Daidalos

Hmm I'll double check I'm always removing poisons so I guess I never really tested very carefully. Although I must say so far in WotLK instance I've been disappointed by the lack of curses. I'm just looking for an excuse to spam cleanse and feel good about it.. so far not really had any use for it (and I'm only resto for instances. 1 copper respecs ftw).

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Mandrachalos

Nope.

FoDW is worth 1 k more mana plus around 250 extra mana with mana tide by the Flask's extra mana every 5 minutes. FoMR is 25 MP5 - 300 mana every minute, 1500 mana every 5 minutes. It's obvious, eh?
Sure, you get some crit and around 20 healing by FoDW, but still it sucks compared to FoMR.

 

Daidalos

For most sunwell shaman mp5 isn't as desired as the increase in crit and healing. I typically use FoDW unless I'm being cheap and use FoMR from a mark. If it really matters I'd rather chain pot with an alch stone and have a FoDW. Sky and I spent alot of work trying to develop HEP values and for most sunwell shaman you will see that FoDW has a higher HEP value. HEP values can vary on due to many vars and if you prefer FoMR thats fine but there is solid math on why most should prefer FoDW.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Mandrachalos

Hmh, interesting, Í never thought the FoDW could be better. I will look into it, thanks for tip.

 

Skyhoof

The wiki could use a little more info on how much dodge our Grace of Air provides for tanks:

Regular GOA = 77 agility
Talented GOA = 88.55 agility

	Druid	Paladin	Warrior
Regular GOA	5.39%	3.08%	2.56%
Talented GOA	6.20%	3.54%	2.95%
Talented GOA + Kings*	6.80%	3.90%	3.24%

* And Survival of the Fittest for Druids

Here are the conversions I used to make checking my numbers easier:

Druid
14.7 agility =1% dodge
13 agility = 1% dodge with Kings and SotF

Paladin
25 agility = 1% dodge
22.7 agility = 1% dodge with Kings

Warrior
30 agility = 1% dodge
27.3 agility = 1% dodge with Kings

Also, still looking for confirmation that this macro doesn't work:

 

Mizaru

Yea, that macro does not work. The last time I tried that macro it would fail as soon as you could not cure a Poison on your target, which makes it useless as you are trying to cast Cure Poison/Disease depending on which one your target is afflicted with.

/castrandom Cure Poison, Cure Disease is also a possibility, but its pretty random. You can hit the macro a few times before you get your desired spell to cure the target.

 

Mielinh

I ran some numbers using my calculator (http://www.admin.mtu.edu/esis/test/oom.php)

*Note this is fully raid buffed; Int, Mark, Kings, Wisdom, Fishsticks, the works.
Numbers I entered, denoted FoDW/FoMR
Lag: 0
Total Mana: 13831/12704
Buffed Mp5: 251/276
(full regen): 503/528
Haste: 311
Tidal Focus: Rank 5
Totemic Focus: Rank 2
Tidal Mastery: Rank 5
Main Spell: CH Rank 4
+ Heal: 2552/2510
High CH hits
T6 2 and 4 set bonuses, Blessed Weapon, and Crystal Spire
NO SPRIEST
High Water Shield
Race: Troll
Meta: IED
Relic: Healing Rains
Totems: Mana + Wrath

I then tested multiple fight lengths for Sunwell-esque, 5, 7, and 9 minutes. Averaged 50 fights (I have a separate area to do this, but not shared to save bandwidth)

Results:

FoDW
5 min - 813,968 Total Healing
7 min - 1,076,349 TH
9 min - 1,332,405 TH

FoMR
5 min - 792,805 TH
7 min - 1,059,340 TH
9 min - 1,314,723 TH

So according to my calculator, if I'm in a fight healing constantly (Brut) with no Spriest, then FoDW is better for me with my current spec and gear (See armory).

For different people, FoMR could be better. Test less haste etc. Everyone will have different stats to play around with, and stating that one flask is better then the other could be a bad assumption.

I actually find that my mana stability, whether I use mp5 or int, is highly dependent on lucky potions from the Alchemy stone. If I have a few mid 3,000, I know I will be set, but hitting a low 2500 will mean I need to take more care for the next two minutes. Having more mana in this case gives me a larger buffer to work with.

 

Shadovv

im interested in hearing more from people who have and use the [Glimmering Naaru Sliver]. do you find yourself in sunwell often unable to get the channelled proc? or isnt it much of an issue.

My guild is just starting out on sunwell and im not sure whether or not this trinket should be a priority. im currently only using [Tome of Diabolic Remedy] and [Battlemaster's Alacrity] (still waiting for illidan to drop another damn momento ><)

but since im not an alch, il assume this+momento is definitely the way to go? the think-tank lists momento and the diabolic as best in slots, but losing the passive +heal from another trinket like this doesnt seem the way to go.

 

Rosholm

Although I dont have the sliver I wonder if people arent a bit overly negative towards it. If you ever find the time to dedicate a global cooldown to activating drums or what have you, then channeling Glimmering Naaru Sliver for 2 ticks shouldnt really be a problem- 2 ticks is like 1.6s with a little haste and nets you 500 mana(16 mp5 on a 6 min fight). Not that bad tbh, and most likely better than, say, Tome of Diabolic Remedy.

edit: Ok my math was clearly off, Im not even sure how I ended up at 16. But heres what I meant- 6 mins = 360s

500 mana per 360s is ~1.4 per second or ~7 mp5

Terribly sorry about the misinformation

 

Shadovv

It's a 5min CD on the trinket so its more like 4mp5 if you only get the 2 ticks..

 

TheSilverHand

Two ticks is 8.3 Mp5, and so is 16.6 on a six minute fight; exactly like Rosholm said.

 

Aeverius

No, you were right the first time. What I'm pretty sure you did is take 500 mana (two ticks) over 300 seconds (5 min trinket CD), get 8.3 mp5, and then double it because a six minute fight allows you another trinket use, for 16.6 mp5. This is correct, as TheSilverHand confirmed.

You can't value the trinket in mp5 terms by dividing mana gain by fight time. If you did, two ticks would be ~42 mp5 over a one-minute fight, but ~21 over a two minute fight. The trinket allows you to regain a large amount of mana in a short time, so the shorter the time you calculate based on, the better it looks. The problem here is that unlike mp5, you can't get more mana out of the Sliver by increasing fight time, so for all fights greater than 8 seconds (the time it takes to get a full channel off), it looks increasingly bad until you hit 5 minutes and can use the item again.

Try it like this: in the worst-case scenario, you get one tick per CD. If you use the trinket once in a fight, that's 250 mana in 5 minutes, or ~4.1 mp5. The best-case scenario will give you 2000 mana, or ~33 mp5. The median (4 ticks out of 8) is 1000 mana: ~16 mp5. So, on a fight less than or equal to five minutes, at half its potential effectiveness, it's still about as good in terms of regen as [Tome of Diabolic Remedy], and the healing bonus is obviously better as well.

Thus, the value for [Glimmering Naaru Sliver] in mp5, per use, is anywhere from ~4 to ~33 mana depending on how much of the channel you can get off without interruption. The part of the original question about how much of the channel you can actually expect to get, I can't answer due to not being a Resto Shaman in Sunwell. However, at just 1/4 effectiveness, it easily compares to the [Tome of Diabolic Remedy], so I feel comfortable in saying that unless you are never, ever able to get more than two ticks out of it, it is definitely a better trinket.

Improved Lay on Hands is really fucking good:

 

Solia

Do you really need the mana? The only reason I'd use this trinket is to get 119 healing, but there are better trinkets for that. I passed on it, so I guess I can't offer first hand experience, but it's rare we can afford to stop spamming to channel it. When we can, mana probably isn't much of a concern anyways. Definitely better trinkets for us.

 

Shadovv

I only have a shadow priest about 50% of the time. When I don't, I often run into problems yes.

So what do you recommend for a non-alchemist shaman? Memento and what?

 

Handyhoof

Cookie-cutter answer: [Tome of Diabolic Remedy]

More in depth answer: Trinkets are like Pokemon. Collect them all and use the one you need. You have trinkets based on mana, healing, and haste. If you're deficient in one area, augment that with a trinket, or swap around based on the fight, raid composition, or your random fancy.

 

Solia

[Shifting Naaru Sliver] or if you don't want to upset your casters you can use [Battlemaster's Alacrity]

I use both haste trinkets and switch to the Sliver and the Alch stone for mana. If you're hurting for mana and you are using pots/tide correctly then I would suggest [Eye of Gruul] or the tome. The Eye and the insightful meta both scale very well with haste.

I never got a memento and probably wouldn't bother unless I planned to drop Alch. Mana issues are usually better solved through better use of cooldowns (pots/tide/dark runes) or down-ranking then trinkets.

 

Maalek

Hi,

I often read your post and find it interesting, but I am still surprised to see the Tome of diabolic remedy as a top trinket, especially compared to the Essence of the martyr.
Tome is healing + mp5 whereas Essence is healing only, so is more adapted once the needed mp5 is achieved

And if we look at figures :
Essence is worth 84 + 297*20/120 = 134 healing
Tome is worth 396 * 20/120 = 66 healing + 18 mp5

In order to say Tome is better, you should value mp5 at least at 3.8 healing, which isn't the case from T5 content according to the weight you recommend in the thinktank.

That is why I would like to suggest you to replace the Tome by the Essence.

 

Skyhoof

Trinkets are a hard slot to evaluate solely on a mathematical basis. That's why the wiki contains an entire section on evaluating trinkets. Trinkets are usually the first piece of gear you swap when going into a fight that might require more haste, more +healing or more mp5.

The very best trinkets are [Memento of Tyrande] and [Redeemer's Alchemist Stone]. Many shaman like the [Tome of Diabolic Remedy] because of its balance between +healing and mp5. Other viable end-game trinkets would include [Essence of the Martyr], [Battlemaster's Alacrity] or [Eye of Gruul]. Or the trinkets dropped by Muru if your guild is lucky enough to be able to kill him.

Of course, this will likely all change once they release Patch 3.0 with the new talents and nerfs to downranking and chain chugging potions.

 

KnThrak

I there any specific breaking point at which I would have so much +healing I could rather use CH Rank3 than use manaregenerating effects and Rank4?

My specific issue is this:
I recently looted [Tome of Diabolic Remedy] and [Fathom-Brooch of the Tidewalker], replacing [Ribbon of Sacrifice] and [Essence of the Martyr]. Ofc I carry them both around in case I don't need mana at all.

The problem is though, I took the trinkets because I had mana issues, now I am down to 1900 +healing from my 2050, and I feel naked with that. Might be a psychological issue ofc.

So I figured "Hrm, could at least swap the Brooch for the Essence again, some +heal back, another clickie, or maybe even the Ribbon for mass-healing fights". But then I took a look at some WWS logs, and I noticed Revitalize (the proc of Fathom-Brooch) usually runs 15%-20% behind Mana Spring Totem.
Which would make it extremely powerful on paper, so I am wondering whether, from a raw need-mana-but-also-healing perspective, swapping the Tome isn't more useful.


Specifically, is the Brooch really so superior on manaregen that I could better drop the 18mp5/healclickie for healing/healclicky than swap the brooch to a +heal trinket? I read it's ~27.5mp5 or so, but in my logs it seems to do more around 35-40 mp5, which makes it appear extremely powerful for a T5 trinket to me.

Anyone else had such results?
I'm really not sure which trinket to swap for a +heal now. I wanted to swap one back, and I was sure the Brooch is the weaker, but my WWS logs seem to differ. :S

SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

 

Skyhoof

If you had 1900 healing, your CH4 would heal for 2900 on one target, or 5000 on three targets.
If you had 2225 healing, your CH3 would heal for 2900 on one target or 5000 on three targets.

You can find these numbers by using Daidalos' spreadsheet: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

You say you're having mana issues. Are you using mana pots (including Fel Mana pots)? Keeping up water shield? Using your mana tide? Keeping mana spring up? Using a relic that reduces the cost of your most commonly cast healing spell?

If you feel you have to use CH3 rather than CH4 solely for mana reasons, there is another issue that you have to address. CH3 is great to keep a raid topped off when they are taking little damage but you should be able to cast CH4 in most fights.

It is certainly possible (although unlikely over any large sampling) to get 35-40 mp5 from [Fathom-Brooch of the Tidewalker]. The trinket has a 45 second cooldown. If it procs every 45 seconds, you would get 37 mp5. However, a trinket rarely procs as soon as its cool down expires. They usually have a 10-20% chance to proc so you usually have to cast a few spells. As a result, the proc normally occurs about once per minute, which equals 28 mp5.

Of the trinkets you mentioned, I would use [Tome of Diabolic Remedy] and [Essence of the Martyr] on most fights. If you continue to struggle with mana, see if you can get an [Eye of Gruul]. It can be very useful on fights where you are spamming chain heal.

 

Negg

Memento + Battlemaster are the best picks, the Muru DPS trinket could be used also (GL getting it), don't see why all those people like those use:+heal trinkets, they're not that hot in most fights.

For Muru healing trinket, it's horrible, nothing less. Only use for it is trash and Felmyst and even then there are better options.

 

Shadovv

Oh Neg, that reminds me of something I have been wanting to ask.

Is it better to keep 4piece T6 for the bonus, or get all the sunwell pieces. I've always thought that it is better to keep the 4piece so I was intending on keeping the chest; however I notice you have all the sunwell pieces and drop the 4piece, do you think it is worth losing the bonus for the extra haste the chest provides?

 

Negg

Sadly you are right, keeping 4 pieces T6 is better, think it was shoulders that is the best slot to drop, or gloves.

If I dropped the 4th piece of T6 then that is just for doing dailies (looks ftw), in raids I always use te T6 chest (as we only had one Sunwell chest).

As mods likes to give me infractions for everything and anything (account 3 is coming soon) I'll explain the previous post a bit more.

Memento is a clear pick 120+healing and +/-25mp5, both almost static, is just good, doubt anyone would question that. For the Battlemaster trinket it's the haste, as shaman haste is the most efficient way in increasing your effectiveness, we use 1 haste = 5+healing, so +40 haste is good. the use ability isn't particular hot, but it's decent.

Trinkets as Tome of Diabolic remedy aren't that good cause first of all mp5 is not what you want once you get your hands on T6 items (before that it could be considered) and use:+heal abilities rarely are that good, in most fights you need to produce a constant stream of HPS, not a spiky one.

A trinket as Eye of gruul shouldn't even be up here, the internal CD is way to long (45 sec ?) and 44 +healing not that much, even a lower city prayer book is better (which is actually a quite good trinket).

Muru healing trinkets offers a static 120+healing, which is good, but the use is unusable, there are hardly any fights where you can go stand 8 seconds and channel for 2k mana, if that is possible then tell your RL to take a healer less.

 

Solia

I don't think there is a cooldown on the Eye proc. I've definitely had it proc more than once every 45 seconds.

 

Pitbuller

I know haste is good. But theorycraft say haste is about 2.2 healing for hps value and about 2Hep when factoring mana consumption. So can you show where did 5 come from?

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.