How to Heal like a Pro - Page 44

Raut · 02/28/08, 4:08 AM

It is the best trinket in-game(if it goes live and Blizz doesn't suddenly create some useful trinkets). We have never seen [Memento of Tyrande] drop after over three months of farming Illidan and I'm certainly not first in line for the first one that does.

I've been thinking of dropping alch, just because it's pretty boring. This changes that.

Grash · 02/28/08, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

First, I have to question if you actually read the main post.

It’s not ideal. However, it’s fairly easy for a shaman to get 7.5k health unbuffed.

Your shield currently has no enchant so if you are concerned about hp put +18 stamina on it.
Your boots currently have the Vitality enchant. Use Boar’s speed with its +9 stamina and run speed boost.

Those changes alone would increase your health by 270.

Also, you have a very nice neck and ring. Unfortunately, one reason they are so good for healing is that they lack stamina. There are many alternatives available with stamina. Use them on encounters where you need more hit points.

And please read the section on gem choices. Some of your choices make my eyes water.

Thanks, Skyhoof.

Yes, ive read main post. The problem is i am now have the 7.5k hp unbuffed. So, as you can see, if i will start to lowering my hp i will not be in range you've posted. But i think you right with the shield. Stamina enchant on it should help abit. About Vitality... i am not sure i am viable to change it to Boar's Speed. I dont have personal SP in raid, so the mana regen is very important for me.

About gems... this is money problem

I know that gems are complete mess.

Anyway, thanks for help. I think i just will use somepvp items for tough fights.

Fodla · 02/28/08, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Grash

Thanks, Skyhoof.

Yes, ive read main post. The problem is i am now have the 7.5k hp unbuffed. So, as you can see, if i will start to lowering my hp i will not be in range you've posted. But i think you right with the shield. Stamina enchant on it should help abit. About Vitality... i am not sure i am viable to change it to Boar's Speed. I dont have personal SP in raid, so the mana regen is very important for me.

About gems... this is money problem

I know that gems are complete mess.

Anyway, thanks for help. I think i just will use somepvp items for tough fights.

Take 2 shields. One with stamina on, one with int. Swap them if you are getting beat on too much.
PvP neck is very good.
4mp5 from Vitality is hardly worth worrying about even without a Shadow Priest. 480 mana returned over a 10 minute fight. Just downrank to CH4. 5 of those will save you that 480 mana.

Kremlin · 02/28/08, 10:21 AM

I really hope that trinket doesn't get nerfed. Would love to see the theorycrafting on it

Vistol · 02/28/08, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Grash

Thanks, Skyhoof.

Yes, ive read main post. ....

About gems... this is money problem

I know that gems are complete mess.

Anyway, thanks for help. I think i just will use somepvp items for tough fights.

Well i don't mean to be a jerk, but i think Grash has had enough help with his gear. The last thing we need is a constant stream of people coming here asking us to rate their gear/spec. Good luck Grash, listen to Skyhoof.

Fodla · 02/28/08, 10:57 AM

Is +6mp5 better than +6stats for chest:
Consider T5+ raid buffed stats.
Approx.
+Heal - 2200
MP5 whilst casting 300
Spell crit - 10% (not including 5% from talents)
Mana - 13000

Without a shadow priest you'd be able to spam CH5 for approx 92s before going OOM.(with totem of living water)

6mp5 would not change that as you'd only gain 110 mana back in that time. Not enough for another CH5 cast.

Add 6.6 intellect (BoK)
Spell crit 10.08 %
+Heal 2202.2
Mana 13099

You'd still last 92s, however, the HPM would increase by 0.01 and approx 1hps better. (this with a 100/50/10 hit split)Doesn't sound alot, but for me, i don't miss the mp5 and would rather have the extra stats.

Would this improve over a 10 minute fight? The extra heal and crit directly affects the amount of healing done and if you get a shadow priest there is not even a need to worry about that mp5 loss.

Anyway, i'm just putting it out there that +6 stats is a raid viable enchant.
Thoughts please.

(disclaimer: spreadsheet calculations for rank spamming which i could write out if really needed. fairly sure it's about right though)

Vanquish · 02/28/08, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by vorda

That still has one of the problems some (or most, no idea) paladins have with gearing/gemming for crit. Is it wise to rely on a dice roll to keep people alive? Because if your heal doesnt crit and they are in no danger of dying, having it crit wont change that fact. On the other side, when they do need HP quickly, crit is still unreliable and they might still die.

I'd recommend strolling over to the Healadin topic to read some thoughts on the pure healing effectiveness of spell crit rating. (while not directly aplied to Chain heal, the same goes there. 3pc t2 is a reliable bonus you know you will have, much like +heal)

That was kindof the point i was trying to get to, ie at what point will the crit from one jump of chain heal be a near certainty. Comparing crit betweens FoL and chain heal is not really viable. For every cast there are 3 individual chances to crit, and therefore the value of crit when applied to chain heal would be much greater than FoL would it not?

What I am looking for is X amount of crit, when applied to chain heal will result in y percentage of crits per chain heal cast, with a hope that at some point the value of Y will equal 1. I'm immediatly thinking around 30% but i have a feeling it will be lower than this ( and that would not be a realistic amount to build into resto set)

I understand 3xT2 will give a greater benefit, unfortunatly this char only became my main in TBC, and the chances of returning to BWL enough times to gain the 3 pieces are beyond slim. Hence the investigation into crit as a viable alternative to pimp CH.

Vanquish · 02/28/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Fodla

Is +6mp5 better than +6stats for chest:
Consider T5+ raid buffed stats.
Approx.
+Heal - 2200
MP5 whilst casting 300
Spell crit - 10% (not including 5% from talents)
Mana - 13000

Without a shadow priest you'd be able to spam CH5 for approx 92s before going OOM.(with totem of living water)

6mp5 would not change that as you'd only gain 110 mana back in that time. Not enough for another CH5 cast.

Add 6.6 intellect (BoK)
Spell crit 10.08 %
+Heal 2202.2
Mana 13099

You'd still last 92s, however, the HPM would increase by 0.01 and approx 1hps better. Doesn't sound alot, but for me, i don't miss the mp5 and would rather have the extra stats.

Would this improve over a 10 minute fight? The extra heal and crit directly affects the amount of healing done and if you get a shadow priest there is not even a need to worry about that mp5 loss.

Anyway, i'm just putting it out there that +6 stats is a raid viable enchant.
Thoughts please.

(disclaimer: spreadsheet calculations for rank spamming which i could write out if really needed. fairly sure it's about right though)

There's a phrase i'm fond of, 'Over Engineering' Based on your current gear levels neither 6mp5 or 6 stats would make a huge difference to your performance. So this, in my opinion, is more of a personal choice. Benefits of 6 stats, obviously sta and int, none of the other stats are relevant.

So the choice is between 60 HP and 90 mana and + 2 heals or 6 mp5. Worst case scenario you get put in a tank grp, or have no SP you'd benefit from the MP5 more. There's potential to gem around this too and maybe switch out some royal gems for + heals. (i have'nt checked your armoury i doubt you need gear advice

)

Vistol · 02/28/08, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Vanquish

That was kindof the point i was trying to get to, ie at what point will the crit from one jump of chain heal be a near certainty. Comparing crit betweens FoL and chain heal is not really viable. For every cast there are 3 individual chances to crit, and therefore the value of crit when applied to chain heal would be much greater than FoL would it not?

What I am looking for is X amount of crit, when applied to chain heal will result in y percentage of crits per chain heal cast, with a hope that at some point the value of Y will equal 1. I'm immediatly thinking around 30% but i have a feeling it will be lower than this ( and that would not be a realistic amount to build into resto set)

I understand 3xT2 will give a greater benefit, unfortunatly this char only became my main in TBC, and the chances of returning to BWL enough times to gain the 3 pieces are beyond slim. Hence the investigation into crit as a viable alternative to pimp CH.

P of at least one jump criting = 1-(1-spell crit)^3 .... assuming 3 jumps and that each is a discreet event (which to be honest i don't know for sure).

You will never be sure of a crit with anything less than 100% but you can get above 90% at 55% crit. Assuming each jump has a chance to proc.

Vistol · 02/28/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Fodla

Is +6mp5 better than +6stats for chest:

Anyway, i'm just putting it out there that +6 stats is a raid viable enchant.
Thoughts please.

(disclaimer: spreadsheet calculations for rank spamming which i could write out if really needed. fairly sure it's about right though)

Short answer no, i don't think it's even close.

You are using a metric to compare the two that in no way represents actual combat. You are determining the value of the stats under a very specific set of conditions, i.e. maximizing the total amount healed by spamming rank 5 chain heal until oom. Under these conditions mp5 has almost no value and spell crit offers huge returns.

Now i believe that most people would agree that mp5 > crit, under most normal circumstances. However, the fact is stat weights are dynamic depending on the encounter, and your role in it. Shorter encounters favor haste and int, where as longer fights favor mp5 (healing is always good).

While it is possible conditions exsist where +6 stats is better i would say the majority of the time 6mp5 is much better, but hey I'm all for having multiple sets of gear and switching out pieces depending on the fight.

Just my 2 coppers.

galzohar · 02/28/08, 4:02 PM

Your calculations also assume the fight is over when you go oom, on top of the other issues they have that had already been mentioned in the above posts.

Karede · 02/28/08, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Raut

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...hemystones.jpg

Daddy RUAT wants one for Sunwell.

For those that don't know the math: Chain-potting SMP is 100 mp5. Having the Stone is an added 40 mp5. So with the baby above and pots, it's better than MoT.

Now with those, you give guild a good reason to go back to do some T5 instances before 2.4 comes out. Those are gorgeous, ESPECIALLY the caster ones. Simply WOW.

Fodla · 02/28/08, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Vistol

Short answer no, i don't think it's even close.

You are using a metric to compare the two that in no way represents actual combat. You are determining the value of the stats under a very specific set of conditions, i.e. maximizing the total amount healed by spamming rank 5 chain heal until oom. Under these conditions mp5 has almost no value and spell crit offers huge returns.

Now i believe that most people would agree that mp5 > crit, under most normal circumstances. However, the fact is stat weights are dynamic depending on the encounter, and your role in it. Shorter encounters favor haste and int, where as longer fights favor mp5 (healing is always good).

While it is possible conditions exsist where +6 stats is better i would say the majority of the time 6mp5 is much better, but hey I'm all for having multiple sets of gear and switching out pieces depending on the fight.

Just my 2 coppers.

Whilst i'd say it is specific, this also scales if you just 'up' the mp5 to cater for a 10 minute fight. i.e. it's something like 882mp5 needed to spam CH5 for 10 minutes. The benefit is actually greater in that instance for +6stats over mp5 on HPS, the difference being something like being able to heal for an extra 38 seconds, but still not actually putting out any more healing in total over those 38s.
Again, it's not 'real' world per se, but would kind of mirrors having a Shadow Priest, chugging mana pots etc.

In a looong fight, the mp5 may edge it, but even in a 10 minute fight, you'd only regain 720 mana.
Whilst on a point for point basis, mp5 > crit, i think once you get to a certain point, then the extra crit gained will increase the healing output over the course of the fight. Most fights are between 3 and 7 minutes so MP5 is wasted above a certain threshold (which would be a nice calculation to do)

Try it and see is all i can say

Ashen · 02/28/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Karede

Now with those, you give guild a good reason to go back to do some T5 instances before 2.4 comes out. Those are gorgeous, ESPECIALLY the caster ones. Simply WOW.

Nah. No need. Vortexes are on Badge Rewards come 2.4 so you just need to prepare ahead of time. The vendor for the recipe, however, is another story entirely. The wait time on that should be interesting. And I guess it wasn't ever confirmed, but are all operating under the assumption that Vashj and Kael drop essences? If so, then that's probably the only real reason to revisit T5 at all.

Vanquish · 02/28/08, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Vistol

P of at least one jump criting = 1-(1-spell crit)^3 .... assuming 3 jumps and that each is a discreet event (which to be honest i don't know for sure).

You will never be sure of a crit with anything less than 100% but you can get above 90% at 55% crit. Assuming each jump has a chance to proc.

That seems too high, remember each jump has a chance to proc, yet the crit value can only realistically be applied to the initial cast. By that i mean in simplistic terms that 100% crit/ 3 jumps would be an average of 34% crit from stats to achieve one crit per cast. (i am far from a maths genius, so forgive my over simplification)

How does crit scale in terms of HPS? and is it a viable stat to be focusing on when mp5 is at an optimum level?

I'm currently trying to build in as much crit as possibly, while retaining as much mp5/heals as possible. This will affect gear choices quite dramatically taking into account gem sockets, and balancing of Mp5.

I guess ideally i'd like someone to calculate a weight for crit as a stat in terms of how it increases hps on average, and how much crit will equal a certain increase in hps over time. (only in relation to chain heal)

I know alot is down to personal taste, but coming from a dps background pre tbc, it seems spell crit is underrated for shaman, when we have the ideal spell to take advantage of the stat.