

Dependable spell haste follows the same logic as burst spell haste. It is nearly useless when there's not much raid healing to be done, but it will greatly facilitate you in keeping your raid alive when they need it.

In conclusion:

Assemble a set of healing gear, focusing heavily on Mp5. THEN assemble a set of healing gear with spell haste. Put on the spell haste stuff when you feel comfortable with your ability to not run out of mana during an encounter.

Pokkai · 12/17/07, 1:39 AM

for me the insightful means the exact opposite- I need to focus more on +int and mp5 which I really don't want. Like I said before I would socket everything with 22 healing if I could, and 2 blue+2 yellow requirement takes away from that. MSD lets me only use 1 yellow which I only use because +20 healing and +5 int = 22 healing. If it procs 3 times in a fight and you end with 2000 mana then the insightful is all but wasted. MSD is almost never wasted I think, because any spell cast faster is a benefit.

bhchwsy · 12/17/07, 12:04 PM

[Eye of Gruul]
Procs off each jump of chain heal, boosting the proc chance to 6%. If it procs twice per minute, it equals 18 mp5.

If it procs twice per minute, it equals 18 mp5? or it should be 900/60*5=75 mp5? or getting worse. it procs once per minute, it will be 37.5 mp5.

Malan · 12/17/07, 12:11 PM

Stam = 0.30
Int = 0.75
Spirit = 0.1
Healing = 1.1
Crit = 0.5
Mp5 = 3.75
Haste = 0.75
Armor = 0.01

I was looking for some stat weights to use in Pawn for assembling my healing off spec gear since I haven't been a full time healer in a long time. These values seem.... odd though. Mp5 is worth three times as much as +healing? Is that a typo?

♦ Praetorian · 12/17/07, 12:14 PM

Why would that be a typo? People typically have over ten times as much healing as mp5, and for a reason (item budgets, etc.). Before 2.3, I probably valued mp5 as equivalent to 5 or so healing, but it's become a bit less important since the water shield and mana spring buffs.

Malan · 12/17/07, 1:26 PM

It seemed excessive.

If you consider it accurate though, then the trinket section of the OP is a bit off. It lists the Rejuv gem as a "Tier 1" trinket, lumping it in with some green quest rewards and the LCPB. But if you calculate the stat weights its as good, if not better than, the Fathom Lord Brooch.

One other question - since I'm primarily enhancement for the raids my picks at healing gear usually include whatever the left overs are that everyone else passes on, which of late looks to be a lot of haste gear. I picked up some leather healing gloves with haste on them from akama. I've heard many healers scoff at haste but I'm not really seeing what the negative impact of it is, since from a melee perspective haste is fantastic. (For a melee, 1% haste will raise your autoattack DPS by 1%)