I've started to run the PPM testing on the test dummy, but I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly.
I'm attacking the level 60 dummy to avoid parry and dodging and have a single 2.6 speed equipped on the MH. No haste at all (i.e. no WF Weapon, Haste from armor, Flurry) and no weapon imbues. Will this setup work for a good PPM test or should I adjust something?
Should be fine, consistency is all you really want.
As for the under 1 second thing it looks like Buddy is right which means Blizzard may have tiered the PPM. Ran 5 minutes with a 1.3 with enough haste to push it under 1 second with just Windfury and it showed my 81 procs or a PPM of 16.2
Why would they do that? Well they do want us to use a fast weapon in the offhand (or at least for that to be a viable alternative) and leaving the PPM set to 12.4 means a 1.3 weapon (with 50% haste) would only have a 16.5% chance per hit. Upping the proc rate for a weapon that drops below 1 second increases the chance for that 1.3 to 23% which might be enough to make a fast offhand superior to a slow offhand with flametongue.
Hopefully Tukez can add that into the Sim and we'll see how it works out.
I am currently in a naxx10 raid with a spriest for replenishment and I just wanted to report with mostly the premade gear still I am having 0 mana issues. Taking full advantage of every ability on cd and using LS I am mostly at about 50% mana when SR comes back off cd. Seems if you have an honest replenishment then mana will be absolutely fine. (BoWis and MST included.)
I'll be doing multiple tests at 5m each for different speed weapons. When I was playing around with the setup before I did notice that I was barely pushing 10ppm with a 2.6 speed weapon. I'll need to find another 2.6 speed weapon because I had totally forgotten about mongoose. I'll update when I'm finished with the testing.
Last edited by polocabbit : 10/05/08 at 4:54 AM.
"Doubt is the thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won.” —William Shakespeare
Can unarm attacks or non-melee wepon attacks such as attaks with skinning knife get a maelstrom proc? Don't have a beta acc to test but when I loot at the talent on wowhead it says "Requires One-Handed Axes, Two-Handed Axes, One-Handed Maces, Two-Handed Maces, Staves, One-Handed Exotics, Two-Handed Exotics, Fist Weapons, Miscellaneous, Daggers"
Can unarm attacks or non-melee wepon attacks such as attaks with skinning knife get a maelstrom proc? Don't have a beta acc to test but when I loot at the talent on wowhead it says "Requires One-Handed Axes, Two-Handed Axes, One-Handed Maces, Two-Handed Maces, Staves, One-Handed Exotics, Two-Handed Exotics, Fist Weapons, Miscellaneous, Daggers"
What the extra information on the WoWHead tooltip basically comes down to is that as long as you have something equipped in either your main hand or your off-hand, that something can proc Maelstrom weapon.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Doubt I did this right, but I was messing around with rotations and what not on the PvP premade realm and I wanted to attempt to contribute.
Stats: (Static, out of combat but WF, Strength of Earth, and FLametongue totems down)
AP: 2568
Crit: 26.89
Wpn Speed: 2.13/2.13
Hit: 54
Spell Dmg: 1268
Spell Crit: 21.18%
Talent Build: Talent Build
When I was using a MW priority rotation such as SS > ES > LL and throwing in Chain Lightning as long as SS debuff was up, I would come always come around 1600 DPS. I would Start with a full mana bar and use it and a Shamanistic Rage to fill it back up, and then deplete that one. That's when I would stop. I would come out with recount results such as this: Recount Results 1
I then tried a rotation that tried to throw in Lava Burst+FS crit whenever 2 conditions would occur:
-WF 3 second CD was up and I did not have a full stack of MW
-All abilities were on CD and I still did not have a full stack of MW
Upon doing this I would come up with Recount results such as this: Recount Results 2
My mana seemed to last longer when I was cycling in Lava bursts and which let me DPS longer. It also contributed to more Elemental Devastation uptime.
Depending on his spell power. But considering the stats stated above using CL over LB would be quite a dps & mana waste.
Raogrimm would you mind trying with LB in place of CL and an extremely fast offhand and some haste gear to see comparitive dps results?
The PPM increase in Maelstrom weapon might be sufficent to drop a slow offhand.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
Raogrimm thank you for the testing and for linking your results.
One of the biggest reasons you are seeing better results with using FS + LvB even when you have to stop to cast it is because of the stats on the pre-mades gear. They are gemmed horribly for Enhancement dps and that is what is showing in your results. It's the same issue that Hothgar keeps ignoring with his testing on the Beta Forums.
Your paperdoll is showing 21% melee crit, which since you have 432 agility, means you have around a 16% spell crit rate. That is why you are having mana issues and also why you are seeing such better results from using a straight cast LvB.
With only 16% spell crit you have barely any Elemental Devastation uptime and your Elemental Focus proc rate will also be very low. Using LvB allows you to force a crit giving you 10 seconds of decent melee crit rates as well as reducing the mana cost of your next 2 spells significantly, that is what is overcoming the damage lost by stopping to cast not the "incredible" damage from lava burst itself.
If the Pre-made was gemmed and geared for PvE it would be running around 30% melee crit and 23-24% spell crit and then Elemental Devastation wouldn't need LvB to force it quite as much and you would have more Elemental Focus procs and mana won't be quite as much of an issue.
All of that said I am concerned about mana. In PvP our crit rate will be very low and without those crits using our abilities is going to quickly blow through our small mana pool. Water Shield will help but without the ability to proc the shield unless we are being hit the passive regen from Water Shield won't be enough to sustain our mana. A good healer could easily shut us down by just healing through the damage and then CCing us when we pop SR. That's why I really think they need to change Static Shock to also work with Water Shield.
Holy shit... Well thought. With water shield instead of Lightning Shield (if it could also increase the number of stacks to avoid having to refresh it too often).
Now how would it work? If it worked as lightning shield and on the same proc rate (6%).
Using 2.6 speed weapons and considering 100% Flurry uptime (with current water shield numbers) it would amount to 21 procs over 180 seconds or 203*21= 4263 mana gained.
This is of course without taking into account WF/LavaL/Stormstrik/haste pots/haste gear/Bloodlust and other extra haste.
Could be extremely interesting. Have you already submitted it?
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
Holy shit... Well thought. With water shield instead of Lightning Shield (if it could also increase the number of stacks to avoid having to refresh it too often).
Now how would it work? If it worked as lightning shield and on the same proc rate (6%).
Using 2.6 speed weapons and considering 100% Flurry uptime (with current water shield numbers) it would amount to 21 procs over 180 seconds or 203*21= 4263 mana gained.
This is of course without taking into account WF/LavaL/Stormstrik/haste pots/haste gear/Bloodlust and other extra haste.
Could be extremely interesting. Have you already submitted it?
Having Static Shock affect Water Shield or having the Feral Spirit wolves regenerate Mana as well as Health are both very good suggestions: I hope someone does submit it on the beta forums.
I think Static Shock affecting water shield would be a great idea, but I'll let those with more experience say if it would be a solid solution or a red herring.
If you want a comparison using 500 spell damage once more only taking white attacks into account:
(500*0.66)+(287)= 457 damage per orb. Same ppm. Over 180 seconds 21 procs that's a 9587 damage loss or 53 dps.
If I go oom I would trade 53 dps any day to go full mana and then reswitch to Lightning shield. It's not a half bad idea.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
That'd be assuming mana is actually a problem, which it really isn't, if you don't go overboard with spamming chain lightning every MW. Without replenishment there's some minor issues, but that'll become a non issue when you get some Naxx mail and boost your mana.
I could see that trash/heroics it would boost dps for multi mob pulls. It's actually a nice option since we don't have a whirlwind or slice n dice like mechanic that lets us take advantage of our melee damage to multiple mobs.
Though personally, I think that's one item we definitely lack as Enh shaman, a multi mob melee attack. Hunters get multi-shot, warriors can cleave and whirlwind, and rogues get slice and dice. While we have totems, the aoe damage from magma totem was marginal at best.
That'd be assuming mana is actually a problem, which it really isn't, if you don't go overboard with spamming chain lightning every MW. Without replenishment there's some minor issues, but that'll become a non issue when you get some Naxx mail and boost your mana.
Refreshment won't always be available especially in a 5/10 man and that means Water Shield and an invalidation of the 3 points in Static Shock and there is always PvP and giving those points some value there would be nice too.
Adding Water Shield onto Static Shock gives those points value all the time instead of only when you are using Lightning Shield and the tradeoff seems fair, either more mana returned or more damage. They also don't have to let the Water Shield aspect increase the number of charges since then to get more mana we would have to spend more GCDs refreshing it lending even more value to the damage aspect of the talent.
Looks like we will need more testing to see exactly how it is working. My numbers were very consistant but were nowhere near those, I did have mongoose on my first test which was a 2.8 speed mace but the others were all without mongoose being involved. Hopefully more people will do more testing until we get more statistically viable results.
I specced 5/5 MW while skipping flurry, used a 2.0 speed weapon that I bought off the AH, and no gear or procs that would provide me haste. I then turned on combat logging, auto attacked the level 60 dummy, then went to sleep. I've attached the combat logs (one stripped to show only myself, and the other stripped to show only my MW procs). About two hours in, it would seem my weapon broke, and MW stopped proccing.
My first attack was at 10/5 00:54:33.640, and my last proc was at 10/5 02:55:33.734. Total number of procs seems to be 1191, over 121 minutes looks to be 9.84 PPM. Feel free to look through the log and see if I made any mistakes with my numbers, though.
Edit: If it matters, this was at level 70.
Originally Posted by ebbv
I like to arrange gingerbread men like they're running away from me in terror and then crush them all.
Ah ok, tnx Rounced. I didn't have an 80 with PvP gear to work with so I figured that was the next best thing. Definitely see what you're saying.
Yeah, I used Chain Lightning instead of Lightning bolt to simulate the mana I'd be using if there were adds and I'd hit them, of course the dmg doesn't reflect this but I also wanted to see how long I could keep up.
One of the reasons I tried this was because I was worried about Elemental Devastation's uptime dropping by a good bit, but from what you guys are saying it should be fine.
Static Shock proc'ing water shield would be pretty epic.
What are you guy's thoughts on Unleashed Rage costing 5 pts for what a Death Knight and a MM Hunter can do for 1 or 2? If they dropped UR to 2 points you could easily get Static shock without worry of losing anything else. Something like this: Talent Build
Wondered if you guys thought UR needed a change now that other classes have an equivalent ability for less points.
Ah ok, tnx Rounced. I didn't have an 80 with PvP gear to work with so I figured that was the next best thing. Definitely see what you're saying.
Yeah, I used Chain Lightning instead of Lightning bolt to simulate the mana I'd be using if there were adds and I'd hit them, of course the dmg doesn't reflect this but I also wanted to see how long I could keep up.
One of the reasons I tried this was because I was worried about Elemental Devastation's uptime dropping by a good bit, but from what you guys are saying it should be fine.
Static Shock proc'ing water shield would be pretty epic.
What are you guy's thoughts on Unleashed Rage costing 5 pts for what a Death Knight and a MM Hunter can do for 1 or 2? If they dropped UR to 2 points you could easily get Static shock without worry of losing anything else. Something like this: Talent Build
Wondered if you guys thought UR needed a change now that other classes have an equivalent ability for less points.
Rao, I doubt they will do this. They have sadi that the cross class talent cost comparrison is not something they worry too much about, and that each class is setup the way it is for a reason.
That having been said it would be a nice thing to have. Not huge, but nice
For everyone,
I posted yesterday about ES GCD issues I was having with my priority rotation (MW/SS/ES/LL). How do you guys deal with the extra 1.5s that I keep hiting on ES? Has anyone tried the ES glyph to see if that fixes it? Is the 2% extra damage better than the WF or SS glyphs (Im assuming 1% haste for SoE is our best glyph).
Ironically, Death Knights are bitching about Icy Talons, which takes 6 talent points while our version only takes 2.
Not really, we only get 4% haste for our 2 points they get 20% for their 6 and they get a "selfless" buff of an additional 5% melee haste for themselves. So they get 4.16% haste per point and we get 2%.....
I'm sure the developers plan on rectifying this but are just waiting to see where our dps falls out with the latest changes before doing anything about it. Much harder to reign in a change after it has already been announced. If our dps is competitive now then they will probably just pull something from somewhere and add it back in with the selfless buff talents (like pulling the 5% off Flurry again and then giving us back 3/5% personal haste with Improved Windfury Totem) or give a buff that doesn't affect our dps but would help with mana conservation or with defense or is more of a color aspect (like adding a 3/6/9/12/15% movement speed buff with unleashed rage - just don't let it stack with other mvt speed increases, like ghostwolf, and it would balance fine). If we are low then that will be where they will make up the difference.
But none of that will probably happen till they get our dps a bit more in line compared to the other classes.
The major issue with the Frost tree is some of those points in Icy Talons have no decent DPS alternative - unlike Unleashed Rage, which we can skip entirely if it is redundant due to our raid composition. If they are grouped with an enhance shaman, they get 5% haste for 6 points, which is obviously pretty weak. But it's better than +zero AP for 5 points, which is what we get with a Blood DK or Marks hunter in the raid.
10/05/08, 2:02 AM
