Solia

So, unless am I reading that wrong the Lionseye and Amethyst are technically the best way to go based on the values you used?

I personally value stats a little differently than what is in the OP. I've been debating a lot lately if I want to use as many spinals as I originally planned on. I'm finding the haste and lower healing allows me to keep people alive better than high healing but slower casts. Regardless of how much you're healing for with each bounce it only reaches so many people. I'm finding the value of haste to be a little higher and that of healing to not be as high. MP5 is nice, and I take it where I can get it, but I don't value it enough to go out of my way for it.

 

Skyhoof

I get different HEP values but the same overall results, showing Lionseye + Royal SA are the best option (see note of caution about that conclusion below):

4 Spinels + Bracing Earthstorm = 114.4 + 33.8 = 148.2

2 Quick Lionseyes + 2 Royal SA + IED = 68.2 + 12 + 40 + 9.1 + 12 + 52.5 = 193.8

But you also have to consider using the Seaspray Emeralds in two slots

2 Seasprays + 2 Spinels + IED = +10 Haste and +4 mp5 + 17.5 mp5 +44 healing
= 20 + 12 + 52.5 + 57.2 = 141.7

So, yes, if we go by the HEP numbers in the OP the Lionseyes with the Royal SA are the best option but those numbers are going to be revised so I would hang on before making a decision. The mp5 value may be too high and distorting the values. To me, it doesn't make intuitive sense to sacrifice 4 spinels for other gems to get the meta gem proc.

 

Daidalos

I been re-thinking going for more haste after doing more twins attempts. That combined with the Illidan mace got me thinking how much more I could really heal if I just get more heals out in the same amount of time. I like gemming for +heal because I feel it is the most versatile of our stats however I may end up building a haste set for those situations where the sheer amount of raid dmg means that healing 10 for 1/3 of their heath is far better than healing 5 ppl for all of thier health kind of thing. But maybe we are just doing the twins wrong I so I haven't decided yet.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Bungmeister

For what it's worth Daidalos, I wear around 160 haste and 4pc T6 for that fight. I always thought Brutallus was healing intensive but Twins is on a different level in that how spread the damage is. (I believe twins talk is still forbidden so there'll be no details there.)

Judging from the way Sunwell has played out, I'm starting to think the pure number of targets healed is playing a greater role than the amount healed. I'm really not sure how to quantify it at all at the moment. Perhaps I'll give it some thought later when I have more time. All in all, Sunwell's damage intake has a strange feel of AV where damage taken is all over the place and it's more imporatant to land fast heals to many targets asap.

This is causing me to take a step back to consider my gems as our bank has tons and tons of lionseyes and no spinels. But I'm going to give it some more thought first.

Edit: And actually thinking about it some more, this also applies to something like Brutallus. The damage coming in isn't exactly periodic, and the key really feels like it's to land as many heals within a window before he destroys your tank. To that end, it's why you assign X amounts of healers spamming away, but haste will artificially increase the odds of your heals landing within that window. Not very well theorycrafted, I know, but it's just something that I've been mulling over.

 

Solia

I don't know how you're doing it, but I'm getting the same impression from the fight so far. I only have 1 1/2 nights of attempts on them, but I almost feel required to use tons of haste for it. It's a short fight, so I don't think mana will be an issue, and to many people are just taking to much damage at once. I'd rather give 9-10 people 1/3 of their HP then 5-6 people 2/3, especially since I know they will likely get the rest of their health from another healer.

Once I get all the Sunwell items I want I probably won't bother socketing for haste (besides meta requirements). Until then however, I think I'm going to go for more haste gems during progression.

 

Solia

This really sums up my experience with Sunwell so far. I really feel I am healing for enough already. The problem I'm seeing the most is healing lots of people fast enough. I trust the other healers enough that I don't have to heal everyone fully, just enough to keep them alive until they get topped off.

I don't really know how to theorycraft it, because it terms of the current HEP values, it doesn't add up. Just my personal experience is what I'm basing this off of.

 

Mekias

I'm not as familiar with the twins fight but couldn't you have your raid healers each have a primary responsibility for certain groups? I've always found that when tons of raid damage is coming in, multiple healers can end up trying to heal the target closest to death with the result that the next target closest to death can die since no one is healing him for a few seconds.

 

galzohar

While you can't realistically change enough gear to change from "healing 5 people for 2/3 of their health" to "healing 10 people for 1/3 their health", you could (at least more realistically than the other option) heal for "enough so that another healer doesn't need to top them off".

In other words, gearing haste just because the damage is spread out on more people isn't a very good argument to make unless the damage is extremely slow and consistent with sudden major bursts that force you to keep that small and consistent damage healed up on a lot of different people. Unless the fight is designed in such a way, the argument for haste "because I need to heal a lot of people" isn't very valid. More like needing better assignments, or if it's really spread out so much across everyone, maybe more CoH priests if the fight allows

 

Bungmeister

It actually is a perfectly valid statement. First of all, your assumption is wrong because practically every sunwell encounter has a consistent AoE damage that affects everyone to varying degrees (depending on your number of debuffs etc), and several burster moves that deal huge amounts of damage to differing number of people that will happen across groups.

As for the haste statement, you also need to realize that my haste gear gives me 2400 healing and my unhasted gear gives me 2500. Given around 200+ haste, I would find it hard to imagine that the extra heals I can cast can't make up for +100 healing.

Edit: I might add that, I don't deny that healing assignments could use some fine tuning. But our raid make-up is fairly random depending on who's online so we do have to make-due with what we get. Finally, the main difference between Sunwell gear and our current gear really is that each piece gives 30 haste and 10 healing. I think it's fairly safe to say that Blizzard is designing things with haste in mind, and regemming and using a haste set is a way to get there. I think it's fine so long as the +healing loss is minimal, but I admit that I haven't really gone through and done the math yet.

 

Daidalos

I was exaggerating to make a point. It seems that everyone who has done the fight agrees with me so far. If you have different experiences I'm willing to listen but if you haven't done the fight I don't really see how you can comment on our healing assignments.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

innocent

Itemvalue-wise (not stat weight) 1 haste gives 2.2 healing. Using 200 haste should drop your 2500 healing gear to 2000. And I'll take the haste.

 

Solia

I think you're right about the HEP values, but at the same time, what's best on paper isn't always best in practice. The mp5 makes it look better than it really is, my point was more than I think spinels are slightly overvalued right now. Giving up a really strong meta for an average one over a few spinels doesn't make sense to me. It's great, and certainly better to socket with spinels than amethyst, but not at the cost of haste. I lose a little bit of healing and gain haste, and some mp5, to make the gems I need for the meta. Since I find haste a lot more useful, it works out best for me.

In the long run I'm sure spinels will win out, they allow us a lot of room to maneuver. There is already a ton of haste on the Sunwell items. Just seems to me haste is king right now. With 327 haste I still have 2300 healing and 4pc t6. It's not like I'm really losing tons of healing. Down ranking is still entirely viable.

As for the meta, I really don't see another one I like better. I really don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything to get it.

 

Skyhoof

Here are the revised Tier 6 HEP values. I adjusted healing to equal 1.0

	New	Old
Stam	0.30	0.30
Int	0.75	0.42
Spirit	0.00	0.1
Heal	1.00	1.00
Crit	0.80	0.38
mp5	1.3	2.31
Haste	2.00	1.54
Armor	0.01	0.01

Using Pitbuller’s equation:
0.3 * healing(HEP) + (22.8/80) * crit(HEP) + (1 + 0.24 * number of manatides) * (15mana / (0.2 * duration) * mp5(HEP))

0.3 * 1.0 + 0.285 * 0.88 + (1 + 0.24) * (15 / (0.2 * 300)) * 1.32 = 0.9569

However, let’s assume it’s a 10-minute fight where Mana Tide is dropped once. The value for Intellect using Pitbuller’s equation becomes 0.7295 compared with the HEP value of 0.75. Now the HEP values seem consistent with the mechanics of the game.

Using these values we need to re-evaluate a few items for Best in Slot:

[Shroud of the Highborne] 158
[Cloak of Ancient Rituals] 124
[Shroud of Redeemed Souls] 118

[Kilt of Spiritual Reconstruction] 326
[Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm] 270
[Leggings of Eternity]* 252
* Using all red gems

[Ring of Flowing Life]163
[Blessed Band of Karabor] 162

Someone (Rosholm) already mentioned the jewelcrafting BOP ring being the best in slot using the old HEP values and it seems to still hold true with the new ones.

The only real surprise is the Chain Links of Tumultuous Storm, which is a DPS caster item. In fact, it’s the item that is transmuted into Kilt of Spiritual Reconstruction. Basically, the haste on these legs outweighs the lower +healing when compared with the Leggings of Eternity, which have no haste. So if these drop but your guild can’t spare a sunmote for a transmute they would still be worth equipping and using.

Gemming
Now that we have some solid HEP values (I hope anyway) let’s take a look at gemming our best-in-slot items again.

[Teardrop Crimson Spinel] x 4 + [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] = 88 healing + 26 healing = 114 healing = 114 HEP

[Quick Lionseye] x 2 + [Royal Shadowsong Amethyst] x 2+ [Insightful Earthstorm Diamond] = 20 spell haste + 22 healing + 4 mp5 + 17.5 mp5 + 4 mp5 (socket bonuses) + 7 healing (shoulder socket bonus) + 12 Intellect
= 20 spell haste + 29 healing + 25.5 mp5 +12 Intellect
= 40 + 22 + 5.2 +22.75 + 5.2 +7 + 9= 111.15 HEP

[Forceful Seaspray Emerald] x 2 + [Teardrop Crimson Spinel]x 2 + [Insightful Earthstorm Diamond]=+10 Haste and +4 mp5 + 17.5 mp5 +44 healing + 12 Intellect
= 20 + 5.2 + 22.75 +44 + 9 = 100.95

So, using all Spinels (except perhaps for the helm with the yellow slot) seems to maximize healing. However, there's a strong argument to be made for gemming with 2 Quick Lionseyes and 2 Royal Shadowsong Amethysts. By using the yellow and purple gems, you lose 85 healing but gain 20 spell haste and 25.5 mp5 and 12 Intellect. And given that there’s no cooldown on the IED and spell haste will increase the number of spells cast, a good argument could be made to gem in this manner.

EDIT: Also looks like the [Botanist's Gloves of Growth] with 2 red gems are better than the [Gauntlets of the Ancient Frostwolf]

EDIT2: Forgot to include the +12 Intellect on IED

 

Mishael

For the IED you did not add in the 12 Int from the meta.

12*.75 = 9 so total HEP for the meta with sockets = 111.15

 

Skyhoof

Fixed. Thanks.

 

Mishael

How do you come to that value for crit? TBQH that seems very high.

 

Skyhoof

OK, math isn't my strong point so please bear with me butchering these calculations:

Amount healed + amount healed * 0.5 *(% crit rate)
Then I multiplied by 1.05 for the T6 set bonus
Then divided by the time it takes to cast the heal (factoring in haste) to get HPS
(Crit healing/sec – reg healing/sec) divided by crit rating (22.07) = value of crit

Here’s a example (forgive the rounding):

Your chain heal normally heals for 5300. With a 15% crit rate, you get about 5700 on average of healing done. And with T6 the average healing done rises to nearly 6000. If you have 20% haste, then you get: 6000/(2.5/(1+.2) = 2885 hps. Let’s say with no crits you can heal 2878 hps, for a difference of 13 hps. 13 hps/22.07 (crit rating) = 0.59

Now if the value for healing is around 0.65, then the crit rating becomes 0.59/.65 = .91

 

Bokomatic

A little comment to crit value estimating.

Everyone knows that healing crits go to overheal more often than normal heals.
It happens just because you predict how much you should to heal now and you don't hope for lucky crit.
So average crit is lesser than 150% of average normal heal. So actual value of crits must be lesser than calculated on the base of 150% coefficient. Its first point.

And the second point is ancestral fortitude procs caused by crits. Depends on this fact crit value must be higher than just addidional heal/hps.

Actually i don't know how to solve numerically this dialectic problem. But its definitely should be taken into account when you calculate numerical value for crit.

 

TheSorcerer

And the first point not entirely accurate. The point of the numeric values is to optimize theoretical hps, without taking overheal into consideration. While overheal should be considered when selecting your gear you shouldn't directly consider it when optimizing your gear for hps. Spellcrit will increase your hps just as any other stat.

I believe we try to optimize for hps using chainheal. While you can use chainheal for your tank healing you will most likely be assigned for raid healing when aiming for max hps chainheal. In this case your ancestral fortitude buff will have close to no effect to your "effective hps" (taking damage mitigation produced by your buff into account).

After all, I guess we can just consider that ancestral fortitude will make up for what we lose to overhealing crits

 

Mandrachalos

Skyhoof, you are still assuming the IED has a 2% proc rate as far as I can see.

Has it been confirmed yet whether or not it got stealth buffed to 5% like Wowhead seems to be saying?

I am still not sure.

 

Bokomatic

Hmm... In my opinion spellcrit differs from any other way to increase my hps.
Each player have his own overheal percentage based on his preferably playstyle. I.e. if i have more +healing i will downrank spells in another way but i will choose spells for keeping tank at full hp and my overheal will be the same.

Example:
Assume that some shaman has 1000 theorertical hps and 10% overheal. His real hps is 900.
He increases theoretical hps for +100, now he has 1100 hps and the same overheal. His real hps becames 990.
As we can see the real hps is proportional to theoretical 900/1000=990/1100=0.9, so we can just dont use this 0.9 coefficient in the model and optimizing process (because results of optimizing will be the same).

Another example:
Another shaman has 1000 theorertical hps and 10% overheal. His real hps is 900.
He increases theoretical hps for +100 by adding +20%crits. Normal heals now are still for 2500 healing (crits for 3750), so he start healing when someone loose more than 2500hp (at least i wont wait for 3750), next heal lands to target and it is critical heal. As result almost half of heal go to overheal, so our overheal percentage inevitably grows.
Finally shaman has 1100 theoretical hps and 15%-20% overheal. His real hps is 880-935.
As we can see real hps arent propotional to the theoretical. So we must'nt reject this overheal percentage from the model and should use it when do our optimizing.

 

Skyhoof

No, I am not assuming a 2% proc rate. We are assuming the proc rate is 5%. The information on Wowhead seems to be correct. However, when I looked at some WWS the gem seemed to return 15-20 mp5 in a raid (3-4%), or an average of 17.5 mp5. This is probably due to the fact that we do stop casting at times in some fights.

That's how I look at it. Plus, if the crit occurs on the second or third jump of chain heal, the likelihood of overhealing decreases.

 

Daidalos

Boko while you are correct there are also plenty of times where you simply spam your max rank trying to get the most HPS. You are also assuming that everyone throws a 2700 heal exactly when the health defecit is 2700. Frequently I don't even look at health on most fights since I'm just spamming like crazy, however on those predictable enough to throw an exact rank for a particular amount I freuqntly under heal a little due to others throwing up heal and taking the chance that I might crit. If the fight was extremely predictable the tanks health would slowly decline until I either up ranked or got a crit and then it would start over.

I have never thought that HEP could substitute for a player understanding his class and his particular role. As such I feel we should not devalue crit because it can lead to overheal. I don't entirely disagree with your argument however there is no fixed amount we can devalue crit without being entirely arbitraty. If you build a crit heavy build you can also factor this into your heal values when throwing up heals. I really don't feel we should change crit due to overheal anymore than we should devalue haste due to mana consumption. Understand your class and know more than just HEP values and everyone should be fine.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Mandrachalos

Allright, misunderstood something then, thanks for clarifying.

 

Majera

It has been listed and generally accepted that the best in slot mace for a shaman is the Crystal Spire. It seemed to me that this was the case considering the proc and its synergy with chain heal.

However, with the need for haste in much of the new content (I have been running over 200 for some time) and that I believe 1 haste is worth 2.2 healing, wouldn't Dark Blessing be better than Crystal Spire?

I find that people in a raid are rarely ever under 50% health, but I do not have a Crystal Spire as of yet and I will be getting the next one. I would like to put some kind of equation behind the proc rate on Crystal Spire but it is really a situational proc.

Any insight into this? Do you see the proc often enough to say it is absolutely worth it rather than the flat haste?