I'm trying to help with the testing but I'm unable to get procwatch to work on the PTR. What are the addons being used by those who are currently testing?

Thinking about this... we have 25%~ spell crit and 30%~ melee crit with totems down. Mongoose enchants etc take this over 30%.

With the crit MW we'd generate a proc every 3 crits. With hasted WF/Flurry a 2.6 speed weapon becomes 1.3 speed. Meaning every 3.9 seconds we'd get a proc from my MH. With a 2.6 speed OH we'd get 2 procs every 3.9 seconds - so 1 proc every 1.95 seconds. Resulting in 5 procs every 9.75 seconds. A minute we'd get 6.15 Lightning Bolts; 30.75 procs. Over 6 minutes this would be 36.9 Lightning bolts; 184.5 procs.

If the PPM is 12.4 (24.8 when DWing) then we generate 144.8 procs every 6 minutes. 29.76 Lightning Bolts. 4.96Lightning Bolts a minute; 24.8 procs a minute.

If we were to use a 2.6 speed MH and a 1.3 speed OH the crit based MW would generate a proc every 2.6 seconds - so 1 proc every 1.3 seconds. Results in 5 procs every 6.5 seconds. A minute we'd get 9.23 Lightning Bolts; 46.15 procs a minute. Over 6 minutes this would generate 55 Lightning Bolts; 276.9 procs.

Compared with the 15% on hit MW version. In an ideal world (we gain hasted WF/Flurry) we would gain a proc every 8.66 seconds (with a 2.6 speed weapon) or every 4.329 seconds (with a 1.3 speed weapon). If we were dual wielding 2 2.6 speed weapons: 2 procs every 8.66 seconds. If we were dual wielding 2 1.3 speed weapons: 2 procs every 4.329 seconds. With a 2.6 speed MH and a 1.3 speed OH we'd get 2 procs every 6.525 seconds.

- with 2x 2.6 speed weapons: 8.66 secs * 5 = 43.3. 60 secs / 43.3 = 1.38 Lightning Bolts a minute; 6.9 procs.
- with 2x 1.3 speed weapons: 4.329 secs * 5 = 21.645. 60 secs / 21.645 = 2.77 Lightning Bolts a minute; 13.8 procs.
- with 1 2.6 speed weapon and 1 1.3 speed weapon: 6.525 * 5 = 32.625. 60 / 32.625 = 1.83 Lightning Bolts a minute; 9.1 procs

This is a nerf compared to the on crit version, a buff compared to the 15% on hit version. I prefer the crit based system because it scales with gear. I believe all the maths is correct though. Double checked it. May have some formula wrong, but otherwise it is correct I believe.

Well, at least this one doesn't suffer in pvp, or does it?

Didn't play a class with a ppm mechanic before so i don't know all the details

If you want to test if other peoples attacks are procing it group with someone. Go to the dummy and set it on auto attack then turn your back to the target, then have your partner start attacking the same dummy. If you get a proc...report it.

On a side not I tested it with my normal raid gear and it was procing up so fast it reminded me of the crit base MW. I was easily getting stacks of 5 in 2 seconds or less at times. I can't see this being intended.

What's wrong with that?

The issue as Blizzard seemed to see it was not that we get instant casts all the time but rather that the 100% crit chance and high base damage of Lava Burst was leading to excessive dps. This was exacerbated by using very fast weapons to increase that proc rate.

PPM will give you the same stack rate whether you use very fast daggers or very slow weapons. It is slightly preferential to slow weapons and very preferential to windfury imbue (at least on one of the weapons). With Windfury on a weapon we don't get the bonus spellpower from the Flametongue imbue so that would seem to limit the issue with that. We also don't have a lot of spellpower anyway so the additional casts are more damage but with our lower spell crit rate and a lightning bolt's much lower base damage (then Lava Burst) it shouldn't scale out of control the way that it did with the crit based MW combined with Lava Burst.

Right now it may seem to stack incredibly fast but unless the dps is outside what Blizzard is intending there really is no need to talk about nerfing it. Sim will probably be up in a day or two and people will be using it during raids and stuff over the weekend so until we see reports of Enh Shaman topping meters after eating a hateful strike again just stop with the nerf talk.

Fast stacks are only an issue if it raises our dps above what Blizzard feels is the acceptable amount, until we see reports like that just stop with the "omg must needz Nurf" crap. It's really unproductive.


As for Malan's report that it was stacking before he touched the mob, that would be a Bug and one that needs to be fixed. Please test that and see if it is working from other people in group or from things like searing totem or the wolves so we can help Blizzard to get it fixed.

Just tested on PTR:
- Spirit Wolves do not proc Maelstrom weapon (used 4 times for 45 seconds)
- Searing Totem does not proc Maelstrom weapon (used 5 times for 5 minutes)
- Warlocks/Mages/Hunters do not proc Maelstrom weapon (had a lock cast Shadowbolt for 5 minutes, Mage cast Fireball for 3 and a Hunter auto-shot for 4 minutes)

So, I took a few rounds on the test dummies

I just wanted to know if WF/WF or WF/FT would be better.

I´m only lvl 71, so sorry if I can´t provide any better than this:

lvl 70 dummie, Slow/Slow Weapon.
Stats including Totems: 2295 AP/97 hit/29,64 crit (physical)/18,64 crit (casts), Spelldmg 688(892 with FT)

Didn´t use Spirit Wolfes or Fire Totems, used only ES, no FS to keep things more simple.

Three runs WF/WF and WF/FT 3,5 min. each (Recount)

WF/WF:
1651 dps
1690 dps
1695 dps

WF/FT:
1686 dps
1714 dps
1660 dps

Average hits on casts + LL:---------WF/WF--------WF/FT
Lava Lash (non-crit/crit)------------450/900------520/1100
ES (non-crit/crit)-------------------1350/1900----1500/2100
LB (non-crit/crit)-------------------1600/2400----1700/2600

Just to give an impression how it looks at lvl 71.

Always used same priorities.

Side notes: I tried Static Shock, but never got it above 2-2,7% of total dmg, so I skipped it.
Mana with Water Shield + Totem is really bad, I always was bone dry before SR came out of cooldown, thats
why every test was about 3,5 min. until I was oom.

One more thing: There are two great trinkets easy to obtain via Quests in Borean Tundra. One is 38 Crit. and chance on critical cast to proc 10 sec. +167 crit. That one works really great for DK´s and Enhancement Shamans ;-)

Sorry for every Typo/Grammar...I tried my best.

Could Malan have been experiencing what he did as a result of another Enhancement Shaman being present? Could someone test this on the PTR or on Beta, PTR is too laggy for my laptop and I'm not on my desktop at the mo' so can't check myself.

I know that they did not include the pally mechanic, but that does not mean that they could not. It would make haste much more valuable for us.

You can use the Enh Shammy addon ShockAndAwe (the WotLK version of DisqoDice) to show you your maelstrom weapon procs alongside your stormstrike, windfury, lavalash, lavaburst and shocks cooldowns.

For MW its just observing the count figure on the buff so its very accurate.

No I was the only shaman in the raid (10 man naxx). I had just been rezzed, was eating, and then ran into a pull of some Aboms or something, I forget what exactly. As I ran in, Shock and Awe lit up indicating a full 5 stack of MW and I hit a LB before I was even in melee range.

It only happened once though and I have no combat log or anything to examine why.

With Replenishment, Mana Spring, Water Shield (Static Shock isn't good enough for points imo) we should be fine in raid environments and in solo we generally can auto-attack mobs to death. Plus you'll regen between combat - shouldn't be a problem!

Also, WotLK Mail gear might actually be worth using, so we'll generate more mana through that. Annoying that Replenishment was changed to only regen .5% base mana - annoying for all mana-users.

Except the entire reason they made this change was to reduce the value of extreme hasted fast weapons, why would they want to reverse that by incorporating the pally mechanic?

Seems like a non-issue to me.


Issue I am worried about is the mana one. MW seems to be working as intended but the other consequence of losing all the spell crits from using it with MW is that we will have significantly less Elemental Focus uptime. During a raid with refreshment available it shouldn't be an issue but when solo or in small groups or when PvPing it will probably become an issue.

We can switch to using Water Shield when that happens but then the 3 points placed in Static Shock lose all their value. I've posted on this before and I really think it should be something for the developers to consider which would be to add Water Shield to Static Shock. True, we can't do any more then suggest things to the developers and I have already posted on that a few times but what I would like to know is how is mana for everyone?

I saw one post already that someone found their mana use with the new MW was unsustainable without Water Shield and even then it was rough. Is that something that others are finding too? How is it during a raid? When solo? When PvPing?

If it's an issue, it's worth giving feedback on it and asking for some help from the developers. Also if it is an issue will it be worth taking those 3 points in Static Shock while leveling?

What rotations are people using with the latest build? Im kind of lost in the cooldowns here. Right now, i dont have any macros set up, just manually using my abilities, prioritizing SS, MW/LB, Lava last, Shocks.

I scanned the last few pages and didnt see much in the way of rotations so apologies if this has been covered.

On the PTR I use this build and rotation:
- Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

00.00.00: Stormstrike
00.01.50: Flame Shock
00.03.00: Lava Lash
00.04.50:
00.06.00:
00.07.50: Earth Shock
00.09.00: Stormstrike
00.10.50: Lava Lash
00.12.00:
00.13.50: Flame Shock
00.15.00:
00.16.50: Lava Lash
00.18.00: Stormstrike
00.19.50: Earth Shock
00.21.00:
00.22.50: Lava Lash
00.24.00:
00.25.50: Flame Shock
00.27.00: Stormstrike
00.28.50: Lava Lash
00.30.00:
00.31.50: Earth Shock
00.33.00:
00.34.50: Lava Lash
00.36.00: Stormstrike
00.37.50: Flame Shock
00.39.00:
00.40.50: Lava Lash
00.42.00:
00.43.50: Earth Shock
00.45.00: Stormstrke

... and repeat... All the blank areas are where you can refresh Totems, cast Water Shield or obviously use up LB procs. Of course in reality it doesn't work like this. Using MW stacks up takes prio if the target is currently debuffed with Stormstrike in my opinion. I'd imagine you'd want to aim for as much uptime on ED as possible.

I've been doing a priority rotation at 80. Storm Strike, Earth Shock, Lava Lash. If MW is up, MW takes priority after Storm Strike. Works well enough, you get a good cycle going that way and I think I was doing over 3k dps for most of 10man naxx last night.

Manually Acks, moving my finger fast gives me practice in the boudoir!

1700 dps sounds about right. Remember that the level 80 premades are in what would be equivilent to Gladiator/non heroic PvE gear. If you were to use full PvE gear you'd get much higher results. In my Sunwell gear on the PTR with a Ret Pally (w/o Blessing of Might) I'm hitting 1.9-2k~ dps.

Malan is right though. With the new PPM system of MW it will take priority over everything. Considering SS does around the same damage as a non crit LB on the PTR I'll use SS first; then LB. It's whatever feels right for you. If it helps though - my cooldown on SS on PTR is some 7.5 seconds.

I was over at MMO playing with their calculator. It's probably an error, but whether 1 point or 5, there is no change to the ability, saying there is a 20% reduction in speed. How is it supposed to scale?

First off I would like to thank you for taking a moment to read the last few pages of the thread before asking your question....

That said,

It's a PPM mechanic that no longer affects Lava Burst.

PPM's are hidden numbers but for 5 points it seems to currently be 12.4, if you put less points in the talent then your PPM will be lower. Someone reported that with 1 point in MW they regularily lost their stacks before they could get to 5 points (so over 30 seconds between procs).

I think you are missing one thing here Rounced. If they had the PPM scale with haste, it would not prefer fast or slow weapons, just haste. What it would do is give SOME scaling to our DPS from a haste build. My gut says crit would be better to a certain % then haste, but obviously I dont have a way to test this.

I actually like the haste scaling for one other reason, my understanding (might be wrong here) is that hunters now scale decently with haste as well. If thats the case our gear can overlap more.


Im going to hop onto the PTR and test the proc rate with the new MW. Assuming it does not increase from haste as other tests have shown, I am going with 2 weaons, standard build

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Yes I understand what PPM are, and I understand that the PPM is approximately 12.4. However the MMO Calculator is apparently broken and Wowhead's is out of date. Given the debate on the last 104 pages (I've been following this since I found the thread), I was hoping to determine whether it was worth taking MW or not.

I apologize if I overlooked something that was obvious to the rest of the posters

Except that they want us to use Windfury Weapon as our mainhand imbue and WF weapon's scaling with haste is horrific due to the cooldown. If they allow MW to scale with haste then they will quickly get back to the same situation that exists now where fast weapons with a ton of haste and Flametongue are the best option which leads back to Enhancement Shaman wanting caster gear which is why MW was changed in the first place.