Vlydia

Buy your spinels with badges!

 

Daidalos

More like fist weapons! But yeah after I get a few more badges I can start getting gems and thankfully some classes haste gems are just as good as pure dmg gems so I'm hoping the demand for spinels goes down.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

galzohar

Remember haste HPS > healing HPS > mp5 HPS = 0
For most people MP5 efficiency >= +healing efficiency > haste efficiency >= 0

+healing increases efficiency as it allows you to heal more with the same mana. mp5 increases efficiency as it allows you to cast more heals. Healing also increases (burst) HPS while mp5 doesn't.

Since the loss of efficiency (if even a loss at all) of gemming healing over mp5 is quite small, but the loss of efficiency by gemming haste is big, for general purpose gear healing is the best gemming choice. You're losing some noticeable HPS by not socketing haste but when efficiency is an issue you're losing very little and socketing mp5 would cause you to lose a lot more HPS in burst situations than you lose by socketing +healing.

If you could get 2 sets then obviously socket 1 with healing (or mp5) and the other with haste, but that's probably not going to happen anytime soon, so if you're not 100% sure wether you'll need HPS a lot more than efficiency or the other way around, or you know you'll need both about equally, then +healing would be the best thing to socket. If an item happens to have a lot of haste and horrible efficiency (for example the ZA haste neck if it had sockets), though, socketing with haste is not a bad idea, as you would only wear it when HPS is much more important than efficiency in which haste gems are by far better.

 

• Raut

What are you on about, galzohar? You don't lose HPS by socketing +heal and haste is only as good as the fundamental heal if fuels off.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Daidalos

To clarify that is true per point but not (always) true in itemization cost. In the example of 10 haste or 22 healing it depends on how much healing and how much haste you have as to which is more HPS.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

galzohar

You're right. Assuming the 125% coefficient spread on all the heals, with 2k +healing you will gain more rank5 CH HPS by using your itemization on healing. That's what blizzard gets for putting a 125% effective coefficient on a 2.5s cast spell, making haste a complete waste of itemization for it. Not that haste does nothing, but if you can choose equally itemized items the haste item will always lose on HPS not to mention efficiency. So for chain healers haste socketing is never an option no matter what.

For MT healing though, with HW/LWH that gets a realistic coefficients, haste would increase HPS by more than +healing would. It's probably not worth the efficiency sacrifice in most/all fights though, not to mention how rarely you're on MT healing anyway.

 

Daidalos

Actually the HPS is very comparable.

Here is what HPS increase actualy translate into for different amount of haste and healing.
As you can see in the example 100 haste can be greater than 220 healing in HPS increase. I'd say the sweet spot is in the 100 < X < 200 haste range for a fully decked sunwell resto shaman. However if you don't already have 100 haste on your gear haste could very well be a larger HPS increase than +heal. This is why we have stat weights and only can make generalization about very specific gear. Haste is a percent increase and therefore scales with healing it also has dimished returns as you stack more meaning its about a balance between the 2. Not to mention haste has a greater affect vs healing on our other heals although we don't use them more than 10% of the time on average.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

galzohar

The point is since haste would need to be a noticeable HPS addition over +healing to be worth the efficiency sacrifice. Say if 10 haste with a certain gear level would give HPS equal to the HPS achieved by +25 healing, you'd be giving up 22 healing worth of efficiency for 3 healing worth of HPS. This would require you to be extremely overflowing with mana to even think about it and even then you'd probably not take it.

The fact the HPS is compareable between haste and +healing is what makes it bad. For haste to be something to consider to increase HPS, it needs to be noticeably higher HPS per itemization budget than +healing. This just doesn't happen for chain heal although it does happen for other spells that have a more "standard" coefficient.

Of course this is saying nothing about MP5 vs haste, as on that comparison you're giving up pure efficiency for pure HPS, in which case HPS can win if the fight requires it more than it requires efficiency.

 

Daidalos

No the point is you can now socket yellow gems and not loose HPS meaning that in some cases you can pickup socket bonuses by using haste gems instead of only using red 22 healing gems and ignoring socket bonuses.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Chewy

I always assumed haste would give the same type of return on efficiency as +healing. More heals in a given amount of time allows you to downrank your heals right? Same as having larger heals in the same amount of time?

 

galzohar

The actual efficiency increase from haste is actually rather small if you do the math. Say you cast only CH5 for simplification, with HPM5/HPS5 and HPM4/HPS4 being the HPM/HPS of CH5 and CH4,

You will need HPS5/HPS4-1 haste (*1570 to convert to rating) to turn all the CH5s to CH4s, increasing your mana efficiency by HPM4/HPM5-1. If you do the math spending the same itemization you would on haste on something like +healing and just staying with CH5 your efficiency would grow more (I expect the amount of haste rating required to be quite high).

In other words, you can see the efficiency increase by downranking all your spells to CH4 and then calculate how much +healing (or MP5) is needed to get CH5 the same efficiency increase. This will also apply when mixing CH5s and CH4s and adding small amounts of haste thus convering a small amount of CH5s to CH4s gaining a small amount of efficiency - the idea and the numbers you'd get is the same as the simplified calculation above.

If you're already at looking at HPS->efficiency conversions, keep in mind +healing also increases HPS on top of the HPM increase and thus also allows more downranking and thus even *more* efficiency. Since +healing increases HPS by similar levels as haste per itemization, it'll give about the same HPS->efficiency as haste (which wouldn't be a huge value) and on top give it's normal HPM increase (which would be the main part of the efficiency increase).

So even while haste does increase efficiency slightly, +healing will always increase it more, both due to adding HPM and by adding about the same HPS. Even on other (non-chainheal non-CoH) spells where healing adds quite lower HPS than haste does, the combined HPS->efficiency and HPM significantly beats the HPS->efficiency of haste.

 

thescreensavers

I just got [Vial of the Sunwell]
and I want to know if its any good.

I now use [Battlemaster's Perseverance]

the use saves me from chain heal aggro.

the other trinket I use is [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle]

But how does that new trinket size up. From my battlemaster


Thanks

 

Yessia

Depending on how much fire/nature/frost damage the later encounters have I could definitely see a spec with imp ghost wolf(and possibly down to imp goa/soe if needed) as more viable, for as you said SWP and I've been a diehard 8/0/53 fan forever. As little mana as it is, Ancestral knowledge is still more useful then either t1 elemental talent, and a movement speed buff that costs you nothing but 1 GCD is very handy, I know atleast once or twice being able to ghost wolf has kept me from missing a portal on Kalecgos.

 

Bokomatic

I've made a little spreadsheet for shammy healing.
I understand that everyone has his own spreadsheet for healing spells, but i discovered that some formulaes at wowwiki are incorrect, even based on blueposts. So i hope my spreadsheet may be useful for some1 just because there are checked numbers.

I've got Draezele's 'Shaman Healing Efficiency' spreadsheet, checked it, tested, removed mistakes and modified.

Original article + spreadsheet:
Draezele's Spreadsheet
Draezele's Article

My spreadsheet (without macros, pure XLS):
RestoShammySpells_v240_20080330.zip

RestoShammySpells.xls calculates Avg.Healed, HPS, HPM, MP5 spent for each valuable shammy's heal.
In addition the real HPS depending on current MP5/Manapool/Time of fight calculated for each spell.

Sheets:
'Notes' - just notes ^^
'HPM;HPS' - complex table for calculating HPS, HPM, Avg.Healing and other
'2.4 check' - results of checking spells after patch 2.4
'Coeff' - table for different kinds of scaling HPS/+healing, HPM/+healing
'HS/ES coeff' - experimantal data and calculations of coefficients for Healing Stream and Earth Shield
'DR coeff' - just table of right downranking penalties

All formulaes and coefficients were checked by series of ingame experiments.
The method was based on minimal/maximal amount healed by spell.

For example:
I have formulae for Lesser Healing Wave Rank2. I calculate minimal and maximal amount healed [744.4;782.9]
I reset data in Recap addon and start using LHW2 on myself, Recap shows me minimal and maximal heals from this test. If formulae is incorrect real values dont match theoretical ones. If its right real values are in the theoretical bracket. In my case real values are [745;783]. So i make a decision that formulae are right.

Note1:
Downranking penalties at wowwiki are incorrect. And original blizzard posts are incorrect too.
([Level at which next higher rank of Spell is Learned] + 5) / [Character Level] = [Downranking Coefficient]
This formula doesn’t match real data.

wowwiki # downranking

The right formula for lvl70 character is: ([Level Learned] + 11) / 70
Some clever pala discovered and checked it 1st, and ive checked it for shammy. It works nice.

Original paladin post is here:
elitistjerks.com # downranking test

Note2:
I found lots of incorrect numbers for Earth Shield and Healing Stream at wowwiki.

wowwiki # Earth_Shield
There is incorrect scaling coefficient (30%). Real is 28.6% per tick.

wowwiki.com # Healing_Stream_Totem
Incorrect scaling coefficient too (6%). Real is 4.4% per tick. In addition Healing Stream is affected by Purification talent.

www.wowwiki.com # Healing_Comparison
As result the final table is incorrect about ES and HST too.

Note3:
On use effects, relics, haste and "5 second rule" arent intended in spreadsheet yet.
So this spreadsheed may be useful by right(checked) coefficient numbers.

Note4:
28.03.2008 Corrected Earth Shield in the tables due to changes in 2.4 patch.
I've discovered that Blizzard changed coefficient for ES Rank1. Old one was 28.6%, new one is 26.55% per tick ((
It seems Blizzard applied downranking penalty to ES1 as to lvl54 spell. And didnt tip it in patchnotes, hehe

I hope it can be useful for someone. Thnx 4 attention.

 

Skyhoof

The instant ghost wolf is a very nice talent. It could definitely help with the first boss in Sunwell, plus Supremus in Black Temple and most of Hyjal. However, if you are ever in a melee group or the main tank group, you might as well go 0-12-49 for the improved strength and agility totems.

 

Daidalos

I have known about the healing stream coef for awhile. It is 6% a tick but thats after talents. The base is about 4.4% in my calculations I use 4.3636. I have not done any in game testing since 2.4. Interesting data though I'll have to check against my calculations in game to verify but last I checked my healing wave calculations seemed right except for those learned below lvl 20 I just never got around to fixing.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Skyhoof

Thanks for sharing your spreadsheet. It's quite impressive. I'll let Daidalos and our other resident mathematicians (Hey, Binkenstein!) vet your formulas and then I'll update the first post with the correct information. Wowwiki has a lot of bad information when it comes to shaman spells. The numbers it gives were perhaps correct at some point but not any more (just a guess).

Any chance you could add an option to the top for the Tier 6 set bonuses similar to the option for the Tier 4?

 

Krypt0s

On the topic of the instant Ghost Wolf, I've been toying with my fairly standard 8/0/53 build to try to trim some of the less useful stuff out of resto in order to make room for 7 points in enhance. To give a little context, our guild is currently 4/9 BT, and I'm not currently willing to give up Elemental Warding to go 0/12/49. Focused mind was an easy 3 points since it was a dubious choice to begin with. I feel I can safely drop Healing Grace since aggro is unlikely to be an issue, and if it is, we likely have larger problems than my spec. Finally, I could drop a point in improved reincarnation and probably not notice it. The final result was this 8/7/46 build.

Any thoughts as to major pitfalls I could be walking into here?

 

Bokomatic

How did you get so precise value? Just alot of experiments with different +healing and linear regression then?
And about your spreadsheet... What does 'Healing/sec/mana' mean? For what purpose did you involved this value?

Is your spreadsheed available in Excel/OOCalc formats? I just have some troubles with GDocs.

 

Skyhoof

I would consider whether Nature's Guardian will help you survive more than Elemental Warding. This could come down to whether you are more prone to stand in fires or pull healing aggro on trash. However, if you want Elemental Warding and instant Ghost Wolf, your spec is solid. In fact, I think I'll put a link to it on the first page.

EDIT: Here's what I will probably use when I go back to resto. I like the threat reduction because I am always healing Kara and 5-man with someone's alt tank in blues.
0-7-54

 

Bokomatic

Its possible ofc, but i dont have T6 yet, so it will be unchecked data. Actually i think my spreadsheed is pretty casual and dont have something new in comparison with Daidalos' one. I made it just because i dont like unchecked data.
My 1st priorities now is check relics and intend in the spreadsheet, add 'on use' thingies, and may be develop some sheme for valuation HealingWay uptime when we dont spam HW.

P.S. The most interesting fact for me was Earth Shield mechanics. When it's applied to myself it's affected by Purification, when ES applied to tank it isn't affected by Purification.

 

Shae

Skyhoof, I picked up [Eye of Gruul] late last week and have been using [Insightful Earthstorm Diamond] for a while. It's only been a few hours of raiding since then, but I've been observing that Mana Restore procs 2-3 times more frequently than Healing Trance. We're only talking 100s not 1000s of casts, but the numbers do appear close to 2% for the Eye and 5% for the Diamond, based on the "Hits" column in WWS which I believe will count each jump of CH. Just some data for proc rate debates and the TODO in the original post.

[edit: grammar]

 

Daidalos

Alot of testing with very high amounts of +healing. I haven't been as comprehensive as you have though and I am using wowwiki forumas for the most part. Yeah the purification for ES is one of those "gotchas" For my calculations I assumed it was .3 coef I'm curious that your testing seems to indicate it being a little lower. Basically I'm very glad someone is doing this since I keep meaning to then get distracted. Flame shock and healing stream gave me fits trying to fix thier coefs. I'm still not entirely happy with my flame shock coef but I think they are close now.

As for excel format you can just export from gdocs and save as .xls it will work with both Open office and excel. If that doesn't work I can email the .xls sheets to you. I work out of excel but I try to keep the gdocs updated.

Anyways great work boko I'm def interested in fixing any coefs where applicable. I can also get up to 3k +healing when trinketed for testing coefs which is kinda handy :-p

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Thibs

Anyone know if the Flask of Spreme Power adds +heal as well as damage? I'm thinking it might be a good alternitive to Mighty Restoration in fights where HPS is more important then longevity.

 

Rott

It does not.