I find the proc on eternal restorer to be too good. Its almost always up, however I have recently come to love haste so maybe I'll change over.
I definately prefer the haste over the +heal proc. I only have one karabor ring so I wear the [Signet of the Quiet Forest] most of the time and swap in the eternal restorer for stam fights.
Originally Posted by SlydeWHOOSH
Have you guys considered the possibility of using the following ring:
Yes I have looked at it. 4 stam 5 int and 2mp5 isn't nearly as good as 8 haste. Overall its a good ring though and since we have stopped doing BT for awhile I'm considering it but a pure HPS comparison Karabor is certainly superior. Again go off your own experiences we only had 2 resto shaman for our brut kill last night and I spammed CH5 for 5mins and 35s. With a shadow preist in my group I only had time for 1 mana tide (blowing Mana tide earlier wouldn't have helped much since I was over 90% mana) and only had to pot once at the very end. I can't really imagine a more mana stressing situation so at this point mp5 is of very little value to me.
AFAIK the Aldor proc has an internal cooldown of 45 seconds, so we can probably assume it having a effective 1 proc per minute.
In other words, +200 healing for 10 sec every 60 seconds. Which gives us averagely +33 healing over 60 seconds.
So its 70+33->
103 healing, 7 mana/5 and 19 stam
vs
82 healing, 33 spell haste, 360 mana and 19 spirit (and 0.3% spell crit *yay*)
What is better really depends what you rather need.
If running out of mana and hitpoint buffer are no issue, but outhealing incoming damage is the Brooch is better. It has the bigger healing boost, but is worse for endurance fights.
It looks like there’s agreement on the Best in Slot items, except for the rings. When you convert the proc on [Band of the Eternal Restorer] to a static amount of +healing, the Eternal Restorer looks better on paper than [Blessed Band of Karabor]. However, in actual raids, I would have to agree that constant values are better than sporadic procs. I will update my post and add the best in slot list to the main page.
Until the Glimmering Naaru Sliver drops, we’re going with the assumption that you won’t be able to move or cast while channeling. We’re also assuming the channeling can be interrupted. Based on those assumptions, it’s not one of the best trinkets. However, if it simply restores mana over 8 seconds, it would be right up there with the [Redeemer's Alchemist Stone] and far superior to [Tome of Diabolic Remedy].
==========================
Scryer Proc: Arcane Surge heals your target for 618-682.
There is 45-second cooldown. The proc is not affected by +healing gear or talents. The proc can crit and the crit rate may be affected by gear and talents (unconfirmed). Nature’s Guardian can trigger the proc. Earthshield can trigger the proc if you cast it on yourself.
[quote=Skyhoof;702295]
P.S. What did you think of using the Band of the Eternal Restorer over a second Blessed Band of Karabor? Is +8 stam, +5 int, +20 healing and +4 mp5 > 30 haste?QUOTE]
Depends if you want more HPS or more efficiency, really, which as already said depends on the fight and raid/party composition, so your question (or others of that kind) doesn't really have a definite answer, at least not one that would be independant of the fight and raid/party composition.
I think the issue at hand is +healing procs are unpredicatable. You can say they're up 15-20% of the time and worth +XXX amount of healing on average, but unlike "clicky" trinkets like Diabolic Remedy, you can't count on them to be there when you most need them.
In short, it's all about control. I'd prefer to be in control of how big and how fast my heals are (ie. different spell ranks and spell haste). If I know a burst is incoming and extra healing is needed (say a boss enrages, or Brutallus is going to stomp and a healer is moving out for burn), I'll up my ranks and or swap to HW or something. I'm not going to pray that my scarab of infinite cycle or my ring's going to proc at that time to save us. I'd prefer not to go around spamming a lower rank spell hoping my ring proc's a ton to make it heal more.
In that regard, I pretty much treat those proc's the same as I'd treat spell crit. They're nice, but they're unpredictable and more or less just a bonus.
A +healing proc is about the same kind of effectiveness as the +healing portion of crit (ignoring the armor bonus) - it'll add to your average HP/mana healed and average HPS (and thus using slightly less mana by being more efficient with more HPS), but it will not help your reliable max burst to save someone from dying, as like crit there's a good chance it won't be up when needed. So the procs only help efficiency with the averaged value but don't add to burst HPS.
On use healing is different as it can be used on burst situations but can't always be used on all of them, so its usefullness for burst is fight-dependant. Generally if you heal bursts very often though the burst HPS increase of on-use trinkets isn't really there as like procs it'll often not be up when needed (but still give the efficiency increase). If you're needing burst very rarely you'll be quite likely to have it available making it more useful. Plus a 120 +healing on use has a lot more burst than constant 20 +healing if you can actually use it every time a burst is needed, but that's a pretty big "if".
Another point to consider is that if you are saving your +heal click trinkets for when burst damage occurs, it is possible (and most likely) you are decreasing the value of the on use ability somewhat by missing entire cool-down cycles.
While i understand the logic of saving them until they are needed, in fact I'm sure i do this myself. If this is your play style you are decreasing the average HEP of value of the trinket proc, and this should be noted when making gear comparisons.
Smart-using trinkets is, by definition, better than using them every cooldowns. Think about it, if it's inferior then it's not smart and is contradicting itself
Wether smart-using is using every cooldown or not depends on what you're fighting, but by definition smart-using is going to be at least as good as hitting it every cooldown, never worse.
Bottom line is smart-using trinkets is never a waste assuing you're actually smart. Therefore the use trinkets are at least as good as if you would've just hit them on every cooldown.
I'm sorry Galzohar but i have to disagree with you.
Smart use trinkets (whlie i only spoke of burst use, but whatever) are based on the idea that X+healing for Y seconds will more useful at a time in the future (t+n) rather than now (t+0). If n> than the CD of the trinket you have lost efficiency (with n being cumulative for the duration of the encounter, until n=cd then it starts over).
While in many cases bosses issue periodic burst damage to tanks or the raid; in other cases, such as parry strings, the exact timing of the danger is unforeseeable, and in fact may not occur. When trying to predict future events there is always some risk and the further one projects the wider the margin of error becomes. If you save your trinket use for parry a string that never comes was that efficient use?
Additionally there is the risk that at time (t+n+Y) the use of the trinket may have been more beneficial and one faces this possibility up to (t+n+cd), at which point the cycle starts over. If you used your trinket to get though a raid wide aoe rather than the parry string 20 seconds later, was that smart use?
When playing like this one risks average efficiency for periodic burst efficiency at what is hopefully a critical juncture. While I'm not condemning this play style by any means, i use it myself, there is no doubt that some risk is involved. While one can minimize this risk via smart play, in any game with even minimal risk play enough times and you guaranteed lose some iterations.
This means that smart use trinket style while usually the correct play are not always guaranteed to be as good use on every cool down. As i stated above when playing this way you reduce the average HEP value of the trinket on use ability somewhat, and this should be considered in gear comparisons.
Last edited by Vistol : 04/10/08 at 11:27 AM.
Ohh great i have 8 Main tanks signed up again and 4 healers.
Think about it this way - you say you lose from delaying the trinket, then why don't you just use it now and don't lose anything?
If it's better used later than using now, it's better to use later than to use now, and therefore using it later would be better than using it now....
If it isn't then just repeat that line replacing "better" with "not better".
In other words since nobody stops you from using the trinket whenever it's up, I'm assuming that if you choose to use it in any other way it's because you decided it is better to do so (which starts the loop again...).
Therefore you can never (at least on average) gain from a trinket less than what you would've gotten if you used it on every cooldown. The only thing you can lose is efficiency while gaining HPS but if you chose to do that then it's probably a net benefit (which brings me to the loop again).
You can't say that becuase it's better to use it later is a good idea, then the trinket loses value. You're just making a logical contradiction.
I know saying "at least" and "on average" in the same sentence is confusing, but what I mean by "at least" is actually "if we theorycraft its average value we will get at least", not that it's always better no matter how dice roll - as dice always cause a variance but we ignore that since it's small enough for anything that isn't a burst calculation (and I already mentioned how the effectiveness of such trinkets for burst purposes varies a lot depending on the fight).
Think about it this way - you say you lose from delaying the trinket, then why don't you just use it now and don't lose anything?
If it's better used later than using now, it's better to use later than to use now, and therefore using it later would be better than using it now....
If it isn't then just repeat that line replacing "better" with "not better".
Please stop rambling. We like to see numbers to back up an argument. I believe this is what Vistol is trying to explain to you.
Let's say you have [Essence of the Martyr]. If you use this trinket every time the cooldown is up, it grants you another 49.5 healing (297*20/120). However, if you save the trinket for more dicey situations, the +healing you get from it is diminished. If you use the trinket every four minutes, it only grants you another 24.75 +healing. If you use trinkets in this way, you need to lower the HEP value of the item so you can accurately compare it with items that have a passive effect.
So is it worth using a trinket every 4 minutes instead of every 2 minutes? Only if you will cast at least twice as many heals by saving it. For example, it could be worth saving a trinket to use during Bloodlust/Heroism or with a haste potion rather than using it exactly when the cooldown is available.
It could also be worth saving a trinket to supercharge a Healing Stream totem for use in certain fights.
At the end you always have the choice of using it on every cooldown, in which case you would get the numbers you listed. If you think you're not benefiting as much by not using it on every cooldown, use it on every cooldown. If you think you benefit more from not using it on every cooldown, use it when you think it's useful. Either way it's not possible to (on average) gain less than using it on every cooldown, due to always having the option to do so.
Let's say we have a raid wide silence every around 1 minute that lasts 20 seconds. If I used the trinket randomly, I would lose 1/3 of the effect, but I would also lose 1/3 of the effect of normal +healing, therefore the trinket is as good as the calculated value. If I was smart and calculated the chance for a silence to make me lose value and use it in a better way, I could increase my average gain from the trinket. But assuming I don't do something stupid, on average, I will get from the trinket its 49.5 healing. If it ended up using it ever 2min10s on average but avoiding coliding it with all silences, while I only gained ~95% of the effect but the rest of my gear is still worth only 2/3, so the trinket is effectively as good as ~143% of the effect (~128 +healing averaged). Of course this is an extreme example of being silenced 1/3 of the time but I hope the idea is clear enough.
Now if using it every more than 2 minutes causes you to actually lose average effectiveness, you just resort to using it on every cooldown. This means smart-using trinkets is at least as good as popping them on-cooldown, as in the worst case for the trinket the smart thing to do will be to use it whenever it's up and gaining the 49.5 healing on average.
The only way you'd lose efficiency is if you saved the trinket to help in burst scenarios, but that simply means you decided burst scenarios are more important to you than your efficiency and that the tradeoff was worth it, and therefore saving it for burst scenario is worth it. If you think it isn't worth it, again, just use it on every cooldown and gain the 49.5 healing on average.
Calculating the actual efficiency increase from the essence of the martyr is complicated buisness, but assuming smart play it'll increase your efficiency by at least as much as 49.5 healing would, unless you decided to trade it off for burst if you thought that was more crucial in which case you stil benefited more than increasing your efficiency by 49.5 healing equivalent by definition.
Again, the bottom line is that the worst way to use the trinket is mindlessly mashing it every cooldown which would give you the average effect of 49.5 healing increase to your efficiency (not reliable burst, though, as it wouldn't be reliable in this case). Anything else would be either same or a better use of it.
Again, the bottom line is that the worst way to use the trinket is mindlessly mashing it every cooldown which would give you the average effect of 49.5 healing increase to your efficiency (not reliable burst, though, as it wouldn't be reliable in this case). Anything else would be either same or a better use of it.
Your basis for this argument is extremely weak -- a raidwide silence every 1 minute that lasts for 20 seconds. This would be an extreme situation and not the normal way shaman heal in raids. In most fights, shaman spam Chain Heal. Because the amount of healing done is fairly constant, trinkets should be used at every cooldown. If you want to use the trinket less frequently, you must drastically increase the number of heals cast when the trinket is used. The only way to do this is with Bloodlust/Heroism, which is on a 10-minute cooldown.
My argument is based around the concept that we don't know what future conditions will hold. I believe that you need to add a uncertainty qualifier to your statements.
If it's possibly better used later than using now, it's possibly better to use later than to use now, and therefore using it later would possibly be better than using it now.
Sometimes ones valuation of the "use" or "not use" will be wrong resulting lost efficiency. You have chosen to ignore the dice and i do not.
Last edited by Vistol : 04/10/08 at 1:55 PM.
Ohh great i have 8 Main tanks signed up again and 4 healers.
It's not ignoring the dice, it's saying that the dice helps you just as much as it hurts you at the worst case scenario. And bad evaluation due to player error means the player should value his uses better, not that the trinket is not as good.
Skyhoof, the point is you simply can't bring up a scenario where the average benefit of the trinket will be less than an efficiency gain of 49.5 healing. Wether you can get a little more than that, a lot more than that, or anything like that was not my point. My point is that you will on average gain no less than efficiency value of 49.5 healing unless you intentionally use it poorly, and the only way to lose efficiency is if you decide to save it for burst in which case you decided is a benefit so you can't count it against the trinket. I'm not saying in practice you'll get a lot more than that, or even anything more, but you'll definitely not get less, at least on average.
At the end my main point is that you can't use something in a way that's supposed to be better and then use that as a claim against its usefullness. The usefullness is at least an efficiency increase of 49.5 healing, and every situation you'll come up with I'll show you that the trinket was at least as good as that, as long as you don't intentionally use it badly.
Did you really have to write over a thousand words to say "You should always use trinkets in the most effective way, because that's the most effective way to use trinkets"? Defining "smart use" as using trinkets on cooldown when that's better and saving them for burst healing when needed is a worthless tautology that doesn't say anything about how you should use trinkets.
lets say [Essence of the Martyr] comes off cool down just as the phase starts. I've decided to save it for a parry string. Now lets assume that Phase 2 takes exactly 2 minutes and we get no parry strings. I have wasted though no error or bad judgment an entire cool down cycle, and i don't think any of my assumptions are out of line with reality.
During this specific encounter it's usefulness was not 49.5 +heal it would be less.
You are addressing this as a binary set of choices ie do, or do not. With at worst ending up with spam usage. However due to uncertainty about future conditions it's more like a matrix (in fact the prisoners dilemma comes to mind). Proper independent conservative play reduces risk to you without knowledge of what the other actor (the RNG) will do yielding a set of non-optimal circumstances that are correct choices.
if viewed in this light holding off does reduce efficiency or HEP, and should be considered when comparing gear.
Ohh great i have 8 Main tanks signed up again and 4 healers.
Skyhoof, the point is you simply can't bring up a scenario where the average benefit of the trinket will be less than an efficiency gain of 49.5 healing. Wether you can get a little more than that, a lot more than that, or anything like that was not my point. My point is that you will on average gain no less than efficiency value of 49.5 healing unless you intentionally use it poorly, and the only way to lose efficiency is if you decide to save it for burst in which case you decided is a benefit so you can't count it against the trinket. I'm not saying in practice you'll get a lot more than that, or even anything more, but you'll definitely not get less, at least on average.
Reread my example using Essence of the Martyr. It's very easy to get less than 49.5 healing. All you have to do is wait more than 2 minutes to use the trinket. If you use it every 4 minutes, you gain 24.75 healing. That's not intentionally using it poorly. It could be, as Vistol outlined, waiting for a period of increased damage.
I wanted to submit our 4/8 Hyjal and 4/1 Black Temple WWS for peer review. I am looking for criticism of my shamans, as I want to ensure that I am optimizing my shamanss in the most efficient way possible. If you need more data, I have plenty more reports available. Thank you in advance for your help.
Reread my example using Essence of the Martyr. It's very easy to get less than 49.5 healing. All you have to do is wait more than 2 minutes to use the trinket. If you use it every 4 minutes, you gain 24.75 healing. That's not intentionally using it poorly. It could be, as Vistol outlined, waiting for a period of increased damage.
The reason this discussion is getting silly is becuase I don't see what's so hard to understand.
I never suggested what would be optimal use for a trinket, that obviously depends on the fight. What I was saying is that the 49.5 healing efficiency-wise is the worst you would get from it in a given fight. If you waiting for a period of increased damage is better than using it on every cooldown, then you agree it's worth more than just something that adds 49.5 healing to your efficiency? If you don't agree then it's not better and then you will use it on every cooldown and gain that value I listed.
No matter how you look at it, there is no scenario you can think of where the trinket is worse than gaining 49.5 healing on average efficiency-wise.
Why would you wait and use the trinket only every 4 minutes if it causes on average more harm than good? The only reason I can think of is if you absolutely need it to cover a burst, in which case it would help a lot more than some extra efficiency since the burst healing gained on that rare occasion is obviously more important to you than 49.5 healing on average to your efficiency. If it's not more important to you and you think 49.5 healing on average to your efficiency is better, then nothing is stopping you from getting that value. Since nothing prevents you from gaining that, there is no situation in which you can claim the trinket is less valueable than that.
I think the best way to make you understand what I'm saying is to ask you to bring a situation where the average benefit from the trinket is less than what I claim to be the minimum.
I wanted to submit our 4/8 Hyjal and 4/1 Black Temple WWS for peer review. I am looking for criticism of my shamans, as I want to ensure that I am optimizing my shamanss in the most efficient way possible. If you need more data, I have plenty more reports available. Thank you in advance for your help.
Arcaris doesn't seem to be dropping tide very much at all. Instances have a ton of trash and you shouldn't be afraid to drop it during the middle of that to allow for smoother chain pulling. Just because his/her mana may be full doesn't mean they should keep it off cooldown, watch the rest of the group too.
Hellcat and Arcaris don't use the insightful earthstorm diamond. They missed out on about 30k extra mana regen because of that over the course of the instance, to put that into perspective it is 15% of the mana that the shadow priest gave them for the night.
They both seemed to have a lot of mana spring totem downtime. If I use my raid from last night as an example, my mana spring restored 40% more mana over the night and our raid was only 30 minutes longer than yours. Here are my stats for comparison Wow Web Stats (I am Donko). This is only my 5th week of raiding so all my gear should be fairly attainable for them.
Much of this argument seems to be coming down to semantics concerning maximum theoretical gain and actual gain.
The maximum possible +healing of a trinket with an on-use function is the sum of the static +heal and the average +heal gained from the on-use, assuming that you pop it every time it comes off cooldown. There's no arguing this.
The actual gain varies greatly, being influenced by a wide variety of factors including the magnitude of damage being taken, the number of healers in the raid, how much effective healing your heal will actually do, and so on. What these all tie into is how much healing you're actually going to be doing when the trinket is popped. Assuming you've just used your Essence of the Martyr, what influence does the amounnt of healing you do have on the trinket's worth? If you cast six heals that are 100% effective healing as opposed to three, it's clear that the on-use would give you double the benefit.
Essence of the Martyr on-use: +297
Benefit for Healing Wave: +254.6
Extra healing done, 6 heals cast: 1527.6
Extra healing done, 3 heals cast: 763.8
In the first scenario, the on-use's overall worth is definitely more than that of the second. Because the number of heals you're going to cast is going to dependent on a whole hell of a lot of factors that aren't under your control, the benefit you're going to see from the Essence can vary widely over encounters, and even specific instances of those encounters. For example, what if that healing boost was enough to save a player (usually the MT) whose dying would cause a wipe? The trinket's worth would be immense as far as raid success goes, yet the actual +heal gain would be relatively small if you had only casted a few heals. You may not see a huge +heal bonus out of not constantly popping a trinket, but the overall worth may be greater. This point, I think, is the one that Galzohar was trying to make but failed, instead arguing that you could glean more than an average +49.5 healing (you can't).
Again, you're saying random factors can hurt this, but at the end every scenario you bring, from efficiency conerns the average benefit from the trinket when used properly will never be less than 49.5. In other words in a real fight you're more likely to benefit from it more than a simple 49.5 healing increase than you are to benefit less (aka average>=49.5). On every fight scenario you give me I can calculate the average benefit the trinket will give to you and every time it'll be at least 49.5 healing worth for efficiency.
If the trinket stopped a wipe, it's definitely better than a static 49.5 healing increase. In that scenario the trinket's value is greater than the average minimum, which works with what I was saying.
Regarding casting 6 heals vs casting 3 heals, it depends what you were doing for the rest of the fight. I don't disagree that bad luck can make you at the end look back and say "crap I got little from that trinket". But this will actually happen less often than saying "this trinket was better than 49.5 bonus to my efficiency", if given the fight.
You can gain more than the average of the trinket. For example if the fight lasts 2m20s you could pop it twice. If the fight has silences of any duration when you know they're coming you're going to not use it during a silence but rather when not silenced and therefore it's average uptime out of the total time you were healing will be greater. Remember that if you're casting 1/2 the heals over the whole fight, the trinket might be doing 1/2 the healing but so does the static +healing you get from gear, and therefore the trinket will give you the 49.5 healing. If you use it any wiser and actually cast more than 1/2 of the time of it being active, while still only casting for 1/2 of the total fight duration, you gained more than 49.5 healing. Remmeber we're comparing the trinket to +healing benefits in order to decide if it's better/worse than other items, not how much absolute healing it does, as then you'd also have to calculate the absolute healing other stats would give to have a basis for comparison, so it's easier to compare it directly to +healing.
In general there are a couple of possible scenarios:
1. There are no interruptions, in which case you use it whenever it's up and gain the average benefit.
2. You have no clue when interruptions happen. You pop it on every cooldown and gain the average benefit.
3. You have a clue when interruptions happen, so pop the trinket when you're not getting interrupted and thus have it's uptime% higher than average, and gain more than the average value.
4. You want the trinket for burst, and decide to save it. You will only make such decision if on average the burst benefit is more important than the efficiency benefit, therefore the trinket was better than just its average value.
Give me a situation where you think you're gaining something that is not as good as the average value of the trinket, and I'll show you how on average you're gaining at least as much if not even gaining something better. The sheer fact you have the option to mindlessly mash it on every cooldown alone means that at worst you have to agree that the average gain can't be anything less than the trinket's average value of 49.5 healing efficiency-wise.
04/09/08, 8:48 AM
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