How to Heal like a Pro - Page 47

fauxpas · 05/03/08, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Then I'd remove some of the many many red gems you have, and use some quick lionseyes or forceful seaspray emeralds.

Maybe I'll do that sometime but when i chose that meta I only had to replace 2 gems, both of which were blue (well, one was from a heroic instance, but anyways)

But still i think that the part I mentioned should be altered. A manareg proc can be wasted just like a haste proc can be.

Daidalos · 05/03/08, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Aejin

Maybe we should testing using the new S4 Mace "Brutal Gladiator's Swift Judgement"

Stats are:
Main Hand
Mace
Classes: Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Druid
38 Stamina
25 Intellect
Improves your Resilience rating by 21
Improves your spell haste rating by 227

using this with a Spellhaste Socket Shield make Spellhaste push about 15% then switching to +Heal Mace in Castime.
Awesome if this works.

Well can´t await S4 then. Only one hard thing is ... you need personal rating of 2050 to get this baby.

OK I can see everyone is thinking they have some clever way of macro swapping to take advantage of both weapons. Lets put a stop to this right now. Yes you can start casting with a haste weapon equipped and then switch to a +heal weapon to gain the effect at the end of the cast. This however lasts a whopping one cast. At the end if you cast again if are left with starting out with your +heal weapon or wasting a GCD switching weapons. So there is no point to further discussions on this.

Skyhoof · 05/03/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

OK I can see everyone is thinking they have some clever way of macro swapping to take advantage of both weapons. Lets put a stop to this right now. Yes you can start casting with a haste weapon equipped and then switch to a +heal weapon to gain the effect at the end of the cast. This however lasts a whopping one cast. At the end if you cast again if are left with starting out with your +heal weapon or wasting a GCD switching weapons. So there is no point to further discussions on this.

Yes, Daidalos is correct. The GCD will make trying to constantly switch weapons pointless. However, the haste could be useful for portions of fights, or just on trash -- if you have the personal rating to buy it.

Kurone · 05/04/08, 3:28 PM

After the buff spell haste received in patch 2.4, I am considering gemming for spell haste in my gear. I am in 4/8 T6 with only the pieces from Black Temple and I do not wear the pants, I use the Sun Touched Leggings off Hyjal.

If I were to socket for spell haste I'd gain 50 spell haste in exchange for 33 healing, 25 int and 4 mp5.

Is it worth it?

Should I start putting 10 spell haste gems in my yellow sockets from now on?

At what amount of spell haste should I stop at? What is the cap on Spell haste?

Raputo · 05/04/08, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kurone

After the buff spell haste received in patch 2.4, I am considering gemming for spell haste in my gear. I am in 4/8 T6 with only the pieces from Black Temple and I do not wear the pants, I use the Sun Touched Leggings off Hyjal.

If I were to socket for spell haste I'd gain 50 spell haste in exchange for 33 healing, 25 int and 4 mp5.

Is it worth it?

Should I start putting 10 spell haste gems in my yellow sockets from now on?

At what amount of spell haste should I stop at? What is the cap on Spell haste?

I will save Skyhoof (or someone else) the trouble of saying:

Please go back and re-read the first post. Your answers are there, as is the plea not to ask these kinds of questions. You just have to take a few seconds and actually look for them.

Kurone · 05/04/08, 4:56 PM

i dun see shit about spell haste

Vlydia · 05/04/08, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kurone

i dun see shit about spell haste

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t24796-s...n/#Spell_Haste - Spell Haste
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t24796-s..._evaluate_gear - Stat weights
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t24796-s..._and_Meta_Gems - Gemming

You really should read the whole thinktank.

Siggidzweie · 05/05/08, 4:01 AM

Hi,

just a few things for your Wiki:

- The best trinket-combination to pimp up your Earthshield is [Zandalarian Hero Charm] + [Eye of dead]
- To equip and trigger [Shattered Sun Pendant of Restoration] (only if your Aldor) and [Band of the eternal Restorer] in combination with the activation of the upstanding or any other use-trinkets before casting your Earthshield would maximize the volume of your shield too

- If your gear offers you an certain amount of uptoheal and you don't have the amazing combination of [Memento of Tyrande] and [Redeemer's Alchimist Stone] it might be a good idea to equip [Battlemaster's Alacrity] to increase haste and give up a certain value of uptoheal in addition to the life-saving use-effect. Many shamans of the top-guilds already do so

Eury · 05/05/08, 10:03 PM

It is becoming clear to me the more I progress in Sunwell how increasingly important spell haste is.
To be able to heal more targets in shorter time is more important than just how much you can heal a target.
By setting the haste vs +healing ratio to 2.5:1 in Loot Rank quite a few interesting options opens up:
To start with +10 haste gems becomes better than +22 healing gems, teron gloves become the best gloves in the game and the +40 spell haste pvp trinket becomes very attractive.
Obviously stacking all this haste comes with a cost; the increased mana cost is pretty hefty due to not only will you lose a lot of mana regen you can't down rank in the same way you can when you stack +healing.

The mana cost can be made up though by chaining super mana / fel mana pots, dark runes and drums. Factor in also that water shield procs on pretty much everything in Sunwell spam healing with haste stacking should be sustainable in most fights in Sunwell.
Kil'Jaeden will probably be a 10´+ min fight though so you have to rely on a shadow priest there most likely.

Edit:
I just want to clarify regarding the ratio I picked that it was just an arbitrary number. The consensus in the thread seem to be based on a 2:1 ratio which I'm guessing is based on healing output during a set time.
However that doesn't factor in the added possibility to spread out the healing output more even over the raid which in many AoE heavy fights (read Sunwell fights) are very beneficial. It is of course very hard to do any math on so my ratio is only what I feel is about right. I think haste in general is kinda underrated though as long as you use full consumables.

Beta · 05/05/08, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Eury

I just want to clarify regarding the ratio I picked that it was just an arbitrary number. The consensus in the thread seem to be based on a 2:1 ratio which I'm guessing is based on healing output during a set time.
However that doesn't factor in the added possibility to spread out the healing output more even over the raid which in many AoE heavy fights (read Sunwell fights) are very beneficial. It is of course very hard to do any math on so my ratio is only what I feel is about right. I think haste in general is kinda underrated though as long as you use full consumables.

The more +heal you have the better haste is. For CH5 3 targets healing efficiency is 165% and with 2500 +heal would give haste rating HEP of 2.5 (+/-100 heal on gear is +/-0.1 HEP change). That's optimal case and goes down from there, so better go with calculated 2 HEP or 2.2 that Blizzard uses.

Raputo · 05/06/08, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Fixing [Totem of Living Water]. Unlike all the other relics, this one was being applied after talents and set bonuses. It will not be correctly applied before talents and set bonuses. So, instead of saving 19 mana per Chain Heal (17 mana with Tier 6) you will now save 20 mana.

This appears to be a common misconception. I am one of the unlucky few shaman who never got Maiden to drop the correct totem, so I'm using [Totem of Living Water]. I can confirm that the bloody thing is currently only saving me 19 mana (17 with 2t6). The item's functionality did not change in 2.4, only the description did! Notice that the totem now says "base" mana cost. Blizzard is simply reinforcing the fact that this totem only affects the raw mana cost of Chain Heal, not the modified cost.

All the more reason for me to grumble about not getting [Totem of Healing Rains]...

Habanero · 05/06/08, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Raputo

This appears to be a common misconception. I am one of the unlucky few shaman who never got Maiden to drop the correct totem, so I'm using [Totem of Living Water]. I can confirm that the bloody thing is currently only saving me 19 mana (17 with 2t6). The item's functionality did not change in 2.4, only the description did! Notice that the totem now says "base" mana cost. Blizzard is simply reinforcing the fact that this totem only affects the raw mana cost of Chain Heal, not the modified cost.

All the more reason for me to grumble about not getting [Totem of Healing Rains]...

Doesn't matter. In any situation where you can regem your mp5 to healing/haste you get twice the potential value from the badge one. I don't know why they are listed in reverse order of quality in the first few posts, but it is wrong.

[Totem of Healing Rains] = +87 heal
[Totem of Living Water] = very conservatively 20 mp5

By substituting 20 mp5 of gems for +healing, (20mp5 / 4mp5) * 22heal = +110 healing, a net difference of +23 healing, blowing away the Karazhan relic; that's with an extremely conservative estimate to boot. There may be situationally better uses for one or the other but in general the Karazhan one is rubbish.

Pitbuller · 05/06/08, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Habanero

Doesn't matter. In any situation where you can regem your mp5 to healing/haste you get twice the potential value from the badge one. I don't know why they are listed in reverse order of quality in the first few posts, but it is wrong.

[Totem of Healing Rains] = +87 heal
[Totem of Living Water] = very conservatively 20 mp5

By substituting 20 mp5 of gems for +healing, (20mp5 / 4mp5) * 22heal = +110 healing, a net difference of +23 healing, blowing away the Karazhan relic; that's with an extremely conservative estimate to boot. There may be situationally better uses for one or the other but in general the Karazhan one is rubbish.

[Totem of Healing Rains] +87heal = 87hep

[Totem of Living Water] = very conservatively 20 mp5 = 26hep

Use hep values.
Dont use blizzard stat cost.

Daidalos · 05/06/08, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

[Totem of Healing Rains] +87heal = 87hep

[Totem of Living Water] = very conservatively 20 mp5 = 26hep

Use hep values.
Dont use blizzard stat cost.

Unless you are in a situation where you know are you very likely to go oom, e.g. spamming CH 4 on brut without a spriest, I think the extra healing is much more useful. The amount of hps needed in sunwell is extremely high and 20-30mp5 gained in many cases woudn't be much help however since this is a relic and can be switched in after a cast is started I have been thining of picking it up for those situations where you might need the regen. Personally I think just gemming for +heal and pot and switch relics as needed gives the most vesatility.

Habanero · 05/06/08, 12:29 PM

I play a Shaman, not a dual-box Shaman + Shadow Priest, so I don't consider the "hep value" for mp5 to be valid. I really don't consider any of the T4, T5 or T6 values valid to be quite honest -- saying 1 haste has 2.0 hep alone is laughable. In any case, the point that Daidalos and I are making is that gemming for mp5 should be done on a very limited basis, and as such items that can be swapped in for effective mp5 in combat are high value. Unless a Resto Shaman is never even considering spending gem budget on mp5 whatsoever, the badge relic is of generally higher quality and value.

tremotrav · 05/06/08, 2:02 PM

Hey all,

Im new here to Resto spec, been playing as enhance all the way through. Have been collecting gear to change over. I have been reading through this thread which has helped quite a lot in understanding on how too's and what not. Just looking for tips...

Any macro recommendations?

I am currently using a mix of Glad's, Kara and ZA gear.

Also PVP vs PVE resto?

Main reason why im playing around with resto is because everyday I am pretty much asked if I am resto

Thanx Guys

Daidalos · 05/06/08, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Habanero

I play a Shaman, not a dual-box Shaman + Shadow Priest, so I don't consider the "hep value" for mp5 to be valid. I really don't consider any of the T4, T5 or T6 values valid to be quite honest -- saying 1 haste has 2.0 hep alone is laughable. In any case, the point that Daidalos and I are making is that gemming for mp5 should be done on a very limited basis, and as such items that can be swapped in for effective mp5 in combat are high value. Unless a Resto Shaman is never even considering spending gem budget on mp5 whatsoever, the badge relic is of generally higher quality and value.

The hep values are given for those with shadow priests becase we do not raid in a vacuum. Those who raid as enh take in account the buffs they give to the group and those they recieve. Those who raid as ele use totem of wrath due to its overall group benefit not only for themselves. HEP in a vacuum not in raid context is much more worthless if you have acess to the gear that allows for the stats we base our HEP on you are in a raid. That being said if you do not have a spriest in your group enough that you can count on it you should adjust your HEP values according but the majority of raiding shamans seems to more or less agree with the HEP values. The majority of fights in the majority of situations shamans are not running out of mana so the badge relic in a waste in those situations. The fights like brut are the exception in my experience the other resto shaman in our raids without spreists don't seem to be in need of mana (at least so that potting and tide coudn't fix) so in the majority of cases I wouldn't expect them to use the bedge relic either.

Originally Posted by tremotrav

Hey all,

Im new here to Resto spec, been playing as enhance all the way through. Have been collecting gear to change over. I have been reading through this thread which has helped quite a lot in understanding on how too's and what not. Just looking for tips...

Any macro recommendations?

I am currently using a mix of Glad's, Kara and ZA gear.

Also PVP vs PVE resto?

Main reason why im playing around with resto is because everyday I am pretty much asked if I am resto

Thanx Guys

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t24796-s...#Talent_Builds
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t24796-s...ration/#Macros

Quamutei · 05/06/08, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Unless you are in a situation where you know are you very likely to go oom, e.g. spamming CH 4 on brut without a spriest, I think the extra healing is much more useful. The amount of hps needed in sunwell is extremely high and 20-30mp5 gained in many cases woudn't be much help however since this is a relic and can be switched in after a cast is started I have been thining of picking it up for those situations where you might need the regen. Personally I think just gemming for +heal and pot and switch relics as needed gives the most vesatility.

Doesn't this go against how Restoration Shamans work though? I've heard of many resto shamans starting to stack haste once they're in Sunwell gear, but never healing over MP5. :\ Doesn't the gear at that level have way enough healing as it is (2200+)?

Daidalos · 05/06/08, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Quamutei

Doesn't this go against how Restoration Shamans work though? I've heard of many resto shamans starting to stack haste once they're in Sunwell gear, but never healing over MP5. :\ Doesn't the gear at that level have way enough healing as it is (2200+)?

No? Did you even read the wiki? Why would you stack mp5 over healing when you can downrank. I don't know of any shamans who stack mp5 in sunwell. Actually all the ones I talk to prefer haste and healing. I have about 2500 +heal and on fights like twins you feel like all the haste and healing you have just isn't enough (can depend on strat and raid makeup obviously).

So since people are completely failing at understanding why gemming for mp5 is pointless I'll post some numbers. People think that running out of mana is bad therefore gemming for mp5 is good. However what they are not considering is downranking. So we have 22 healing gems, 11 healing 2 mp5 gems, and 4 mp5 gems. lets assume you have 10 gems and lets see which actually saves more mana 10 4mp5 gems or 10 22 healing gems.

Below numbers are with +87 healing relic

Stats1: 2220 healing	Mana	Cast Time	Avg.Heal	Heal/mana	Heal/s	Mana consumed / 5s
Chain Heal 3 (3 target)	385	2.22	4952	12.87	2232.14	867.15
Chain Heal 3 (3) 2pc t6	346	2.22	4952	14.30	2232.14	780.44
Chain Heal 3 (3) 4pc t6	346	2.22	5200	15.02	2343.75	780.44

Chain Heal 4 (3 target)	413	2.22	5303	12.83	2390.58	931.39
Chain Heal 4 (3) 2pc t6	372	2.22	5303	14.26	2390.58	838.25
Chain Heal 4 (3) 4pc t6	372	2.22	5569	14.97	2510.11	838.25

Stats2: 2000 healing	Mana	Cast Time	Avg.Heal	Heal/mana	Heal/s	Mana consumed / 5s
Chain Heal 3 (3 target)	385	2.22	4610	11.98	2077.86	867.15
Chain Heal 3 (3) 2pc t6	346	2.22	4610	13.31	2077.86	780.44
Chain Heal 3 (3) 4pc t6	346	2.22	4840	13.98	2181.76	780.44

Chain Heal 4 (3 target)	413	2.22	4940	11.96	2226.96	931.39
Chain Heal 4 (3) 2pc t6	372	2.22	4940	13.28	2226.96	838.25
Chain Heal 4 (3) 4pc t6	372	2.22	5187	13.95	2338.30	838.25

First lets look at the amount of healing done to see if downranking produces the same amount of healing.
Chain Heal 4 (3) 4pc t6 372 2.22 5187 13.95 2338.30 838.25
we see that the total healing is 5187 with 2000 healing for 3 targets (note that it doesn't matter how many targets it hits as long we compare accordingly)
now we look at:
Chain Heal 3 (3) 4pc t6 346 2.22 5200 15.02 2343.75 780.44
we see that it does 5200 healing with 2220 healing (220 additional healing from spinels)

ok so we have similar amounts of healing done but how does the mp5 compare? We gain 4mp5 per gem x 10 gems so we have an additional 40 mp5 on the stats with 2000 healing. So how much mana we do save by downranking to CH3?
We go from 372 mana per cast to 346 mana per cast. This save us 26 mana per cast. Even if we had 0 haste this is more than 50 mp5. With the 200 haste given in the example we save 58 mp5 (838-780) per 5s. Now this is with 2pct6 what about all the people who don't have 2pct6 yet you ask?

This is even more strongly in favor of plus healing. Looking at the numbers we are saving 28 mana (413-385) per cast. So with 0 haste we save 56 mp5.

The only way mp5 could ever result in more mana would be if you are casting less than 2 CH per 5s but in that case I really doubt mana will be a problem.

Of course this isn't even taking into the fact that by gemming for mp5 you lower your maximum HPS output basically pigeonholing yourself for mana reasons which in most cases isn't even better for mana...

Edit: Sky you gotta show me how to make those nice looking tables.
Edit2: Figured out the table layout

Clearwater · 05/06/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

I think its safe to assume that the * Naruu Trinkets do exist and drop of Mu'ru. If you cannot move or cast while channeling Glimmering Naruu Silver I"d say its not as good as memento. If its just a buff that restores mana over 8s then it would be better.

Now that we have confirmed that

actually affect everyone that stands in the circle (I assume since its the case with the spellhaste trinket), that's 1970mana for everyone that is close enough to get in the circle, or 31mp5 (not my math, found it in healing trinket selection thread) for everyone in the circle, certainly a good alternative for those who aren't alchemists.
[Shifting Naaru Sliver] Would also be very nice for a haste set, but I dunno if I'd take it before a caster.

Habanero · 05/06/08, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

The hep values are given for those with shadow priests becase we do not raid in a vacuum. Those who raid as enh take in account the buffs they give to the group and those they recieve. Those who raid as ele use totem of wrath due to its overall group benefit not only for themselves. HEP in a vacuum not in raid context is much more worthless if you have acess to the gear that allows for the stats we base our HEP on you are in a raid. That being said if you do not have a spriest in your group enough that you can count on it you should adjust your HEP values according but the majority of raiding shamans seems to more or less agree with the HEP values. The majority of fights in the majority of situations shamans are not running out of mana so the badge relic in a waste in those situations. The fights like brut are the exception in my experience the other resto shaman in our raids without spreists don't seem to be in need of mana (at least so that potting and tide coudn't fix) so in the majority of cases I wouldn't expect them to use the bedge relic either.

Get enough Shamans and you pretty much guarantee that not all of them are grouped with Shadow Priests ;] Thank you for posting that very illustrative math below; it will make a good reference for pointing newer Shamans that think they should be piling on mp5 to. Would you mind going through a little bit more math to show how much more potent haste is than healing, especially for downranking? I can't possibly imagine that you agree that an HEP of 2.0 for 1.0 spell haste is appropriate.

Daidalos · 05/06/08, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by Habanero

Get enough Shamans and you pretty much guarantee that not all of them are grouped with Shadow Priests ;] Thank you for posting that very illustrative math below; it will make a good reference for pointing newer Shamans that think they should be piling on mp5 to. Would you mind going through a little bit more math to show how much more potent haste is than healing, especially for downranking? I can't possibly imagine that you agree that an HEP of 2.0 for 1.0 spell haste is appropriate.

Well it varies depending on both your amount of haste and your amount of plus healing. I actually do agree with 2.0 HEP value of haste because I am the caster group shaman and I always have a spriest. You ask about potency so I am going to assume you mean HPS. Obviously haste increases mana consumption and haste does not really help in downranking due to this increase in mana consumption. If you have mana problems +heal is the way to go if you don't have mana problems then haste is really is about 2x hps vs 1x hps for healing.

As for HPS amount increased of healing vs haste please see: http://elitistjerks.com/690858-post832.html

Habanero · 05/06/08, 6:55 PM

If haste was only about 2.0 HEP no one would ever gem for it. In gems 10 haste would be worth 20 healing but you could have just used a 22 healing instead. I'd say 3.0 is about right.

Bungmeister · 05/06/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Habanero

If haste was only about 2.0 HEP no one would ever gem for it. In gems 10 haste would be worth 20 healing but you could have just used a 22 healing instead. I'd say 3.0 is about right.

But I don't think any of us actually do gem haste. The only real socket that you'll see +10 haste in is the skyshatter helm. And the only reason for that is because the socket bonus gives a free +9 healing.

You're going with the premise that given 10 sockets, 100 haste is > 220 healing. I don't think it is.

Logio · 05/06/08, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Clearwater

Now that we have confirmed that

actually affect everyone that stands in the circle (I assume since its the case with the spellhaste trinket), that's 1970mana for everyone that is close enough to get in the circle, or 31mp5 (not my math, found it in healing trinket selection thread) for everyone in the circle, certainly a good alternative for those who aren't alchemists.

I may be wrong, but the DPS-Caster trinket is the only one which actually states something like "Power Circle", so the on-use managain should be only for the caster himself.