How to Heal like a Pro - Page 3

Kyuki · 12/18/07, 10:42 AM

Skyhoof - have you ever tried MSD?

I feel there is to big generalisation around healing here. It can't be min maxed like DPS. "More mana regen is never wasted" - everytime you have more than 0 mana when the fight is over, the mana you had left was wasted mana regen. It's always good to be on a safe side, but if you Dont have mana problems, mana regen is a wasted stat. It's never bad to add up on it, but taking it over something that Can save life is in my oppinion very much inferior even if it's abit random.

I can count several times the MSD has saved the entire melee squad on fights like Azgalor for example, and also prevented wipes on several occasions.

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

And how many times have you thought "if only my meta/trinket had proc'd"?

Never? It's a awesome bonus as someone else said above, but healing in general can never be relying on procs? This would be stupid.

I'm glad it's added to the OP. The OP description however leaves traces of a none objective view on the gem imho

Nite_Moogle · 12/18/07, 11:25 AM

Tidal Mastery: While shaman healing is not based on getting crits, it never hurts. It also provides a nice benefit while you are soloing.

While the itemization isn't quite as absurd for this as it used to be, Tidal Mastery is a damn good place to spend 5 points if you're already spending 3/3 in Ancestral Healing, which you should be. I wouldn't spec 8/0/53 without it. The 25% AC boost that this proc provides will typically provide a good deal more AC than an Ironshield potion. In my current Kara-level gear, an AH proc is worth 3750 AC while an Ironshield is only 2500, and any raid tank can tell you how Ironshields save their ass. It doesn't seem like a lot, but 5% more crit across 3 shamans in the raid trying to get a 15% proc goes a very long way indeed.

Shinwei · 12/18/07, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

Not really, since you also used 5 super mana potions.

During a 19 minute fight I would presumably have at least 9 Super Mana Potion cooldowns available to me. Had I truly needed mana, I would have drank 4 more. I didn't, and I didn't need to use two of my Mana Tide cooldowns either.

The point I'm trying to make is that Totemic Focus is one of the weakest talents in the Resto tree, and if you are thinking about speccing 8/0/53, it's one of the first talents you should throw away.

Ranalis · 12/18/07, 1:55 PM

As a resto shaman who is about to enter T6 content in earnest (we're on our 3rd week working on Kael) I wonder if I could get some guidance from T6 shaman. Haste is a really attractive stat based on what I'm usually doing in raids, and I've already picked up a couple of ZA haste pieces (chest and mace from Zul'jin, neck from Akil'zon) that seem to be significant upgrades in T5 content. However, I'm still stuck prioritizing haste versus stats for the next level of content we'll be facing.

I'm on raid healing and "watch the MT" duty about 90% of the time in raids, meaning that, like most shaman, about 3/4 of my heals are chain heal, with some healing wave rank 8 thrown in for various top offs as needed. I try to avoid using LHW if possible because I find it inefficient, so I only use it in emergency situations. My lack of enthusiasm for LHW leads to my question:

What are the MINIMUM stats needed for T6 healing? In other words - how much spell haste can I stack without sacrificing MP/5 and +heal to an unacceptable point?

Obviously there are going to be situational differences for fights of various lengths, demands, etc. For the sake of discussion, let's assume everyone knows those things, and is going to get two sets of gear - +haste and stats sets. I'm interested to know how to prioritize acquisition of gear in those two sets. Clearly opinions can differ, but I wonder what T6 shaman who like haste consider as the "floor" for their standard healing stats.

Shinwei · 12/18/07, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ranalis

As a resto shaman who is about to enter T6 content in earnest (we're on our 3rd week working on Kael) I wonder if I could get some guidance from T6 shaman. Haste is a really attractive stat based on what I'm usually doing in raids, and I've already picked up a couple of ZA haste pieces (chest and mace from Zul'jin, neck from Akil'zon) that seem to be significant upgrades in T5 content. However, I'm still stuck prioritizing haste versus stats for the next level of content we'll be facing.

I'm on raid healing and "watch the MT" duty about 90% of the time in raids, meaning that, like most shaman, about 3/4 of my heals are chain heal, with some healing wave rank 8 thrown in for various top offs as needed. I try to avoid using LHW if possible because I find it inefficient, so I only use it in emergency situations. My lack of enthusiasm for LHW leads to my question:

What are the MINIMUM stats needed for T6 healing? In other words - how much spell haste can I stack without sacrificing MP/5 and +heal to an unacceptable point?

Obviously there are going to be situational differences for fights of various lengths, demands, etc. For the sake of discussion, let's assume everyone knows those things, and is going to get two sets of gear - +haste and stats sets. I'm interested to know how to prioritize acquisition of gear in those two sets. Clearly opinions can differ, but I wonder what T6 shaman who like haste consider as the "floor" for their standard healing stats.

I started Mount Hyjal and Black Temple before Zul'Aman came out, so I had zero spell haste, around 1800 +healing, and 174 unbuffed Mp5. During the encounters of Hyjal and BT you will find that certain boss fights require a lot of mana regen, and certain boss fights require almost none at all.

Another thing to note is that Kael'thas himself is a much longer and more difficult fight than all of the early BT/Hyjal encounters combined. If you have the gear to defeat Kael'thas, you are more than geared enough to take on Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, High Warlord Naj'entus, Supremus, and Shade of Akama (maybe even more).

Rage Winterchill is a quick and easy fight in which you should not have any mana problems whatsoever. Feel free to wear your spell haste set on him.

Anetheron requires a little bit more mana regen, but not much. Be prepared to spend a lot of periods not healing due to being swarmed or slept.

High Warlord Naj'entus is a fight in which the entire raid is taking heavy damage throughout the entire fight. When you're learning it, stack MP5 because it's not THAT short. As your guild starts putting this fight on farm, feel free to put on some spell haste.

Yekkom · 12/18/07, 2:32 PM

In regards to the 3pc T2 and 4pc T6 bonus's compared to just the 4pc T6 bonus.

Made a few changes to the spreadsheet Daidalos posted in Murderbot's healing thread.On the Chainheal page Stat1 is 4pcT6 plus 3pcT2 bonus and Stat2 is just the 4pcT6 bonus, Using the plus to heals given us by Thud00(Thudx) of 2100 and 2342 respectively I came up with this:

Here is the goggle docs link:

4pcT63pcT2 compared to 4pcT6

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...hWHi77CA&hl=en

Cast Time Mana Cost Avg.Heal 1 target Avg Heal 2 Targets Avg Heal 3 targets Heal/mana 1 target Heal/mana 2 targets Heal/mana 3 targets Heal/sec 1 target Heal/sec 2 targets Heal/sec 3 targets
Base
Rank 1 2.50 260 353 530 617.75 1.36 2.04 2.38 0.54 0.81 0.95
Rank 2 2.50 315 435 653 761.25 1.38 2.07 2.42 0.55 0.83 0.97
Rank 3 2.50 405 590 885 1032.5 1.46 2.19 2.55 0.58 0.87 1.02
Rank 4 2.50 435 648 972 1134 1.49 2.23 2.61 0.60 0.89 1.04
Rank 5 2.50 540 884 1326 1547 1.64 2.46 2.86 0.65 0.98 1.15

Stats1 4pcT6,3pcT2
Stats1 build
Rank 1 2.50 222.523 1968.30 3247.69 4079.29 8.85 14.59 18.33 787.32 1299.08 1631.72
Rank 2 2.50 269.595 2426.66 4003.99 5029.26 9.00 14.85 18.65 970.66 1601.60 2011.70
Rank 3 2.50 346.622 2859.15 4717.60 5925.59 8.25 13.61 17.10 1143.66 1887.04 2370.24
Rank 4 2.50 372.297 3063.26 5054.38 6049.94 8.23 13.58 16.25 1225.30 2021.75 2419.98
Rank 5 2.50 462.162 3390.36 5594.09 7026.52 7.34 12.10 15.20 1356.14 2237.64 2810.61

Stats2 4pcT6
Stats2 build
Rank 1 2.50 222.523 2241.26 3361.89 3922.21 10.07 15.11 17.63 896.51 1344.76 1568.88
Rank 2 2.50 269.595 2629.74 3944.61 4602.04 9.75 14.63 17.07 1051.90 1577.84 1840.82
Rank 3 2.50 346.622 3085.04 4627.56 5398.82 8.90 13.35 15.58 1234.02 1851.02 2159.53
Rank 4 2.50 372.297 3302.84 4954.26 5779.97 8.87 13.31 15.53 1321.14 1981.70 2311.99
Rank 5 2.50 462.162 3629.94 5444.91 6352.39 7.85 11.78 13.74 1451.98 2177.96 2540.96

This next Google Doc spreadsheet has only a 3pc T2 compared to no T2:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?h...RD2ejLcYnLrQRA

You lose some first target heals but bounces seem to make up for that nicely.

Malan · 12/18/07, 2:43 PM

If you put some [ code ] tags around that and add some white space it might be more readable.

Skyhoof · 12/18/07, 5:03 PM

Skyhoof - have you ever tried MSD?

No, but I have tried the Scarab of the Infinite Cycle. It’s the same concept. About once per minute, you can cast spells faster. One spell with MSD, as many as you can get off in 6 seconds with the Scarab. I understand why you and others like it. It’s clear that myself and other healers prefer consistency over lucky procs. Believe me, if the Scarab was an on-use trinket that you could activate on a two-minute cooldown, we would all be using it. Time to move this discussion along.

I'm glad it's added to the OP. The OP description however leaves traces of a none objective view on the gem imho

Working as intended.

Originally Posted by Vema
While the tooltip of the spell still says "2% Chance" I believe that this meta was changed in 2.3 to be 5%. Both Thott and Wowhead list the same, both being 5%. If it was changed this meta-gem seems significantly more valuable.

Yes, I’ve heard the same thing. However, I cannot find anything in the patch notes or a blue post. We do know that they increased the proc rate of the Mystical Skyfire Diamond. Does anyone know where Thott and Wowhead get their data for proc rates?

I looked at some WWS for a few recent fights. In one, the gem procced 5 times. I cast 100 heals, dropped 11 totems, cast Bloodlust once, activated a trinket twice and cast water shield and Earth Shield a few times. The fight was about 6 minutes long so I got back roughly 20.8 mp5 and it proced about 4.3% of the time.

In another fight, I got 3 procs. I cast 98 heals, dropped 5 totems, cast Bloodlust once and water shield a few times. That fight lasted about 4.5 minutes. So I got back 16.6 mp5 and it proced about 4.7% of the time.

That seems to be consistent with the 5% proc rate listed on Thott and Wowhead.

Ok, now let’s look at the entire raid – a much longer span of time. It procced 46 times. I cast 1,403 heals. I also got Prayer of Mending 12 times and Lifebloom 17 times but I don’t know if that counts. I dropped 145 totems. I cast Bloodlust 9 times. I cast Totemic Call 11 times. NS 3 times (if that counts). And water shield at least 17 times (probably more like 25) and Earth Shield an unknown number of times. That’s a minimum of 46/1585. So that’s 2.9% proc. If I count the PoM and Lifebloom and the procs themselves (because it can proc off itself), it procced 2.7% of the time.

Generally, the more data you have, the more accurate the result. I would tend to think data from an entire night of raiding (4 hours) would be closer to the actual figure than a single fight that lasts 6 minutes. That would put the proc rate around 3% (although there’s enough margin for error that it could really still be 2%).

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
While the itemization isn't quite as absurd for this as it used to be, Tidal Mastery is a damn good place to spend 5 points if you're already spending 3/3 in Ancestral Healing, which you should be. I wouldn't spec 8/0/53 without it. The 25% AC boost that this proc provides will typically provide a good deal more AC than an Ironshield potion. In my current Kara-level gear, an AH proc is worth 3750 AC while an Ironshield is only 2500, and any raid tank can tell you how Ironshields save their ass. It doesn't seem like a lot, but 5% more crit across 3 shamans in the raid trying to get a 15% proc goes a very long way indeed.

Excellent point and well said. Basically took your post and added it to the talent description of Tidal Mastery.

Nature’s Guardian: Revised Description

Tidal Mastery: Revised Description

Shield Enchants: Added +18 Stamina. Thud00 makes an excellent point that shaman get their mana from mp5, not having a large initial mana pool. I still think +12 Intellect is a good enchant but so is +18 Stamina. I actually have +12 Intellect on my main shield and +18 Stamina on a secondary shield that I use for fights where I need more health.

Added Healbot to mods and plan to give it a try myself in the next week or so. Sounds interesting.

Added the trick of using Totem of the Maelstrom and Rank 1 Healing Wave to proc Ancestral Fortitude and regen outside of the 5-second rule.

I did not have a chance to digest the T2 numbers posted but I can't wait to delve into them -- after at least 3 cups of coffee.

EDIT: I get the following message when I click on the link for the spreadsheet: We're sorry, [myemail] does not have permission to access this spreadsheet.

Yekkom · 12/18/07, 5:56 PM

Oops sorry, forgot to turn on sharing, me bad. Link should be good now. With the fact second and third hits of chain heal have less overheal in situations where everyone is taking damage than the first hit of CH can see peeps heading back to BWL to replace some gear. I need to check what T2 does with lesser quality items (ie T5, badge items equipted).

• Binkenstein · 12/18/07, 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

While the itemization isn't quite as absurd for this as it used to be, Tidal Mastery is a damn good place to spend 5 points if you're already spending 3/3 in Ancestral Healing, which you should be. I wouldn't spec 8/0/53 without it. The 25% AC boost that this proc provides will typically provide a good deal more AC than an Ironshield potion. In my current Kara-level gear, an AH proc is worth 3750 AC while an Ironshield is only 2500, and any raid tank can tell you how Ironshields save their ass. It doesn't seem like a lot, but 5% more crit across 3 shamans in the raid trying to get a 15% proc goes a very long way indeed.

Tidal Mastery & Ancestral Healing are one of the two "pairs" of talents for resto that I think should be "both or neither" calls.

The other being Imp HW & Healing Way.

Skyhoof · 12/18/07, 6:06 PM

Removed first part of post because the T2 set bonus math was indeed correct. My bad

-----
Also, your values do not include the Tier 6 set bonus. The mana cost you list are the normal mana costs with talents. You need to include those T6 set bonuses in your calculations -- and drink more coffee

• Binkenstein · 12/18/07, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Total Healing = T1 + (T1*0.5)*1.3+ (T1*0.25)*1.3

I usually went with:
B+(M*B)+(M*M*B)
Where B is the base heal on the first target, and M is 0.5, or 0.65 with the set bonus.

Nite_Moogle · 12/18/07, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Tidal Mastery & Ancestral Healing are one of the two "pairs" of talents for resto that I think should be "both or neither" calls.

The other being Imp HW & Healing Way.

There's not much excuse to skip Imp HW unless you exclusively chain heal, and you're probably a terrible shaman if you do that. The 5% mana savings you'd get on the rest of your spells isn't much to offset the ridiculous throughput increase that Imp HW gives. Healing Way's usefulness is debatable (I'm personally a fan), but I'd agree it's worthless without Imp HW.

Zorick · 12/18/07, 6:56 PM

Might be a simple question to answer, but the amount of mana given to you through Ancestral Knowledge essentially scales with gear. So as my gear gets better, obviously I will gain more +int, I get more mana from it. So at what point does the spec of 0/5/56 actually become a decent addition to your mana pool?

If my personal calculations are correct, it is fairly difficult to gain that much +int to even justify having spec'd this way.

That being said, which of the two T1 talents in the elemental tree should I be taking? I was leaning toward Convection for reduced shock cost, because when you think about it, in a normal attempt on say Illidari Council or Kael, I am probably shocking enough to make up for that 500 mana. Any got anything else to add on that?

Pokkai · 12/18/07, 6:57 PM

or you have tier 6 set bonuses

paladins single target heal, not me. I use chain heal.

Nite_Moogle · 12/18/07, 7:05 PM

So at what point does the spec of 0/5/56 actually become a decent addition to your mana pool?

When you're raiding zones that have no raid-wide fire, frost or nature damage at all.

Skyhoof · 12/18/07, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Zorick

Might be a simple question to answer, but the amount of mana given to you through Ancestral Knowledge essentially scales with gear. So as my gear gets better, obviously I will gain more +int, I get more mana from it. So at what point does the spec of 0/5/56 actually become a decent addition to your mana pool?

If my personal calculations are correct, it is fairly difficult to gain that much +int to even justify having spec'd this way.

I am so glad we have won a convert to the 8-0-53 club. Welcome!

Originally Posted by Zorick

That being said, which of the two T1 talents in the elemental tree should I be taking? I was leaning toward Convection for reduced shock cost, because when you think about it, in a normal attempt on say Illidari Council or Kael, I am probably shocking enough to make up for that 500 mana. Any got anything else to add on that?

Personally, I took Concussion (+5% damage). I farm in elemental gear and it boosts my damage when I pvp in my resto gear. During Kael and other bosses, I use Rank 1 Earth Shock for interrupts so the mana cost of shocks is not a concern for me.

Zorick · 12/18/07, 7:15 PM

Well, I have been trying to convince myself to spec this way for awhile now, I was just lacking the ambition to do the math for it. And God forbid I post on the Class forums and expect an intelligent discussion to break out, ha!

Needless to say, I am logging into WoW, and am going to respec for tonights raid. Thanks for the help with the matter.

Nite_Moogle · 12/18/07, 7:27 PM

The amount of mana that you get form AK does scale with gear, but it doesn't scale with any of your abilities or regen from mp5 or any other abilities. It's just extra mana on the top. There's just no way you can prioritize that over 10% elemental damage reduction. At most you're buying enough mana pool space for a few extra heals.

Now if you were one of the classes that had another ability tied to your mana pool size (like Mages with Evocation) it'd be another story, but there is no real incentive to increase the size of your mana pool at the expense of anything else.

Pitbuller · 12/18/07, 7:48 PM

Mana Tide Totem
3% of Base Mana
Instant cast	5 min cooldown
Summons a Mana Tide Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster
for 12 sec that restores 6% of total mana every 3 seconds to group
members within 20 yards.

Right weight for or Total Mana * (1 + 0.24 *number mana tides)
Usually number of mana tides is 1 or 2.

Yekkom · 12/18/07, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

The three-piece set bonus of Ten Storms is “increases the amount healed by Chain Heal to targets beyond the first by 30%”

I couldn’t download the actual spreadsheet but I worked out what formula you used to calculate the set bonus:

Total Healing = T1 + (T1*0.5)*1.3+ [(T1*0.5)*1.3]*0.5*1.3

T1= Healing done to Target #1

I believe the correct formula is:
Total Healing = T1 + (T1*0.5)*1.3+ (T1*0.25)*1.3

If I understand the set bonus correctly, the plus 30% is applied seperately to each jump beyond the first. You can’t divide the healing done on the second jump in half and then add 30%. You need to take 25% of the first heal and then multiply by 30%. Otherwise, you are double counting the 30% boost.

Also, your values do not include the Tier 6 set bonus. The mana cost you list are the normal mana costs with talents. You need to include those T6 set bonuses in your calculations -- and drink more coffee

If I can find the time, I will do the math and post the results (properly coded for easy reading).

My fault for not being awake when I started this. T6 2 pc is corrected. You should get the full document now. Make a copy it to adjust.

Going to stay with second bounce chainheals Formula till I see different. Binkenstien and Thud00 both use the same formula as I do. I may be totally wrong and if so will adjust if so. Need more input.

Sorry list is a mess, I work in Construction not spreadsheets so if someone wants to clean up please be my guest.

• Binkenstein · 12/18/07, 8:16 PM

I think back when I was running BWL I went through the math and confirmed a 0.65 multiplier on the set bonus. Can't remember where I did the math but there you go

galzohar · 12/18/07, 8:25 PM

When you didn't go oom you had wasted mana, when nobody died because of your lack of HPS you had wasted HPS. If the boss dies in a smooth kill you had too much of both most likely. Is that a bad thing? Not really, as if something had gone wrong, you could've needed more of either. So basically you can't argue against more mana as "I don't need more mana" as same can be said about HPS. However when you actually look at it as "so what do I need more, mana efficiency or HPS?" you realize that at least most of the time, HPS is more of an issue than mana efficiency. However this isn't nescessarily the case in every fight and/or for every raid setup, so shouldn't be looked at as a rule of thumb (or we'd see everyone stacking pure +healing/haste ignoring other stats completely).

• Binkenstein · 12/18/07, 8:40 PM

Generally I'd go mana -> hps -> efficency.

Ie: make sure i have the mana to last the fight, make sure I have the HPS to heal my target enough, then try to make things more efficent (downranking, cast cancelling, avoiding healing same targets, etc).

Vishor · 12/18/07, 8:51 PM

For the Healing basics and/or Pro-tip section:

Some fights will require different strategies of gear; be it group make up (Shadow priests) or Boss mechanics (Reliquary/Essence of Souls). Carrying different sets of gear, trinkets, and weapons (enchants) to swap in can help maximize Healing per second over time. Examples could include two healing maces, one with +81 Healing, another with Spellsurge. The sets of gear to try to collect include a mana regen set (something around 200mp5 unbuffed) a pure +healing (perhaps 2800ish depending on the drop rate of healing maces >.<) and even a spell haste set (not sure of a haste rating value). The majority of fights will want a nice mix of healing and regen but there are a few that would favor a more "purist" set.

In many end-game guilds the same raiders tend to be present every week. This means that learning the places they like to stand, and the style of play they enjoy (I am thinking Illidan Demon Phase) can help maximize chain heal effectiveness. By learning where your fellow raiders like to stand you can, hopefully, make the quick decision on whether a quick Lesser Healing Wave, Healing wave or Chain Heal would yield the most benefit.

I believe it was mentioned, but I want to emphasize pre-healing. Karazhan and to a lesser extent some of the 25 mans can be healed fine by reactively healing (that is waiting for the raid/tank to take damage, then healing them up) however in later aspects of the game namely Magtheridon and beyond it is essential to either downrank spam (I prefer HW rank 7) or max rank and cancel even if the tank/target is at full health. The tricky point of this is trying to pre-heal raid damage. If you know that some melee is going to take raid damage, but are unsure who, simply target one of them and begin casting chain heal. As long as the heal comes after the damage at least two of the chains should heal the wounded. Pre-healing like this tends to be rather in-efficient and grosses a large amount of overhealing, but is almost necessary.