Hmm. Tell you what. Give me a few days, and I'll incorporate a lot of Bink's stuff into my spreadsheet. Let's see if I can come up with a sheet that Bink, Skyhoof and I are all happy with. That way, Bink can stop maintaining a resto version. If it works well, I'll expand the scope of the sheet (with another version) to include elemental. Sound fair?
I would definitely like to see another version
Originally Posted by Grays
I'm also going to use a parsing algorithm to load heuristics data from successful boss kills that are posted on WWS. I'll build a Ruby on Rails application to allow anyone to upload said heuristics data so that we can get a good cross-section on what spells get cast by shamans during certain fights. That should help us come up with a more accurate weighting system. PLEASE NOTE that this will take (at minimum!) 3-5 weeks AFTER I get the regular spreadsheet automated. Web applications are always tricky, and I'm not 100% proficient in basic Rails applications yet.
I'm not sure this is worth the time and effort. With Shamstats, I set my spell rotation to 90% chainheal, 5% LHW and 5% Healing Wave. Any parse of shaman healing in WWS is going to show that we mainly cast Chain Heal. Instead of trying to come up with your own rating system, I would suggest using the values that Binkenstein has calculated in Shamstats or the ones I give in this post. Plus, it would be important for users to be able to enter their own values.
Originally Posted by Grays
There are a couple of non-spreadsheet enhancements I am considering (ALL OF WHICH will only function with OpenOffice, and would require Ruby to be installed):
- I could develop a simple addon to pull all currently-owned gear out of your inventory and bank and adjust the spreadsheet based on what you do or don't have.
- I could develop a script that will automatically set up ItemRack sets and AtlasLoot wishlist entries based on decisions you make in the spreadsheet.
It would be great to have a way to quickly use the gear you are wearing, or one of your ItemRack sets. Do many people use AtlasLoot wishlist entries? I don't use it and I don't know any players that do.
Originally Posted by Grays
- I could develop a script that will calculate your DPS (elemental) or HPS (resto) for a given number of minutes and make recommendations. (This might require heuristics data to be more useful.)
Basically, here is what we want to know. What gear will give a shaman maximum HPS without going OOM for a fight of x duration with y buffs, talents and gear, etc. We basically would like you to further develop your concept of 10MM. Shamstats is pretty close to being able to do this (I think). Shamstats already allows you to enter talents and buffs, including whether you have a shadow priest. HPS alone would be a rather meaningless stat for gear comparison.
Wish list is a new addition to AtlasLoot. I'm just pulling something off the top of my head, that's all. I don't know how popular it will be, but basically, the idea I'm thinking is this (based on how I marked up my own comparison sheet):
1. Items that the user has will be formatted as "outline"
2. Items the user wants he should mark in bold.
Based on the sets in some control tab (I'm working on it), ItemRack sets would be generated using a Ruby script. Based on the items bolded, Wishlist entries would be created. These are just preliminary thoughts.
Anyway, I'm hashing out a new spreadsheet. I have an exam Thursday and a comp sci project due Friday, as well as errands I have to run amidst classes this week, so I can't give a good estimate of how long this will take. Hopefully I'll have something concrete by this weekend.
But if you have 'enough' MP5, they why not boost hps instead. I could happily lose 100MP5 whilst casting when fully raid buffed (if in a SP group) and replace that with Haste. As it happens, the pieces i have give me 110 hr, at the loss of about 20 MP5 (at the very most) about 200 hit points and approximately the same plus heal...which hardly breaks the bank, but does increase my hps by around 110, and that's on a 100%/50%/10% split for chain heal.
Or i could choose to downrank by 1, stay at the same hps as the unhasted higher rank, and keep it going for longer, even with a 100mp5 loss.
Listen; You have to start backing your claims with some math. For all I know, all you do is pull these numbers out of a hat. What's your usual overhealing percentage? What's your hp buffed at(if those 200 stam are useless), what's your HPS needs? What is your regen and your mana usage? Etc.
Those 110 haste is currently:
New Casting Time = Base Casting Time / (1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570))
2.5/(1+(110/1570)) = 2.34
In a 10 minute window, you will have cast 256 CHs, compare to 240 with no haste.
Rank 5 CH: 826 to 942 =884 on average. Coefficient is 2.5/3.5. Paperdoll has 2k +heal.
Mp5 is the same in those two cases, but you cast 16 more rank 5 CHs, resulting in 540*0.90*0.95*16 = 7387.20 extra mana spent. This is 7387.20/(10*60/5) = 61.56 mp5. And this for less healed.
Last edited by Raut : 02/19/08 at 6:14 PM.
Reason: Copy/paste more, type less
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
Your'e completely misunderstanding my point. Of course it's not possible to make a perfect system, hence it's not possible to agree on what gear would be the best for every fight. However if you do the math yourself, you can at least average the factors out in a way that will give you maximum chance to succeed on a fight. You can go more accurate or you can do it more roughly. However completely ignoring some qualities of stats that *will* be useful in at least some fights/setups/etc and then making a point value is just silly. You cannot compare mana efficiency to HPS unless you know what kind of fight you're coming up against and what raid/party you'll have. Even if you do know, it's still hard to compare, but not comparing at all when picking your gear is silly.
Most point systems I've seen so far are either based on pure itemization value (which doesn't take all these factors into account as blizzard had never been amazing theorycrafters), based on pure HPS or based on pure efficiency increase.
The reason you cannot compare items properly without a point system is that eventually you will always be choosing stat tradeoffs. Be it 10 healing vs 3 mp5, 20 haste vs 30 int, or whatever. Yes that point system would be incredibly complicated and never possible to do accurately, but that only means you will never be able to completely agree which items are better. And I'm not talking about a fixed point system, I'm talking about a varaible point system, one that gives each item a different value for every fight/setup.
You must be asking - what can I do with this information in practice?
Well the best you can do that I can think of to actually compare items, is to make a spreadsheet that would include:
1. User configureable setups - starting from current gear and raid/party buffs, and over to how much he evaluates HPS vs efficiency for the fight he's checking which gear is best for.
2. Calculate max burst HPS - again allowing configureable numbers that will affect how important you find different "kinds" of burst - mostly how much you benefit from cooldown-based bursts VS static . For example, assuming you're still learning those fights, for azgalor cooldowns would be better as you can pop them when you resist the silence, but kael phase 2/3 you will need to do lots of healing over a longer time before you go back into easy(er)-mode healing of phase 4/5.
3. Calculate how much healing you can do if you use all your mana. This will of course greatly depend on the spells you use for the fight, but we're assuming you have already decided what is the best way to actually heal and only trying to compare gear, so the spell ratio would be user-entered. Possibly even add an "average HPS requirement" (which wouldn't be the minimum to keep the raid alive, but the maximum amount of healing you can do based on damage people take) to calculate the effectiveness of downraking more when having higher HPS.
4. Take all those user-entered factors into account and calculate the "point system".
Making this kind of spreadsheet is actually very practical. What's hard is to actually put the "user-configureable" stuff in it. However such a thing would at least allow you to see what things have a big effect on the "point system" and what things don't. You can also estimate the margin of error in your input and see how much error that adds to the "point system". When making an imperfect/roudned system it's good to know how much "off" it could be. You could even let the spreadsheet do the "error" calcuation itself.
So yes, comparing items perfectly is difficult to impossible, but making a point system that will tell you how good items are in a way (at least) better than anything done so far is very possible and practical, and will give much better information about the value of stats than just trying to create a "fixed" point system or calculate based on only 1 aspect of healing. The "best" spreadsheets seem to stick with pure "how much healing I can do until I go oom" which just isn't enough especially when they ignore the added HPS of downranking so even what they calculate actually fails.
The "best" spreadsheets seem to stick with pure "how much healing I can do until I go oom" which just isn't enough especially when they ignore the added HPS of downranking so even what they calculate actually fails.
You were missing a few of the changes that I'd made in the last few months then. Regen was down-valued based on regen vs use, and more recently changed to a 10 minute basis.
Downranking (optional anyway) was something I was looking at adding in at some point.
galzohar, I don't have the time tonight that I did last night to pick apart your post and tell you why you're wrong. Suffice it to say that you can't keep making these warrantless, blanket statements and submit your "ideal criteria" for your own personal dream spreadsheet without making any kind of contribution to the math itself. You speak in the abstract where the concrete is necessary.
Listen; You have to start backing your claims with some math. For all I know, all you do is pull these numbers out of a hat. What's your usual overhealing percentage? What's your hp buffed at(if those 200 stam are useless), what's your HPS needs? What is your regen and your mana usage? Etc.
Those 110 haste is currently:
New Casting Time = Base Casting Time / (1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570))
2.5/(1+(110/1570)) = 2.34
In a 10 minute window, you will have cast 256 CHs, compare to 240 with no haste.
Rank 5 CH: 826 to 942 =884 on average. Coefficient is 2.5/3.5. Paperdoll has 2k +heal.
Mp5 is the same in those two cases, but you cast 16 more rank 5 CHs, resulting in 540*0.90*0.95*16 = 7387.20 extra mana spent. This is 7387.20/(10*60/5) = 61.56 mp5. And this for less healed.
Okay, lets look at it in the real world shall we.
Using your calculations.
Non hasted items being replace
Girdle of Fallen Stars
Shroud of the Final Stand
Crystal Spire of Karabor
Lord Sanguinars Claim
Band of Eternity
To be replace by
Naturalists Preserving Cinch
Shroud of the Highborne
Dark Blessing
Brooch of Natures Mercy
Blessed Band of Karabor.
This gives a difference when wearing the hasted set:
-19 STA
+20 INT
-36 MP5
-73 Healing
+162 Haste Rating
So, using your calculations, in 10 minutes
Hasted: 264 heals @ 4856.4
Non hasted: 240 heals @ 4965.9
Totals:
Hasted: 1,282,090
Non Hasted: 1,191,816
Giving an increase of 150 HPS when using the hasted set.
Albeit at the cost of more mana used with less MP5 (36MP5 = 4320 mana difference over 10 minutes.)
So, using your calculations, in 10 minutes
Hasted: 264 heals @ 4856.4
Non hasted: 240 heals @ 4965.9
Totals:
Hasted: 1,282,090
Non Hasted: 1,191,816
Giving an increase of 150 HPS when using the hasted set.
Albeit at the cost of more mana used with less MP5 (36MP5 = 4320 mana difference over 10 minutes.)
Fairly extreme example though.
Except it's missing a vital part. 24 more CHs means an added mana usage of
>>> 540*0.90*0.95*24
11080.8 - more mana spent in these ten minutes.
>>> (540*0.90*0.95*24)/(10*60/5)
92.34 - resulting added mp5 need to maintain spam.
I'm fully aware that a combination of haste and heal will increase your potential HPS. It's pretty much a no-brainer. I'm saying that it costs and I think I have shown the numbers supporting this theory. I'm not always in a spriest group, and your example means speanding 92.34 more mp5 with 36 less mp5 gained.
PS: If you have HPS demands which are high, you would probably be very interested in the proc from CSoK. On a cluster-fsck fight like the last stage of Anger, it can up the landed heal for ~600 hp.
Last edited by Raut : 02/20/08 at 10:55 AM.
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
Now I see what you meant. Yep, that would boost the value of Totemic Focus even more -- although still making it a weak talent. However, I think Scenario 2 is a pretty good "best case" scenario as it stands with the totem refresh rate at 1.5 minutes, instead of the full 2 minutes.
After a brief run though of my own WWS i'd say 1.5 is fair if not slightly generous on most fights. You could even say other than searing most of us cast our first set of totems at t (-30s) to t (-15s) before a fight begins and grab a quick drink further reducing its value.
In the raiding sections on what works for bosses I have found these to help:
On Leotheras: Searing totems must be lifted before demon phase transition. Aggro gain by the demon tank is slowed with searing down lowering raid damage.
On Morogrim: Grace of air dropped for the MT really helps for the extra dodge. Moro hits like a truck. Also amplify magic on the tanks. 92-95% of Moro's damage is physical and the amp helps save healers mana over the long run.
Except it's missing a vital part. 24 more CHs means an added mana usage of
>>> 540*0.90*0.95*24
11080.8 - more mana spent in these ten minutes.
>>> (540*0.90*0.95*24)/(10*60/5)
92.34 - resulting added mp5 need to maintain spam.
I'm fully aware that a combination of haste and heal will increase your potential HPS. It's pretty much a no-brainer. I'm saying that it costs and I think I have shown the numbers supporting this theory. I'm not always in a spriest group, and your example means speanding 92.34 more mp5 with 36 less mp5 gained.
PS: If you have HPS demands which are high, you would probably be very interested in the proc from CSoK. On a cluster-fsck fight like the last stage of Anger, it can up the landed heal for ~600 hp.
It does cost, but then, i wouldn't use it if i couldn't afford the mana cost - i.e. when not in a SP group; that's when putting on more +heal and mp5 is a necessity.
Btw, you'd need 880 MP5 (whilst casting) to sustain a 10minute fight of spamming R5 chain heal. (with totem of living water and approx 13500 mana) using approx 125715 mana in total.
CSoK i'd take over Dark Blessing anyway, even in a hasted set. It's far too good imo to not use.
This is a great thread and I have used it to improve my gameplay. However, just wanted to point out that the Earthbind totem does not effect the Naga Elites in Phase 2 of the Vashj fight as indicated. Tried it last night and it did nothing. Thanks!
Earthbind: Slows Coilfang Striders and Naga Elites
About the necessity of being concrete, care to explain that number a bit more?
I get 36*10*60/5 = 4320 as well.
oh crap >_>
Yeah. Open mouth, insert foot. I apologize profusely. Working with the spreadsheet the other day got me thinking in terms of minutes as decimal values rather than 60 seconds.
Does anyone have any experience with the [Mystical Skyfire Diamond] and the Sunwell encounters on the PTR? As we know there have been some changes made to the MSD on the PTR, and I would like to know if anyone has raided Sunwell there and could share their experience with the meta.
As it stands currently I use the MSD in my T6 helm, and I recently picked up a 2nd Tier 6 Helm token and I'm debating whether or not I should buy another Resto helm to put in an IED or just get an Elemental helm for fun. In my experiences through Black Temple I have come to the conclusion that the MSD is by far the better gem for all encounters but the Illidari Council. This is because we have everything on farm status now and bosses drop a lot faster than I can run OOM with my mana regen from elsewhere.
I suspect that when learning new bosses more mana regen is going to be very important, but I would still like to know how the MSD performs in Sunwell. Are there any periods of extreme burst raid or tank damage? Are any of the bosses "skinny" enough for Chain Heal to bounce from tank to melee (in which case it may be a good idea to assign a Resto Shaman to heal the tank)? Information like this would be greatly appreciated.
Umm, am I missing something in the case of Earth Shield? The tooltip in-game says it gives a 30% resistance to spell interruption, but all the posts in this thread, including the first page of information say that it is a 70% resistance.
Is the in-game tooltip wrong or am I reading it wrong?
I just wanted to say thanks to the OP and anyone else that has posted invaluable information. I lived by this guide when I started raiding on my Shaman, and it is still what I use as guidelines for our new recruits. Kudos to anyone who has the time and ability to crunch the numbers and give this information to the community.
Umm, am I missing something in the case of Earth Shield? The tooltip in-game says it gives a 30% resistance to spell interruption, but all the posts in this thread, including the first page of information say that it is a 70% resistance.
Is the in-game tooltip wrong or am I reading it wrong?
I found the part you meant:
7. Do Healing Stream and Mana Stream stack? What about…
Healing: Yes
Mana: No
Mana Spring stacks with the Paladin’s Blessing of Wisdom
Tranquil Air stacks with the Paladin’s Blessing of Salvation (total of 44% threat reduction) Earth Shield's spell interruption protection of 70% stacks with the Paladin's Aura of Concentration (35%) to provide 100% spell pushback protection (105% technically). This is one of the few mechanics in the game that is additive rather than multiplicative.
This is indeed wrong. It should be Healing Focus and not Earth Shield.
Does anyone have any experience with the [Mystical Skyfire Diamond] and the Sunwell encounters on the PTR? As we know there have been some changes made to the MSD on the PTR, and I would like to know if anyone has raided Sunwell there and could share their experience with the meta.
As it stands currently I use the MSD in my T6 helm, and I recently picked up a 2nd Tier 6 Helm token and I'm debating whether or not I should buy another Resto helm to put in an IED or just get an Elemental helm for fun. In my experiences through Black Temple I have come to the conclusion that the MSD is by far the better gem for all encounters but the Illidari Council. This is because we have everything on farm status now and bosses drop a lot faster than I can run OOM with my mana regen from elsewhere.
I suspect that when learning new bosses more mana regen is going to be very important, but I would still like to know how the MSD performs in Sunwell. Are there any periods of extreme burst raid or tank damage? Are any of the bosses "skinny" enough for Chain Heal to bounce from tank to melee (in which case it may be a good idea to assign a Resto Shaman to heal the tank)? Information like this would be greatly appreciated.
I'm interested in this as well, was going to socket my meta with an IED, but decided on a MSD for the exact reasons above. Even with the change (320 haste for 6 seconds, 15% proc chance right?) it seems much more valuable for shamans in theory than 12 int and between 5-10 mana/5 depending on whats being cast.
galzohar, I don't have the time tonight that I did last night to pick apart your post and tell you why you're wrong. Suffice it to say that you can't keep making these warrantless, blanket statements and submit your "ideal criteria" for your own personal dream spreadsheet without making any kind of contribution to the math itself. You speak in the abstract where the concrete is necessary.
Chill out, Grays. Galzohar was brain storming some ideas on what resto shaman would find helpful in a spreadsheet. We like those sort of posts in this thread. We appreciate having someone like you who can also craft spreadsheets to turn our ideas into reality. We know the actual formulas are not easy to create.
Originally Posted by Yekkom
In the raiding sections on what works for bosses I have found these to help:
On Leotheras: Searing totems must be lifted before demon phase transition. Aggro gain by the demon tank is slowed with searing down lowering raid damage.
On Morogrim: Grace of air dropped for the MT really helps for the extra dodge. Moro hits like a truck. Also amplify magic on the tanks. 92-95% of Moro's damage is physical and the amp helps save healers mana over the long run.
I’ll update the Morogrim info. However, I have never seen our demon tank have a problem getting aggro if the searing totem was down. Can you explain further what problems you have observed if the Searing Totem is left down?
Originally Posted by Varshock
This is a great thread and I have used it to improve my gameplay. However, just wanted to point out that the Earthbind totem does not effect the Naga Elites in Phase 2 of the Vashj fight as indicated. Tried it last night and it did nothing. Thanks!
Fixed. Thanks for the post.
Originally Posted by Hodor
I found the part you meant:
This is indeed wrong. It should be Healing Focus and not Earth Shield.
Also fixed. Thanks as well.
Originally Posted by Pwny
I'm interested in this as well, was going to socket my meta with an IED, but decided on a MSD for the exact reasons above. Even with the change (320 haste for 6 seconds, 15% proc chance right?) it seems much more valuable for shamans in theory than 12 int and between 5-10 mana/5 depending on whats being cast.
Also, MSD still has a 45 second cooldown.
Making any meaningful comparison between the two meta gems is difficult without some hard numbers on how often IED procs. I had been observing 15-20 mp5 but a look at some recent WWS shows it’s providing 10-15 mp5. Anyone have better data?
Najentus (4:29): 600 mana = 11.1 mp5
Bloodboil (7:37): 1500 mana = 16.7 mp5
Magtheridon (7:19) 1200 mana = 13.8 mp5
Mother Sharaz attempt (3:27) 600 mana = 14.3 mp5
Mother Sharaz attempt (2:49) 600 mana = 17.6 mp5
I’ll update the Morogrim info. However, I have never seen our demon tank have a problem getting aggro if the searing totem was down. Can you explain further what problems you have observed if the Searing Totem is left down?
I found this a little problematic last night on Leo, but not in terms of our demon tank having a hard time picking him up. If our demon tank doesn't have aggro as soon as he shifts AND people are standing around the searing totem, then it is likely that they will all get him once by him. Maybe twice if your warlock is slow on aggro pickup. We only ever had one flame blast on a group because of this however. I found that the overall benefit of keeping Searing Totem down (increased DPS in demon phase and making sure the tank can easily pick him back up upon shift) more than compenstated for the small damage that people took from the one blast he hit them with.
I was healing arcane missile targets on Solarian, so I had an unusually high number of lesser healing waves. I expected poorer performance from IED on that fight as a result, but surprisingly it was the VR fight that it performed poorly on. I'm chalking that up as an outlier.
I found this a little problematic last night on Leo, but not in terms of our demon tank having a hard time picking him up. If our demon tank doesn't have aggro as soon as he shifts AND people are standing around the searing totem, then it is likely that they will all get hit once by him. Maybe twice if your warlock is slow on aggro pickup. We only ever had one flame blast on a group because of this however. I found that the overall benefit of keeping Searing Totem down (increased DPS in demon phase and making sure the tank can easily pick him back up upon shift) more than compenstated for the small damage that people took from the one blast he hit them with.
Sounds like Searing Totems should be recalled to be on the safe side. However, can't the warlock DoT up Leo in his Human phase and be assured of getting aggro in the Demon phase? I have memories of our raid leader calling out for people to stop DoTs prior to the Demon Phase. Warlock DoTs > Searing?
02/19/08, 1:51 PM
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