How to Heal like a Pro - Page 42

Daidalos · 04/17/08, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Majera

It has been listed and generally accepted that the best in slot mace for a shaman is the Crystal Spire. It seemed to me that this was the case considering the proc and its synergy with chain heal.

However, with the need for haste in much of the new content (I have been running over 200 for some time) and that I believe 1 haste is worth 2.2 healing, wouldn't Dark Blessing be better than Crystal Spire?

I find that people in a raid are rarely ever under 50% health, but I do not have a Crystal Spire as of yet and I will be getting the next one. I would like to put some kind of equation behind the proc rate on Crystal Spire but it is really a situational proc.

Any insight into this? Do you see the proc often enough to say it is absolutely worth it rather than the flat haste?

I must say from experience that Spire is absolutely incredible. The number of procs I get is amazing. With chain heal intelligently seeking people with the lowest health. From my experience I'd say its by far the best weapon in game for us.

Bungmeister · 04/17/08, 4:04 PM

I'd vote on Crystal Spire being better. Looking at our WWS, I got 49 procs in 5 minutes on the Eredar Twins.

Assuming *ideal* situations, I think I get 2.23 CH cast times with 190 haste (what I was wearing). That's 134.5 casts in 5 minutes assuming perfect casting with 0 latency.

With Dark Blessing, I would have 220 haste which equates to 2.19 cast times and around 136.9 total Chain Heal casts.

Round both down, and the difference in 5 minutes is 2 CH casts with perfect latency which never happens. So in that regard, I'd easily take the Crystal Spire over Dark Blessing. If you're downing Illidan, you can get plenty of haste in all the other spots. The Crystal Spire proc is pretty darn amazing.

galzohar · 04/17/08, 4:53 PM

Why would you value 1 haste as 2.2 healing though? If 1 haste gives the same HPS as 2.2 healing then obviously 2.2 healing is much much better as it increases HPM while giving the same HPS.

Daidalos · 04/17/08, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Why would you value 1 haste as 2.2 healing though? If 1 haste gives the same HPS as 2.2 healing then obviously 2.2 healing is much much better as it increases HPM while giving the same HPS.

While haste does increase m/s, it also reduces total time between casts making you more effective in many situations. I feel this offsets any loss in mana and in many cases far exceeds its "pure" hps benefit.

I am in complete agreement for Sky's weights for a full hyjal+bt / SW shaman. Looking at full sunwell it doesn't seem that stat weights will change much either. I think the stats are with a spirest though so if you don't you may reduce haste a little and increase mp5. If other people doing sunwell without a spirest can offer any input its welcome.

Skyhoof · 04/17/08, 5:55 PM

Here’s the healing Daidalos did on Brutallus. I chose him because I know he has the Spire.

Ability	Total	Hits	Avg	Max	Crits%	Max	Overheal%
Chain Heal	889 417	283	2497	4250	14 %	6215	35 %
Heal	12 087	49	202	262	12%	373	0 %

The mace procced on 17% of his heals and boosted his overall healing in this fight by 1.3%. Also note, that the proc resulted in 0% overhealing. Brutallus is probably the mace at peak performance due to the large amount of raid-wide damage. The twins might give us the only better example.

If I had 2000 +healing and wanted to boost my Chain Heal Rank 4 by 1.3%, I would need an additional +40 healing.

Spire (proc valued at +40 healing) 552 HEP
Spire (no proc) 512 HEP
Dark Blessing 505 HEP
Gavel of Naaru Blessings 498 HEP

Vanderstar · 04/17/08, 5:55 PM

As someone who is almost never in a group with a shadow priest (I'm usually in the tank group) - I believe that Sky's new weights are pretty close to perfect. I looked over lootrank with those weights (New T6 Weights Lootrank), and the only item I am not completely sold on being correct is the gloves (The sun-drenched come ahead of the botanist's due to stam/int, which I'm not actively looking for anymore, but that's more a personal choice than a problem with the weights).

galzohar · 04/17/08, 6:01 PM

Not to mention that since the proc never overhealed, it's actually worth more than 40 +healing, since 40 +healing would still be partially overhealing unlike the proc.

And for burst situations where someone is going to die and needs that heal now, the mace proc is effectively increasing your heal size by 180-220, so for burst it adds the amount of +healing required to increase your heal size by that amount. Not in 100% of the possible cases where burst is needed, but most situations I can think of when you need max burst your target will be under 50% HP, as if it isn't it probably doesn't need your max burst anyway (again not a 100% rule but generally is what happens).

Daidalos · 04/17/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Here’s the healing Daidalos did on Brutallus. I chose him because I know he has the Spire.

Ability	Total	Hits	Avg	Max	Crits%	Max	Overheal%
Chain Heal	889 417	283	2497	4250	14 %	6215	35 %
Heal	12 087	49	202	262	12%	373	0 %

The mace procced on 17% of his heals and boosted his overall healing in this fight by 1.3%. Also note, that the proc resulted in 0% overhealing. Brutallus is probably the mace at peak performance due to the large amount of raid-wide damage. The twins might give us the only better example.

If I had 2000 +healing and wanted to boost my Chain Heal Rank 4 by 1.3%, I would need an additional +40 healing.

Spire (proc valued at +40 healing) 552 HEP
Spire (no proc) 512 HEP
Dark Blessing 505 HEP
Gavel of Naaru Blessings 498 HEP

There is no way anything is comparable pre-sunwell. So lets look at the best MH from sunwell.
Spire vs Gavel (stats wise the best in game)

[Archon's Gavel]
I wouldn't consider Brutalis an ideal fight since I am actually spamming the MT with chains and he shouldn't be under 50% too often. So in a pure raid healing situation it could be even higher.
+25 Intellect
+24 Stamina
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: 1 Mana per 5 sec.
Equip: Increases healing done by up to 500 and damage done by up to 167 for all magical spells and effects.
Equip: Restores 10 mana per 5 sec.

25int * (.75) = 18.75
24stam*(.3) = 7.2
22 healing gem = 22
1mp5 *1.3 = 1.3
500healing= 500
10mp5 *1.3
total = 562

Stats wise gavel is quite amazing but with spire putting the extra healing when I need it most I don't think I'll ever use gavel. Also another nice things about Spire is the proc doesn't suffer from downranking penalty so you get an additional 200 heal even on a rank 1 HW which costs 0 mana with ssc relic.

Perhaps in an average case Archon's is superior to Spire however when I need HPS the most (lots of ppl close to death) Spire far outshines anything else around. So alot more healing when I need it the most better than more healing when I don't need it as much and less when I don't imo. Also the thought of having huge amounts of haste and getting a chain heal off every1.7s hitting 3 targets or so with the Spire proc makes me giddy.

jaredh · 04/17/08, 6:39 PM

Thanks for all the effort you put forth Skyhoof

Just a point of surpise to me that the [Wristguards of Tranquil Thought] jump up in value with the new T6 weights. For entry-mid level T6 content these seem alot better than their mail counterpart considering how effective I'm seeing haste be simply with a 140ish rating.

The new weights also do wonders for the Vindicator's as well.

Majera · 04/17/08, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bungmeister

I'd vote on Crystal Spire being better. Looking at our WWS, I got 49 procs in 5 minutes on the Eredar Twins.

Assuming *ideal* situations, I think I get 2.23 CH cast times with 190 haste (what I was wearing). That's 134.5 casts in 5 minutes assuming perfect casting with 0 latency.

With Dark Blessing, I would have 220 haste which equates to 2.19 cast times and around 136.9 total Chain Heal casts.

Round both down, and the difference in 5 minutes is 2 CH casts with perfect latency which never happens. So in that regard, I'd easily take the Crystal Spire over Dark Blessing. If you're downing Illidan, you can get plenty of haste in all the other spots. The Crystal Spire proc is pretty darn amazing.

I currently run just under 300 haste and have CH down to 2.17ish. I have always been of the opinion that the Crystal Spire was better but wanted to put out the idea here as far as comparison and see what the thought was. I do have access to a lot of different gear and there is a lot of other slots to find haste plus the new gem.

When I brought up the point that most of our raid was not sub 50% there were two fights that immediately came to mind, Brutallus and the Twins (working on them still). It is nice to see that the proc never overhealed because some of the priests/paladins in our guild were saying that it does that a lot.

Naturally I wanted to bring the question here and thanks for answering it which confirmed what I previously thought.

Raputo · 04/18/08, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

You can also modify SCT to give an audible alert using these instructions:

I'd like to share this little line of code that is inserted into 'interface\addons\sct\sct_event_config.lua'
Inside the file there is a line local sct_Event_Config = { Next to that is a custom events list. I replaced 'lightning shield' event since it's usefulness is none to me. The file itself contains pretty clear explanations and examples for custom events so feel free to modify. It gives you warning when Water Shield fades. test.wav is your own to pick.

CREDIT: Flopi

First off, amazing thread, thanks all around.

Secondly, a quick update to the first post: I believe the exact text inside the SCT modification (mentioned in the quote above) has changed. I currently use:

[3] = {display="Water Shield Faded!!!", type="FADESELF", search="Water Shield", icon=1, r=256/256, g=128/256, b=128/256, iscrit=1, soundwave="Interface\\AddOns\\sct\\sound.wav", class={"Shaman"}},

It is now "display" instead of "name".

Bokomatic · 04/19/08, 4:00 AM

I have one more principal question, mates =)

What kind of HEP do you use in this thread?
I've downloaded shamstats110208.xls by Binkenstein and i tried to understand what his HEP means.
If you use this HEP i'll ask more about

Could you suggest me what to download if you use another HEP in this thread.

Mandrachalos · 04/19/08, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Gemming
Now that we have some solid HEP values (I hope anyway) let’s take a look at gemming our best-in-slot items again.

[Teardrop Crimson Spinel] x 4 + [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] = 88 healing + 26 healing = 114 healing = 114 HEP

[Quick Lionseye] x 2 + [Royal Shadowsong Amethyst] x 2+ [Insightful Earthstorm Diamond] = 20 spell haste + 22 healing + 4 mp5 + 17.5 mp5 + 4 mp5 (socket bonuses) + 7 healing (shoulder socket bonus) + 12 Intellect
= 20 spell haste + 29 healing + 25.5 mp5 +12 Intellect
= 40 + 22 + 5.2 +22.75 + 5.2 +7 + 9= 111.15 HEP

[Forceful Seaspray Emerald] x 2 + [Teardrop Crimson Spinel]x 2 + [Insightful Earthstorm Diamond]=+10 Haste and +4 mp5 + 17.5 mp5 +44 healing + 12 Intellect
= 20 + 5.2 + 22.75 +44 + 9 = 100.95

So, using all Spinels (except perhaps for the helm with the yellow slot) seems to maximize healing. However, there's a strong argument to be made for gemming with 2 Quick Lionseyes and 2 Royal Shadowsong Amethysts. By using the yellow and purple gems, you lose 85 healing but gain 20 spell haste and 25.5 mp5 and 12 Intellect. And given that there’s no cooldown on the IED and spell haste will increase the number of spells cast, a good argument could be made to gem in this manner.

What about the changed [Mystical Skyfire Diamond]?
Any ideas if it is any good especially compared to these mentioned two alternatives?

Mekias · 04/19/08, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Here are the revised Tier 6 HEP values. I adjusted healing to equal 1.0

	New	Old
Stam	0.30	0.30
Int	0.75	0.42
Spirit	0.00	0.1
Heal	1.00	1.00
Crit	0.80	0.38
mp5	1.3	2.31
Haste	2.00	1.54
Armor	0.01	0.01

Could you specify whether this is with a shadow priest or not? Because if I used this HEP valuation, I wouldn't have much, if any, MP5. The 2-piece tier 6 bonus is good but it won't help me last through a Sunwell fight on it's own.

Also, it was mentioned here that, for HPS purposes, 2.2 heal = 1 haste. 2.2 heal = 2.2 HEP. 1 haste = 2 HEP. According to this, the mana efficiency you gain from 2.2 +heal is worth 0.2 HEP, or 0.09 HEP per 1 heal. To me that's saying that mana efficiency isn't worth much.

Like I said, these valuations are perfectly fine with a shadow priest but I wouldn't be able to last through a healing intensive fight if I geared like this.

galzohar · 04/19/08, 8:51 AM

I have to agree these HEP values seem extremely biased towards a situation where you mostly care about burst HPS and hardly care at all about your mana efficiency, which may often be the case, but definitely far from always.

Kint · 04/19/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Mekias

Could you specify whether this is with a shadow priest or not? Because if I used this HEP valuation, I wouldn't have much, if any, MP5. The 2-piece tier 6 bonus is good but it won't help me last through a Sunwell fight on it's own.

Also, it was mentioned here that, for HPS purposes, 2.2 heal = 1 haste. 2.2 heal = 2.2 HEP. 1 haste = 2 HEP. According to this, the mana efficiency you gain from 2.2 +heal is worth 0.2 HEP, or 0.09 HEP per 1 heal. To me that's saying that mana efficiency isn't worth much.

Like I said, these valuations are perfectly fine with a shadow priest but I wouldn't be able to last through a healing intensive fight if I geared like this.

Yes you would. Sunwell is broken for water shield. Mana issues can always be made up with consumables. What fight are you concerned about OOMing on, even without a Spriest?

Mekias · 04/19/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kint

Yes you would. Sunwell is broken for water shield. Mana issues can always be made up with consumables. What fight are you concerned about OOMing on, even without a Spriest?

I don't think water shield proc'ing a lot for certain fights makes MP5 worthless. And just because they haven't addressed the water shield for those fights doesn't mean they won't.

As for consumables, a mana potion is only an average of 2400 mana every 2 minutes. That's not very much. According to this HEP table, an Elixir of Healing Power (50 HEP) is far more useful than a Flask of Mighty Restoration (32.5 HEP) so you'd never want to use MP5 consumables.

I'm not saying that I can't get by on fights by chain potting but I have a decent amount of MP5 as well (152). What I'm saying is that an HEP value of 1.3 would basically mean ignoring MP5 on gear.

Stat           StatMod         HEP          HEP/SM
Stam            .667            .3            .45
Int               1             .75           .75
Crit              1             .8            .8
Haste             1             2             2
Heal            .455            1             2.2
MP5              2.5            1.3           .52

*Note - I couldn't find Haste or Crit's StatMod so I guessed.

When looking at the stat cost on an item, MP5 comes out as far worse than any other healing stat and just barely above stamina's value.

• Binkenstein · 04/19/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mandrachalos

What about the changed [Mystical Skyfire Diamond]?
Any ideas if it is any good especially compared to these mentioned two alternatives?

I think there were some points made about dependability vs chance procs. It's like spell crit. Sure, it's nice to have, and it has some advantages to it, but it isn't reliable. Bracing is a constant value, while the Insightful proc is only wasted if you have 100% mana.

Originally Posted by Mekias

Could you specify whether this is with a shadow priest or not? Because if I used this HEP valuation, I wouldn't have much, if any, MP5. The 2-piece tier 6 bonus is good but it won't help me last through a Sunwell fight on it's own

I would have to say that in the current gearing/raiding environment, if the regen you gain from gear (180mp5 would be an example from a guildie), buffs (50 from WS, 62 from Mana Spring, 25 from a flask), and consumables (~100 for a chain chugged mana pot) isn't enough for a fight, you'll probably be given a shadow priest anyway (that's roughly 430mp5, ignoring mana tide, spellsurge, WS charges or Alchy stones), or should manage your spell use a bit more carefully.

Originally Posted by Kint

Yes you would. Sunwell is broken for water shield. Mana issues can always be made up with consumables. What fight are you concerned about OOMing on, even without a Spriest?

How exactly is it broken? I haven't had any problems with it so far.

Kint · 04/19/08, 4:10 PM

Broken as in, there is so much to proc it, not bugged. And I'd like to see you eliminate all MP/5 from your gear with the itemization in the game (gonna give you a hint you can't). You can't make these choices, so worrying about them is silly.

I personally think MSD is bad because of the gem requirements, not the randomness of the proc. The proc itself is quite good, but you limit the amount of haste gems and spinels you can use to meet the requirements.

Solia · 04/19/08, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I have to agree these HEP values seem extremely biased towards a situation where you mostly care about burst HPS and hardly care at all about your mana efficiency, which may often be the case, but definitely far from always.

Find a fight in Sunwell where mana is an issue. Like Kint said, it's pretty hard to go oom in Sunwell. I can wear ~350 spell haste and less than 180mp5 (WITH watershield)and NOT have a shadowpriest and never go oom. Everything procs water shield, the hardest part is finding the time to renew it. Even without it, a mana pot will easily get you through most fights. Don't be cheap and mana won't matter.

I can only really think of one fight, maybe two, in all of Black temple where I ever worry about mana at all. There is a reason the values move away from mp5. If you're having mana issues on most fights, you're doing something wrong.

Bungmeister · 04/19/08, 5:02 PM

Are you varying your heal ranks enough Mekias? I usually don't get the spriest until the Eredar Twins, and I can make it through everything. I think the key is to make sure you're using a very low "spamming" rank normally and swap to higher ranks depending on situations. (tank switches or stomps or late ticks of boundless agony and no mage in sight etc etc etc)

Put it another way. Assuming a benchmark of 6 minutes for Sunwell encounters (Brutallus/Twins being the benchmark), would 50 more MP5 make a difference? That's 3600 mana or approximately 5-9 chain heals depending on the rank you're using. If that's the case, I'd argue to drink a Fel-Mana potion 10-20 seconds into the fight and or to start with high ranks to burn mana and use your manatide early so you can get a 2nd one in at the end.

Edit: And what the others said. Water shield procs so freaking much it's crazy in Sunwell.

Mekias · 04/19/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bungmeister

Are you varying your heal ranks enough Mekias? I usually don't get the spriest until the Eredar Twins, and I can make it through everything. I think the key is to make sure you're using a very low "spamming" rank normally and swap to higher ranks depending on situations. (tank switches or stomps or late ticks of boundless agony and no mage in sight etc etc etc)

Put it another way. Assuming a benchmark of 6 minutes for Sunwell encounters (Brutallus/Twins being the benchmark), would 50 more MP5 make a difference? That's 3600 mana or approximately 5-9 chain heals depending on the rank you're using. If that's the case, I'd argue to drink a Fel-Mana potion 10-20 seconds into the fight and or to start with high ranks to burn mana and use your manatide early so you can get a 2nd one in at the end.

Edit: And what the others said. Water shield procs so freaking much it's crazy in Sunwell.

Like I said, I can get by on mana-intensive fights by chain mana potting and downranking but some of it is because I try to keep my MP5 above 140. There have been times where I was hanging around 1-2k mana and just hoping that I could survive until the next mana pot. Last time was on Illidari Council last week. I was assigned to the priestess tank to heal and interrupt. Several of our healers and dps died and those of us left barely had mana to keep people alive. No doubt in my mind that it would have been a wipe if I had less MP5.

You can say, "tell your raid to learn to avoid aoe damage". I agree but I can't play for them.

Maybe the value of MP5 should be on a sliding scale. More valuable if your MP5 is less than 120, less valuable above. Personally, that's how I value MP5 (but I use a 140 benchmark). If it gets too low, I try not to lose any more. If it's too high, I try to make more HPS-type gear choices. I just wanted to mainly point out that MP5 has a value in tier 6 content.

Bungmeister · 04/19/08, 5:37 PM

It's hard not to have MP5 though. I'd argue the average shaman doing T6, and not wearing vengeful gladiator, would have around 140 mp5 fairly effortlessly.

For instance, looking at your current armory, I see 15mp5 from following socket bonus's and purple gems. Assuming you gem'ed for +healing instead (pure spinels, and realistically speaking, I don't think any of us did that whether it's by choice or lack of spinels in the guild bank), you'd lose that 15mp5. Now assuming your Council fight was 8 minutes and things went south at the 4 minute mark, (I pulled that out of my mind, I realize a lot of us do it faster than that and some slower) your 15 MP5 is worth 15*12*4=720 additional mana. That's not even 2 chain heals.

I'd venture to say you guys surivived because your healers were conscious of the situation, and smartly adjusted your healing ranks/patterns to the situation and got you through. Not because you had an extra 1.5 chain heals. (or HW or whatever)

I mean the extra 15 mana you got from a tick might have gotten you *exactly* enough mana to cast a desperation heal at a critical conjecture.....but I'd really think that was good healing by your group and not some lucky 15 mana tick.

Skyhoof · 04/19/08, 6:02 PM

Yes, the best in slot items have a lot of haste and spam casting would not be sustainable without a shadow priest. Depending on raid buffs and consumables, you would most likely run out of mana before 3 minutes spamming Chain Heal Rank 4 -- even if you chain chugged mana pots. A shadow priest could allow you to spam cast Rank 4 for 7 minutes or more.

I'll try to work up some Tier 6 HEP values that are not dependent upon a shadow priest in the next week or two.

Mekias · 04/19/08, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Bungmeister

It's hard not to have MP5 though. I'd argue the average shaman doing T6, and not wearing vengeful gladiator, would have around 140 mp5 fairly effortlessly.

For instance, looking at your current armory, I see 15mp5 from following socket bonus's and purple gems. Assuming you gem'ed for +healing instead (pure spinels, and realistically speaking, I don't think any of us did that whether it's by choice or lack of spinels in the guild bank), you'd lose that 15mp5. Now assuming your Council fight was 8 minutes and things went south at the 4 minute mark, (I pulled that out of my mind, I realize a lot of us do it faster than that and some slower) your 15 MP5 is worth 15*12*4=720 additional mana. That's not even 2 chain heals.

I'd venture to say you guys surivived because your healers were conscious of the situation, and smartly adjusted your healing ranks/patterns to the situation and got you through. Not because you had an extra 1.5 chain heals. (or HW or whatever)

I mean the extra 15 mana you got from a tick might have gotten you *exactly* enough mana to cast a desperation heal at a critical conjecture.....but I'd really think that was good healing by your group and not some lucky 15 mana tick.

Yeah, spinels haven't been opened to healers yet so I make do until the gem vendor opens up.

Here's the WWS of the Council Fight:

Wow Web Stats

It lasted almost 12 minutes and only 11 of us were left at the end. I also had to use a ton of Healing Waves due to being the only priestess tank healer and the rest of the raid being spread out. I probably should have used more downranking on the Healing Waves but we were barely keeping up as it was.