How to Heal like a Pro - Page 52

Sprout · 05/21/08, 2:17 PM

Sometimes there were be a lot of healers assigned to a tank because the raid isn't really taking any damage. In these situations the amount of healing is being given to the tank is much greater than the amount of damage he is taking. In these situations I like to spam Chain Heal rank 1 to clean up any stray damage to that tank and anyone who happens to be standing near him - since CH1 spam is easily sustainable with any amount of mana regen.

Actually I feel that spamming R1 HW does more for the tank in most cases like this. Keeping AF up reduces damage taken by 3-4%, and since in many cases where you have lots of healers on 1 target (Illidan P1 for example) smoothing off the spike damage is much more helpful. And it keeps healing way up which is important if your raid only has 1 resto shammie (a sad truth on the aliance side.)

I suppose with significant haste you could use a lower rank of LHWand get more healing close to the same # of casts/sec, but why would you bother. You are assuming that you already have enough heals landing on the tank and that spike damage is your only real risk.

Sprout · 05/21/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Shae

Thanks for the WWS, Skyhoof. I did a little digging into the intervals between procs, and noticed that the test results suggest there is a cooldown. I realize this goes contrary to the current wisdom here and in the Procs/cooldown thread so perhaps someone could help verify, explain or provide some evidence to the contrary. The shortest interval I observed in the WWS was 14.766s, and there were no other intervals shorter than 15s. From 15s on, there is a reasonably nice distribution of proc intervals. I can't think of a reason for the test to bias the results in this manner. If the procs are indeed independent events with ~3.5% probability, it seems unlikely that all the shorter intervals would be cut off in this manner, though the math escapes me on calculating exactly how improbable.

If I venture outside of observation and into the realm of speculation: assuming a ~15s cooldown, there would be ~9 casts after each event where the IED could not proc, and 622/(17428-622*9) = ~5.26% which is getting close to the Wowhead figure. The haste procs in the test data could certainly skew the results a bit.

I have always wondered about a CD on this because it seems like it procs ALOT at the start of fights. Might be just that I usually am more attentive early in fights, but it would not shock me if there were a Cd on this after all.

Should be easy enough to test though.

Shinwei · 05/21/08, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ninarz

Call me nitpicky but isn't this called Elitist Jerks for the reason that this is not the one-stop lrn2play shop? I consider these boards more of an intermediate to advanced area of learning than a place like the Shaman class forums where every noobie starts a thread about how to heal or weapon speeds for enhancement. There are many other resources on the internet, and frankly, shaman healing is not hard. If someone can't figure out how to use their three healing spells for different circumstances, then, they have a bigger issue than HEP values.

Every other healer thread on these boards has a lengthy and thought out discussion on healing strategy. This Resto Shaman thread is the only one that doesn't, and I cannot believe that anyone is actually proud of it. The reason these big "prominent class threads" exist is to be the one-stop lrn2play shop, not to throw out completely meaningless theorycrafting on HEP values for healing. Think about all the guilds who are in dire need of Resto Shaman right now, and there's really no good experienced ones around for them to recruit. They might have to tell a bunch of people who have never played a Resto Shaman in their lives to reroll or spec out of Elemental or something like that. In those guilds, the more experienced Resto Shaman have to spend hours in whispers giving these new shamans advice because this thread doesn't have the strategy information in it to get them up to par. Every other class of healer can just give a link to their respective EJ thread and BAM that new guy is already 70-80% of the way there. I agree that shaman healing is not hard, but there still are tricks and strats that we as experienced Resto Shaman employ that may take a new guy a very long tiem to figure out - and they should be shared. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that just because this is called Elitist Jerks that healing strategy discussion is out of the question, such a notion is beyond ridiculous to me.

In the case of gearing and HEP, take the druid thread for example. Whenever someone asks a question on that thread such as: "Hey guys I'd like some simple values I can plug in to lootrank to figure out what gear is best in what slot." - they are met with the following response: "The loot rank listed in the first post pretty much serves as a best gear list. There's no way to make a real best list because the comparative values of all of our stats vary greatly based on fight duration, assignment, playstyle, and group makeup."

Shinwei · 05/21/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sprout

Actually I feel that spamming R1 HW does more for the tank in most cases like this. Keeping AF up reduces damage taken by 3-4%, and since in many cases where you have lots of healers on 1 target (Illidan P1 for example) smoothing off the spike damage is much more helpful. And it keeps healing way up which is important if your raid only has 1 resto shammie (a sad truth on the aliance side.)

I suppose with significant haste you could use a lower rank of LHW and get more healing close to the same # of casts/sec, but why would you bother. You are assuming that you already have enough heals landing on the tank and that spike damage is your only real risk.

You can't really get more # of casts/sec by using R1 Healing Waves over LHW because the cast time of R1 Healing Wave isl ower than the GCD, and you still can't cast the next one until the GCD is over, while LHW's cast time is identical to the GCD. Either way I still like to cast Rank 1 CH because it serves the extra benefit of cleaning up any random damage the melee might incur by accidentally touching a flame crash, using blood rage, etc.

Mishael · 05/21/08, 2:29 PM

Haste procs could also skew the data if the haste proc occurs during the hidden CD on the meta, giving you more casts without the possibility of a meta proc.

Skyhoof · 05/21/08, 4:09 PM

I have to strongly disagree with the comments in this post.

Originally Posted by Shinwei

Every other healer thread on these boards has a lengthy and thought out discussion on healing strategy. This Resto Shaman thread is the only one that doesn't, and I cannot believe that anyone is actually proud of it.

I’m not sure what more we can say about the shaman healing strategy beyond what is in the Wiki under the Chain Heal section. Chain Heal is what we cast 90% of the time. The Wiki provides in-depth tables to compare the mana cost and healing done of various ranks of Chain Heal with our other spells. I do not see this level of detail in the other healing guides. The Healadin thread basically says use Flash of Light Rank 7 and various ranks of Holy Light. The druid thread does have detailed information on spell rotations for various tanking situations but they are the only healing class that has such rotations.

We also have a section discussion who should get an Earth Shield, taking into account spell pushback and other benefits. We are also the only healing thread that has an entire section devoted to what heals and totems to use on each major boss fight. If you have additional tips or strategies, please post them so we can add them to the post.

Originally Posted by Shinwei

The reason these big "prominent class threads" exist is to be the one-stop lrn2play shop, not to throw out completely meaningless theorycrafting on HEP values for healing.

The HEP values are not meaningless. There is a great deal of math behind these values. I find them an extremely useful guideline when selecting gear. However, as the guide points out, they are not set in stone. They will vary depending on play styles, healing assignments, raid make-up and just how you do healing in your guild.

Originally Posted by Shinwei

Every other class of healer can just give a link to their respective EJ thread and BAM that new guy is already 70-80% of the way there. I agree that shaman healing is not hard, but there still are tricks and strats that we as experienced Resto Shaman employ that may take a new guy a very long tiem to figure out - and they should be shared. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that just because this is called Elitist Jerks that healing strategy discussion is out of the question, such a notion is beyond ridiculous to me.

I appreciate the time you spent on your other post: http://elitistjerks.com/752946-post1270.html
However, I feel that this information is very basic and not unique to shaman healing. You could pretty much say the same for any healing class. I do consider the EJ forums for intermediate to advanced discussion.

You could send a new resto shaman to the wiki and thread and after reading both, he would have a pretty good idea of how to heal in a raid and how to select his gear and gems.

Originally Posted by Shinwei

In the case of gearing and HEP, take the druid thread for example. Whenever someone asks a question on that thread such as: "Hey guys I'd like some simple values I can plug in to lootrank to figure out what gear is best in what slot." - they are met with the following response: "The loot rank listed in the first post pretty much serves as a best gear list. There's no way to make a real best list because the comparative values of all of our stats vary greatly based on fight duration, assignment, playstyle, and group makeup."

And how is that different than the information given in the Resto Shaman Wiki? We not only give links to three different Loot Rank listings but provide values to make it easier to customize your own rankings. We also have a best in slot list.

I'm always looking for ways to improve the thread and the Wiki. So if you have some great secrets of shaman healing, please share them.

Shae · 05/21/08, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mishael

Haste procs could also skew the data if the haste proc occurs during the hidden CD on the meta, giving you more casts without the possibility of a meta proc.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, this is the type of skew I meant (though I think Skyhoof has a valid point), where haste could impact the number of casts occurring during a cooldown, which would in turn affect the guesstimate at the impact on the proc %. I just used 1.5s as an ideal talented non-hasted cast time for HW2.

The test data actually seemed to have an average cast time of ~1.535s (trimming out the first bit of the log where it looked like Skyhoof was getting set up - 17425 casts in 7:25:50 = 26750s). I actually guessed it would have been lower, given haste procs and I assume some haste gear, though I don't know how AHK was setup. There's certainly instances in the log with 1-1.5s cast times, but it's hard to know how much to attribute to lag or other factors.

Skyhoof · 05/21/08, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shae

Sorry if I wasn't clear, this is the type of skew I meant, where haste could impact the number of casts occurring during a cooldown, which would in turn affect the guesstimate at the impact on the proc %. I just used 1.5s as an ideal talented non-hasted cast time for HW2.

The test data actually seemed to have an average cast time of ~1.535s (trimming out the first bit of the log where it looked like Skyhoof was getting set up - 17425 casts in 7:25:50 = 26750s). I actually guessed it would have been lower, given haste procs and I assume some haste gear, though I don't know how AutoHotKey was setup. There's certainly instances in the log with 1-1.5s cast times, but it's hard to know how much to attribute to lag or other factors.

I'm pretty sure I would have worn my normal healing gear when I did the test. And that gear has a lot of haste, maybe 12-16%. I will make a note of how much haste I have when I redo the test. For AutoHotKey, I used the script that was posted in the Elemental Shaman forum to cast Lightning Bolt with the 2 key.

#ifWinActive World of Warcraft
{
$2::
   Loop  
   {
    if not GetKeyState("2", "P")
      break
     Send 2 
     sleep 1
    }
return
$6::
   Loop  
   {
    if not GetKeyState("6", "P")
      break
     Send 6 
     sleep 1
    }}
return

To be honest, I'm not even sure what the sleep function does. Could that be the problem? If anyone has a suggested AHK script, please let me know and I'll give it a try.

Daidalos · 05/21/08, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

The HEP values are not meaningless. There is a great deal of math behind these values. I find them an extremely useful guideline when selecting gear. However, as the guide points out, they are not set in stone. They will vary depending on play styles, healing assignments, raid make-up and just how you do healing in your guild.

The HEP values not only have alot of math behind them but they also have feedback from shaman who are actualy out there healing every night. Sure HEP values can vary per fight however what we have done is make a good average case HEP values that apply in most situations. Also I put those values into practice in every single fight in the game ( barring Kil'jeaden but hopefully get to him this week). It was decided when making the EJ wikis that it was not to have boss specific tips in it since that was more of a wowwikki thing. I do agree that gear can change from fight to fight, but do you really need a post for every boss explaining how you should gear for your raid? The point of HEP and all the TC that goes on isn't a general purpose solutions for all shaman everywhere in every situation. The point is to explain how to arrive at those values and if you can't figure such thigns out for yourself we made some good generic HEP values that will get you through things.

As far as you post goes for explaining shaman healing I don't see it being anything shaman specific about healing that isn't covered in the resto wiki, so I can't agree with your post about what is lacking in this thread. Personally I find it highly doubtful that after reading the resto wiki a new shaman will be clueless about how to heal.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what the sleep function does. Could that be the problem? If anyone has a suggested AHK script, please let me know and I'll give it a try.

Sleep just tells the script to pause for x milisecs. THis just prevents your client from spamming the wowservers as fast your computer can run and instead only sends a button press once per milisec.

Also I should say AHK is most likely saved me from hand injuries on long nights of mu'ru attempts. 6 hours of button smashing vs 6 hours of just holding down a key is a huge difference. I really can't recommend AHK enough.

Mishael · 05/21/08, 6:21 PM

Can someone give an overview of what AHK does or direct me to the correct place to read about it?

Skyhoof · 05/21/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Sleep just tells the script to pause for x milisecs. THis just prevents your client from spamming the wowservers as fast your computer can run and instead only sends a button press once per milisec.

Also I should say AHK is most likely saved me from hand injuries on long nights of mu'ru attempts. 6 hours of button smashing vs 6 hours of just holding down a key is a huge difference. I really can't recommend AHK enough.

Can you post the AHK that you are using? Have you gotten it to work with mouse buttons as well as the keyboard?

Daidalos · 05/21/08, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mishael

Can someone give an overview of what AHK does or direct me to the correct place to read about it?

Skyhoof made a thread devoted to it here: The AutoHotKey Thread
Also you can use google.com and search for autohotkey :-p. In the time it took to post you could have searched and started reading already :-)

I don't have my mouse buttons setup to use it however there are example scripts in the AHK site that use mouse buttons. If you need help just pm me later

rava · 05/21/08, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Shinwei

Every other healer thread on these boards has a lengthy and thought out discussion on healing strategy. This Resto Shaman thread is the only one that doesn't, and I cannot believe that anyone is actually proud of it. The reason these big "prominent class threads" exist is to be the one-stop lrn2play shop, not to throw out completely meaningless theorycrafting on HEP values for healing. Think about all the guilds who are in dire need of Resto Shaman right now, and there's really no good experienced ones around for them to recruit. They might have to tell a bunch of people who have never played a Resto Shaman in their lives to reroll or spec out of Elemental or something like that. In those guilds, the more experienced Resto Shaman have to spend hours in whispers giving these new shamans advice because this thread doesn't have the strategy information in it to get them up to par. Every other class of healer can just give a link to their respective EJ thread and BAM that new guy is already 70-80% of the way there. I agree that shaman healing is not hard, but there still are tricks and strats that we as experienced Resto Shaman employ that may take a new guy a very long tiem to figure out - and they should be shared. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that just because this is called Elitist Jerks that healing strategy discussion is out of the question, such a notion is beyond ridiculous to me.

In the case of gearing and HEP, take the druid thread for example. Whenever someone asks a question on that thread such as: "Hey guys I'd like some simple values I can plug in to lootrank to figure out what gear is best in what slot." - they are met with the following response: "The loot rank listed in the first post pretty much serves as a best gear list. There's no way to make a real best list because the comparative values of all of our stats vary greatly based on fight duration, assignment, playstyle, and group makeup."

I don't understand what you expect. This thread provides basic knowledge of shaman healing and encounter specific roles. Not everything here will apply to you and your raid, but they are general guidelines for you to work within and figure out what works for you depending on your raid composition, You want a new shaman to get healing experience? Tell them to sit in pug bg's and heal the terribles, healing is all about reaction time and assessing what's needed in any given situation as fast as possible. What's so bad about spending time with new shaman recruits? If they're reading this thread they're going to have basic information about the spec, and who better to further them than someone that's experienced with the typical raid composition and general tasks assigned? I enjoy when new shaman ask me questions, it's a display of them wanting to improve. If a new shaman showed up to a raid with 0 questions thinking they understood the ins and outs of the spec from reading this thread I think I'd be more disturbed than anything.

Maghun · 05/22/08, 5:03 AM

So new KJ loot(1 hd healing mace) I guess ill have to try get one of these since nothing but cloak and plate helm drops for us of illidan > <

Edit:link didn't work.

Skyhoof · 05/22/08, 6:51 AM

Here's a link to the Hammer of Sanctification from Kil'Jaeden:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...tification.jpg

Mishael · 05/22/08, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Skyhoof made a thread devoted to it here: The AutoHotKey Thread
Also you can use google.com and search for autohotkey :-p. In the time it took to post you could have searched and started reading already :-)

I don't have my mouse buttons setup to use it however there are example scripts in the AHK site that use mouse buttons. If you need help just pm me later

Sorry, I was having difficulty finding it on here, and I don't typically use google as a premium source of information.

Skyhoof · 05/22/08, 2:30 PM

Until yesterday, I was never concerned with the HEP value of the [Crystal Spire of Karabor] or how to value its proc. It was the best healing mace in the game hands down. However, now it has some competition – the Hammer of Sanctification.

I think shaman are going to want both of these maces. We will probably want to use the one from Kil’jeaden for normal healing and the Crystal Spire in situations where people are often below 50% health.

Crystal Spire 511.66 HEP (before proc)
Hammer 654.15 HEP (with Teardrop Crimson Spinel)

So if the Crystal Spire doesn’t proc, the Hammer is clearly the superior healing mace. The proc heals the target for another 200 health if they are below 50%. Let’s assume a shaman is using chain heal, which with talents, has a spell coefficient of 94%, 47% and 24%.

EDIT: Daidalos came up with a much better value for the proc (see post below)

Here’s the amount of +healing you would need on each jump of chain heal to equal the Crystal Spire’s proc

Jump #1 213
Jump #2 425.5
Jump #3 833

So on any cast where the mace procs, it will allow you to do more healing than the Hammer.

joshwill80 · 05/22/08, 2:48 PM

I was looking for some good starting HEP values to throw into an in-game addon of mine. Thanks for taking the time to do the math on these Skyhoof!

I'm wondering why a couple of the values change so much from t5 to t6. Specifically spell crit, mp5, and haste. A few of those stats more than double. Why did you give such a big weight change? Would be helpful for me to know why I figure.

Just trying to find some good starting values. I was thinking of just taking the averages from t5 and t6 and using those values. Do you think that would work well? Thanks again!

Daidalos · 05/22/08, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

Until yesterday, I was never concerned with the HEP value of the [Crystal Spire of Karabor] or how to value its proc. It was the best healing mace in the game hands down. However, now it has some competition – the Hammer of Sanctification.

I think shaman are going to want both of these maces. We will probably want to use the one from Kil’jeaden for normal healing and the Crystal Spire in situations where people are often below 50% health.

Crystal Spire 511.66 HEP (before proc)
Hammer 654.15 HEP (with Teardrop Crimson Spinel)

So if the Crystal Spire doesn’t proc, the Hammer is clearly the superior healing mace. The proc heals the target for another 200 health if they are below 50%. Let’s assume a shaman is using chain heal, which with talents, has a spell coefficient of 94%, 47% and 24%.

Here’s the amount of +healing you would need on each jump of chain heal to equal the Crystal Spire’s proc

Jump #1 213
Jump #2 425.5
Jump #3 833

So on any cast where the mace procs, it will allow you to do more healing than the Hammer.

Hammer is the first weapon that makes me tempted to switch. As for which is better it will depend on how often you get procs with spire. However I don't think breaking down the comparison per jump is the proper way to compare the two.

Lets assume you get once proc with a spire which is an additional 200 healing (ingoring crit since it can be factored out of both weapons). To be equal the Hammer would have to in total do an additional 200 healing over 3 jumps (or we can use 2.5 jumps or whatever if people feel thats better) not 200 on only the first jump. (assuming we are just talking hps not effectiveness on who gets what amount of healing)
To get a total of 200 additional healing over 3 jumps is a 1.65(.94*1.75) coef for the total healing done.
so 200healing/(1.65healing/+heal) is 121 additional +heal (or HEP since 1 healing = 1 HEP) to equal one proc from the Spire.

Of course you do not on average get one proc per CH so from a pure TC hps standpoint Hammer is superior. Numberswise I think Hammer has a clear advantage however its much harder to quantify the usefulness of the Spire proc since it proc when needed most (low health). I in general agree with Sky's assesment of Hammer is superior except in special situations where you know Spire will proc alot however.

Skyhoof · 05/22/08, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by joshwill80

I was looking for some good starting HEP values to throw into an in-game addon of mine. Thanks for taking the time to do the math on these Skyhoof!

I'm wondering why a couple of the values change so much from t5 to t6. Specifically spell crit, mp5, and haste. A few of those stats more than double. Why did you give such a big weight change? Would be helpful for me to know why I figure.

Just trying to find some good starting values. I was thinking of just taking the averages from t5 and t6 and using those values. Do you think that would work well? Thanks again!

The Tier 5 values could probably use a good review and update (to be honest). The Tier 5 mp5 value is probably too high so feel free to use an average of T5 and T6 (or determine your own value). The haste value changes dramatically at T6 because haste is really only available on Tier 6 gear. I would use either the T5 value or the T6 value but not average them.

I would have to review the math in Binkenstein's Shamstats to remember exactly why spell crit increases so much for Tier 6 (and have I mentioned that math makes my head hurt?). Crit probably increases in value because you now have more +healing, which means your crits land for much more. And if you also have haste, you're going to get more crits per minute. Setting math aside, the Ancestral Fortitude proc is crucial in many Sunwell fights such as Brutallus.

Skyhoof · 05/22/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Hammer is the first weapon that makes me tempted to switch. As for which is better it will depend on how often you get procs with spire. However I don't think breaking down the comparison per jump is the proper way to compare the two.

Lets assume you get once proc with a spire which is an additional 200 healing (ingoring crit since it can be factored out of both weapons). To be equal the Hammer would have to in total do an additional 200 healing over 3 jumps (or we can use 2.5 jumps or whatever if people feel thats better) not 200 on only the first jump. (assuming we are just talking hps not effectiveness on who gets what amount of healing)
To get a total of 200 additional healing over 3 jumps is a 1.65(.94*1.75) coef for the total healing done.
so 200healing/(1.65healing/+heal) is 121 additional +heal (or HEP since 1 healing = 1 HEP) to equal one proc from the Spire.

Of course you do not on average get one proc per CH so from a pure TC hps standpoint Hammer is superior. Numberswise I think Hammer has a clear advantage however its much harder to quantify the usefulness of the Spire proc since it proc when needed most (low health). I in general agree with Sky's assesment of Hammer is superior except in special situations where you know Spire will proc alot however.

I like how Daidalos has valued the proc (did I mention that he's awesome at math?). His approach seems quite conservative. After all, it's possible that the mace will proc on multiple jumps of chain heal and when it procs on the third jump that's quite a boost to the healing normally done. However, I think the +121 healing is a fair value for the proc.

Daidalos · 05/22/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

I like how Daidalos has valued the proc (did I mention that he's awesome at math?). His approach seems quite conservative. After all, it's possible that the mace will proc on multiple jumps of chain heal and when it procs on the third jump that's quite a boost to the healing normally done. However, I think the +121 healing is a fair value for the proc.

Yeah there are plenty of counter arguments or situations where you won't get anywhere close to one proc per CH it entirely depends on your raid make up (e.g. healer heavy raid comp would lower its value) the encounter and other factors as well. It might be only 50% of CH casts or maybe 33% of them but when it procs its has never overhealed and frequently its procs have helped me "catch up" on healing. If others woud like to weigh in on what you feel its value please do so.

Bungmeister · 05/22/08, 6:53 PM

I'd say the mace is nice and will definitely get you better healing numbers due to the healing/haste improvements. So in a pure "meter-maid" state of mind, the KJ mace should be fairly superior.

If all incoming damage is single point, it's definitely win. However, for fights such as M'uru and Twins where you NEED the 2 CH jumps to keep people up, the proc on the Crystal Spire is so freaking useful simply because your 2nd and 3rd jumps just don't heal for a whole lot.

If we had to loot council weapons at gunpoint, I'd think CoH priests+shamans get the Spire while Resto-druids, DS priests, Pallys should get the KJ mace.

Of course, that's not to say I don't want one

Coztomba · 05/23/08, 12:11 AM

Spire proc doesn't overheal (there when you need it), I think in the real world more than makes up for the +heal deficit. The passive haste though is nice. In the end, by the time we have access to it we'll have finished to game so to speak so kinda low excitement level about it when it's not going to help me though the now, but just help me farm an instance for the next "x" amount of months.

pfg · 05/23/08, 8:46 PM

so sorry to ask for such a noob clarification on CH

the tooltip says party member, but ive watched and im pretty sure iv seen it jump to non-party members of the target and at a pretty long range. other times it hasnt jumped to someone not at 100% standing right next to me (party healing on najentus last night). i have tried to read all the info on this great forum but im still at a loss to understand all the rules, if you will, on how CH works.